AngelFaith
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
I rolled the bones. You for me.
My forgottendreamer[Mo0:12]
Posts: 641
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Post by AngelFaith on Oct 12, 2010 4:39:11 GMT -5
Personally, the soppiness and idealisation of their relationship bores me. I find the whole thing a bit unrealistic and am critical of the whole idea of a 'perfect (hetero) love', that is often perpetuated. I just find it refreshing to look at media and film images more critically, Buffy included. But Bangel isn't really a "perfect" love. If it were portrayed as such they would have ended up together, but they don't. They don't even really give us anything solid to say that they will end up together (unless you count Buffy's "Cookie-dough" speech, which only hints at it very slightly). |
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Josh
Novice Witch
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 265
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Post by Josh on Oct 12, 2010 7:49:24 GMT -5
I don't think Buffy is a victim at all. Yes, she is 17 and Angel was in his 20s when he was sired, but that doesn't mean anything. They both resisted, Angel moreso than Buffy initially and it's not like they rushed into it at all. Hell, Angel was prepared to leave Sunnydale for her protection and to help the world the night they ended up sleeping together. Not to mention that by just labeling it as wrong because she was 17 completely ignores the fact of how much more grown up and mature Buffy is than anyone else. Yeah, she has her moments of immaturity, but the fact of the matter is that she had saved many lifes and gone through so many battles by time she slept together. And as others have mentioned, age is irrelevant in the Buffyverse and, not trying to start a fight or offend you, but this post does just come off as a senseless Angel bash since there seemed to be no issues brought up with Xander/Mrs. French, Xander/Impata, Xander/Anya, or Connor/Cordelia on the age front and there were also no issues brought up with Buffy/Spike considering how unhealthy and abusive that "relationship" was. No, YOU think age is completely irrelevant. I disagree. "A senseless angel bash". That is rude. Since when does another fan's opinion become senseless? You can disagree all you want, you're entitled to your opinion. But i wouldn't call it senseless just because i dont agree. What i was really concerned with was Angel's age when he was sired. The fact that he is century's old makes it even more disgusting. And that is also where the issue of responsibility comes into play. But that's only my opinion. I guess it's not like she could get pregnant. I guess we're supposed to assume vampires dont get STD's. Oh well. I'm sorry, but the whole Angel/ Buffy thing was over-romantised bullsh**. As an adult, I can see that now. And dont start tring to say I'm not a real fan coz Buffy's all i watch. I'm sorry if it came off as rude or condescending. I just meant I didn't see why you were bringing up Buffy/Angel, but not the countless other relationships that were clearly had a huge age difference in the argument of things being wrong because of age. And I don't know why you'd think I'd accuse you of not being a fan.  I'm well aware there are tons of fans who aren't Buffy/Angel shippers. In fact, I'm actually not one. Was Buffy/Angel the relationship I preferred the most of her relationships? Absolutely. But for me, Buffy was best when she wasn't in a relationship. And as it's been pointed out, both Buffy and Angel are supernatural beings which changes things immensely. To me, with what the two of them have gone through by time they do sleep together, it's viewed as the same thing the difference between a 40 year old dating a 30 year old. It's irrelevant. Again, I'm sorry if I offended you in my previous post, but I didn't mean to. I wasn't calling it senseless just because you didn't agree. I said it's coming off as such because of the lack of mention of other relationships that had just as much of a gap if not more (as I said at the beginning of this post). |
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Miss. Rogueh
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
Orangey's Twin!
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 725
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Post by Miss. Rogueh on Oct 14, 2010 20:34:43 GMT -5
I don't think they worked well together. If you look at Angel how he changed through the series you will see that Buffy (as she changed) just don't work together, there is to much push and pull, and drama for them to really be together...
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Post by nl197 on Oct 15, 2010 3:32:04 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but the whole Angel/ Buffy thing was over-romantised bullsh**. As an adult, I can see that now. And dont start tring to say I'm not a real fan coz Buffy's all i watch. I'm well aware there are tons of fans who aren't Buffy/Angel shippers. In fact, I'm actually not one. Was Buffy/Angel the relationship I preferred the most of her relationships? Absolutely. But for me, Buffy was best when she wasn't in a relationship. I'll go one step further than that: The last thing I could ever be called is a shipper of anything. Period. In fact, the term "shipper" isn't only annoying to me, but all of the acronyms for the couples (Bangel, Spuffy, etc) have become the one sole pet-peeve of mine in the Buffyverse fandom. I loathe the very sound and spelling of those words and I cannot take them seriously, except for thinking those acronyms are seriously stupid. Note that this has nothing, and I mean nothing to do with the relationships themselves, just those shorthand terms alone. I'm not much of a shorthand text / messenger type either. I pretty much just think "spell the f**king words out, it's not that hard", and that's where it comes from. One reason I am not a shipper, is there is an inherent bias that seems to go beyond having a particular favorite individual character. If someone "ships" a particular couple, that creates a bias that from what I've observed overrides everything and it becomes either the sole reason to like something, or the sole reason not to like something if that person doesn't like a particular ship...and I'm cringing just typing that word out. I have no preference of one relationship over another on either show, not to that extent anyway. Willow and Oz? Great. Willow and Tara? Great too. Unfortunately it seems to be one OR the other with a lot of fans meaning it's Buffy and Angel, OR Buffy and Spike, and if you like one you're against the other and everything about it, everything it stands for, and that kind of bias bothers me a great deal. It's hard to have a conversation when such a strong bias exists like that. |
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jtmaster13
Common Vampire
"Whenever Giles sends me on a mission he always says please. Then afterwards I get a cookie!"[Mo0:9]
Posts: 98
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Post by jtmaster13 on Oct 15, 2010 9:42:55 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but the whole Angel/ Buffy thing was over-romantised bullsh**. As an adult, I can see that now. And dont start tring to say I'm not a real fan coz Buffy's all i watch. I'm well aware there are tons of fans who aren't Buffy/Angel shippers. In fact, I'm actually not one. Was Buffy/Angel the relationship I preferred the most of her relationships? Absolutely. But for me, Buffy was best when she wasn't in a relationship. I'll go one step further than that: The last thing I could ever be called is a shipper of anything. Period. In fact, the term "shipper" isn't only annoying to me, but all of the acronyms for the couples (Bangel, Spuffy, etc) have become the one sole pet-peeve of mine in the Buffyverse fandom. I loathe the very sound and spelling of those words and I cannot take them seriously, except for thinking those acronyms are seriously stupid. Note that this has nothing, and I mean nothing to do with the relationships themselves, just those shorthand terms alone. I'm not much of a shorthand text / messenger type either. I pretty much just think "spell the f**king words out, it's not that hard", and that's where it comes from. One reason I am not a shipper, is there is an inherent bias that seems to go beyond having a particular favorite individual character. If someone "ships" a particular couple, that creates a bias that from what I've observed overrides everything and it becomes either the sole reason to like something, or the sole reason not to like something if that person doesn't like a particular ship...and I'm cringing just typing that word out. I have no preference of one relationship over another on either show, not to that extent anyway. Willow and Oz? Great. Willow and Tara? Great too. Unfortunately it seems to be one OR the other with a lot of fans meaning it's Buffy and Angel, OR Buffy and Spike, and if you like one you're against the other and everything about it, everything it stands for, and that kind of bias bothers me a great deal. It's hard to have a conversation when such a strong bias exists like that. I agree with you completely on what you just said. I think in a way every single couple on the show had their pros and their cons, but they all worked great in some way, shape or form. Each relationship contributed to the show and also helped those characters grow more in some way. Example, Oz and Willow, they had a great relationship that ended badly when Oz made a bad decision, which everyone makes bad decisions in their lives. Their relationship suffered, but in the end Willow grew to be a stronger person and she allowed herself after time to move on, and she found Tara. Willow and Tara had a great relationship too. With Buffy and Angel, it was Buffy's first love. She gave Angel her heart, body and soul and loved him more than anything. After everything that those two went through, it was a test of her strength for her to move on, and eventually she did. I don't think one couple is superior to the others in this show. I think one of the key points in having all these different couples was to show the diversity. How you can go from having one type of relationship, to a different one entirely. And each one of those relationships showed something new, and helped the characters to develop. |
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Post by nl197 on Oct 15, 2010 12:55:29 GMT -5
I think in a way every single couple on the show had their pros and their cons, but they all worked great in some way, shape or form. Each relationship contributed to the show and also helped those characters grow more in some way. Example, Oz and Willow, they had a great relationship that ended badly when Oz made a bad decision, which everyone makes bad decisions in their lives. Their relationship suffered, but in the end Willow grew to be a stronger person and she allowed herself after time to move on, and she found Tara. Willow and Tara had a great relationship too. With Buffy and Angel, it was Buffy's first love. She gave Angel her heart, body and soul and loved him more than anything. After everything that those two went through, it was a test of her strength for her to move on, and eventually she did. I don't think one couple is superior to the others in this show. I think one of the key points in having all these different couples was to show the diversity. How you can go from having one type of relationship, to a different one entirely. And each one of those relationships showed something new, and helped the characters to develop. And there you go, putting it far more elegantly than I ever could, though mine was basically a rant anyway. You're spot-on, 100%. Thank you.  |
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jtmaster13
Common Vampire
"Whenever Giles sends me on a mission he always says please. Then afterwards I get a cookie!"[Mo0:9]
Posts: 98
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Post by jtmaster13 on Oct 15, 2010 13:08:16 GMT -5
And there you go, putting it far more elegantly than I ever could, though mine was basically a rant anyway. You're spot-on, 100%. Thank you. No problem, I was just agreeing with what you said. |
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Post by nl197 on Oct 15, 2010 13:24:20 GMT -5
It's just saying things like that can easily get someone to go the other way and respond by trying to tear it all apart, since some people put so much stake in the shipping issue.
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jtmaster13
Common Vampire
"Whenever Giles sends me on a mission he always says please. Then afterwards I get a cookie!"[Mo0:9]
Posts: 98
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Post by jtmaster13 on Oct 15, 2010 13:49:54 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm with you on that. All the relationships in the show had some meaning and were there for a reason.
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