Buffy and Angel- was it wrong??????????

[nokomis]

As much as i love Bangel i've begun to realise that the whole relationship between them was really wrong and bordering paedophilia.

Buffy was only 17 when she had sex with a 200-and-something year old man. What age are you even allowed to have sex in California? In England you have to be 16. Anyway, Angel was way too old for Buffy even if we take into account the age he was when he was sired.

I just think it was really wrong. Angel wasn't so innocent and sweet as he was made out to be. He took advantage of a young girl. At certain times he was keeping her from going to school. He should've known better. He seduced Buffy and had the nerve to hang around at her school. He's a grown man!

And Buffy shouldn't have been out doing vampires at that age.

Can anyone else see the wrongness of their relationship or am i just being old-fashioned?

[nl197]

Wow....that's incredibly one-sided.

He didn't take advantage of her at all. The whole thing was mutual and they both resisted it at first. They both knew it wasn't smart, and they both tried to be as careful as they could. You make it sound like Buffy is some kind of victim in this, which, considering what the series is, and how early in the show this began, clearly isn't the case. Somehow I don't see Joss Whedon making the hero of the show a teenage girl and then having her be some victim to an older vampire at the same time.

This looks like yet another attempt to 'Angel bash'.

I wonder, if this was as wrong as you say, are you more accepting of Spike?

I ask not only because that particular story was leaps and bounds above this one on a level of disgust, but also there is a huge pro-Spike / anti-Angel bias among fans and I want to know if that has affected this at all.

[janas]

I suggest you watch "Surprise" (BtVS 2-13) where you can see the attitude of Angel and his fears. He has always been, what pushed towards prudence. He has not taken advantage of a little girl. But it seems that now it is fashionable to describe Angel as a monster rapist and pedophile.

Now I think what has happened in the fourth season of ATS, where an emotionally unstable teenager, is seduced by an adult woman...but they all blame the guy...and I still wonder why this attitude.

[Scarygothgirl]

Wasn't Angel supposed to have been around 17 when he was sired anyway? And why does no-one question the ethics of a thousand year old ex-demon dating a teenage boy(Anya and Xander incase anyone didn't get that)?

[Randi Giles]

Oct 9, 2010 6:09:28 GMT -5 janas said:

Now I think what has happened in the fourth season of ATS, where an emotionally unstable teenager, is seduced by an adult woman...but they all blame the guy...and I still wonder why this attitude.

If you're talking about Connor and Cordelia their age difference never really bothered me. It was the whole incest thing. Even though I know she was really his mother, but she was the closest thing to it. I also think the blame went both ways.

Oct 9, 2010 6:55:21 GMT -5 Scarygothgirl said:

Wasn't Angel supposed to have been around 17 when he was sired anyway? And why does no-one question the ethics of a thousand year old ex-demon dating a teenage boy(Anya and Xander in case anyone didn't get that)?

I think he was suppose to be about 23 or 24. I do agree however. I'll see fans ask if Angel was a pedophile but they never consider Anya and Xander. Age is pretty irrelevant in the Buffyverse when it comes to human and demons in a relationships. Ha! Is that considered a interrelationship?

Edit - Oh yeah! I don't remember anyone complaining about Wes and Cordy's potential relationship either. Their age gap is wider than Buffy and Angel(when he was sired) or did I miss that.

[The Night Lord]

Angel was actually 26 years old when he was sired

[janas]

Oct 9, 2010 7:08:32 GMT -5 Randi Giles said:

Oct 9, 2010 6:09:28 GMT -5 janas said:

If you're talking about Connor and Cordelia their age difference never really bothered me. It was the whole incest thing. Even though I know she was really his mother, but she was the closest thing to it. I also think the blame went both ways.

Yes, I am referring to Connor and "Cordelia". I do not think it was the fault of both, What I have seen, is that a teenager is not mature, has been used (without his knowledge) as a tool to achieve another purpose. The age difference, here is meant as a difference "compared to the experience of life". The whole story "Connor-Cordelia" I have always seen as a "violence against a teenager oblivious to what was really happening".

I've always been bewildered by the fact that the fans hate Connor for having sex with "Cordelia", while, in my opinion, he loved most as a victim, and judging from what he was upset in the "Home", I think the damage has been huge for him.

[The Night Lord]

Well, it was kinda funny how Connor looks to be about 16 at the end of season 3 and I think he was intented to be at least 16, then whoa, 3 months later in season 4, he's 18 years old, jumping up 2 years in three months, just in time to bang Mother Dearest and make it legal

Edit: And we have never known Wesley's age, have we? I say at the time of BtVS season 3, he's probably mid-twenties, perhaps around the same age as Gunn or older

[janas]

Oct 9, 2010 7:53:00 GMT -5 The Night Lord said:

Well, it was kinda funny how Connor looks to be about 16 at the end of season 3 and I think he was intented to be at least 16, then whoa, 3 months later in season 4, he's 18 years old, jumping up 2 years in three months, just in time to bang Mother Dearest and make it legal

Edit: And we have never known Wesley's age, have we? I say at the time of BtVS season 3, he's probably mid-twenties, perhaps around the same age as Gunn or older

yes right, you caught exactly what I meant.

For Wesley, I do not think that has ever been called the age.
Compared with Giles, he has always been defined as "the young watcher". Cordelia, in the third season is 18 years. But your observation is right, in "The Prom", Wes asks Giles the "permission" to woo Cordelia, and there is a reference to the fact that he is older than age. Even here, I think you always refer to mature. Gunn, however, is much younger. When he meets Angel for the first time, I think he has 20 years.

[The Night Lord]

Well, at the end of Angel in 'Not Fade Away', Gunn is about 26 years old. Funnily enough, he was sired at the same age as Angel. Wesley, I assume is older than Gunn, so perhaps about 30-32 at the end of Angel?

[Josh]

I don't think Buffy is a victim at all. Yes, she is 17 and Angel was in his 20s when he was sired, but that doesn't mean anything. They both resisted, Angel moreso than Buffy initially and it's not like they rushed into it at all. Hell, Angel was prepared to leave Sunnydale for her protection and to help the world the night they ended up sleeping together. Not to mention that by just labeling it as wrong because she was 17 completely ignores the fact of how much more grown up and mature Buffy is than anyone else. Yeah, she has her moments of immaturity, but the fact of the matter is that she had saved many lifes and gone through so many battles by time she slept together.

And as others have mentioned, age is irrelevant in the Buffyverse and, not trying to start a fight or offend you, but this post does just come off as a senseless Angel bash since there seemed to be no issues brought up with Xander/Mrs. French, Xander/Impata, Xander/Anya, or Connor/Cordelia on the age front and there were also no issues brought up with Buffy/Spike considering how unhealthy and abusive that "relationship" was.

[Randi Giles]

Oct 9, 2010 7:53:00 GMT -5 The Night Lord said:

Well, it was kinda funny how Connor looks to be about 16 at the end of season 3 and I think he was intented to be at least 16, then whoa, 3 months later in season 4, he's 18 years old, jumping up 2 years in three months, just in time to bang Mother Dearest and make it legal

I'm happy I'm not the only one to notice that. It's weird though. When V.K. first appeared he fit the part to play a sixteen year old. In the beginning of season three he fit the part for a eighteen year old. Connor was sorased and they didn't even have to change actors like the soap operas. Lol.

[joxerlives]

I've not problem with Connor/Cordy, as long as people aren't blood relations it's fine, ok with a girl wanting a daddy figure as long as she doesn't actually want her daddy.

Yeah Buffy/Angel is technically speaking statuatory rape as indeed Xander/Faith and Willow/Oz might be.

But no, these are exceptional circumstances so it's ok for people to have sex with various supernatural entities in the course of the show

[jellymoff]

If I was Buffy's dad then there's no way she would have been dating Angel, Vampire or not! He's too old for her!

But in this story it fits, and it is done in a way that is very sensitive to the weirdness of their age. As we explore what is going on in season 8, we can even begin to wonder if they ever had a choice in the matter. Perhaps they could not help but be together.

[Josh]

Oct 9, 2010 11:28:04 GMT -5 jellymoff said:

If I was Buffy's dad then there's no way she would have been dating Angel, Vampire or not! He's too old for her!

But in this story it fits, and it is done in a way that is very sensitive to the weirdness of their age. As we explore what is going on in season 8, we can even begin to wonder if they ever had a choice in the matter. Perhaps they could not help but be together.

Well Buffy's dad is kind of a non-presence in her life and Joyce didn't even know Buffy and Angel were dating (or still having contact even) until a few weeks after they slept together so she was way out of the loop herself.

As for the Season 8 thing, I haven't read past the Twilight arc since I only read the TPB so try not to spoil me if I'm wrong or somethign else is revealed in the last five issues, but I'm really skeptical on the whole story of that is presented being the actual reason for things. It just kind of reminds me too much of Cordelia ascending in Angel Season 3 only for it to be a plan by something evil to set much worse things in motion.

[nl197]

I've not read either series' comic follow-ups, so when people mention not liking characters because of events that take place in them, I am completely in the dark about it.

[jtmaster13]

Oct 9, 2010 4:08:18 GMT -5 nokomis said:

As much as i love Bangel i've begun to realise that the whole relationship between them was really wrong and bordering paedophilia.

Buffy was only 17 when she had sex with a 200-and-something year old man. What age are you even allowed to have sex in California? In England you have to be 16. Anyway, Angel was way too old for Buffy even if we take into account the age he was when he was sired.

I don't think age really matters at all. I mean come on, people who are just barely starting high school are having sex, so in my opinion the fact that she was only 17 really doesn't matter at all. In today's society if you are 17 and still a virgin it is frowned upon by today's generation which is ridiculous. That is just my opinion is all.

[leyki]

Angel had sex with Buffy when she was 17, but he felt in love with her when she was 14-15.
That kind of makes him lead towards paedophilia....

[AngelFaith]

Oct 9, 2010 18:00:06 GMT -5 leyki said:

Angel had sex with Buffy when she was 17, but he felt in love with her when she was 14-15.
That kind of makes him lead towards paedophilia....

•Pedophilia (or paedophilia) is a psychological disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a sexual preference for prepubescent children

Even though Buffy was 15/16 (she was not fourteen) when Angel first saw her, he is in now way a paedophile. She is NOT prepubescent and she does NOT look like a child. If anything, she looks a few years older than she actually is, Angel had no way of knowing exactly how old she was.

I have seen the "Angel is a paedophile" argument so many times before it just becomes tiring. As others have pointed out, it's usually used as Angel or Bangel bashing and is just not true. Of all the arguments the anti-Bangels can come up with, this one is one of the weakest.

[iigreenii]

I have seen the "Angel is a paedophile" argument so many times before it just becomes tiring. As others have pointed out, it's usually used as Angel or Bangel bashing and is just not true. Of all the arguments the anti-Bangels can come up with, this one is one of the weakest.

I completely agree and I'm more of a Spuffy fan . Anytime I see a comment like "Angel the pedophile" or Spike the rapist" I skip right over them and don't even bother to finish reading what they had to say. They're obviously one-sided/biased opinions looking at things black and white. Rarely anything in the Buffyverse is black and white.

Just like many people have mentioned above, age is irrelevant in Buffy or any vampire show for that matter. Have you seen The Vampire Diaries or True Blood? Stefan/Elena/Damon and Bill/Sookie/Eric all have huge age differences just like Angel/Buffy/Spike. I think Buffy was 21 when she started up with Spike, but it's still a big age difference. When watching any show involving vampires, you should already know there's going to be a age difference.

I just realized I said "age-difference"a lot....but anyways I hope I made sense.