How seriously do you take the AtS Season 4 retcon?

[jason321]

In "Inside Out," Skip essentially claims that EVERYTHING thats happened throughout the series was manipulated by Jasmine in order to lead to her birth. Things like Doyle giving Cordy the visions, Gunn killing his sister, Wesley sleeping w/ Lilah, Fred getting sucked into Pylea, and Lorne leaving Pylea. The characters all appear to accept this at face value. The question is, do you buy it?

[barryshaft]

Frankly I think it was just taken (and phrased) a bit too literally. What essentially was said was that every step they'd taken was simply a path to where they'd ended up. None of them were manipulated into doing anything (though it's entirely possible it was on this behalf that Doyle was given the visions and started the dominos in motion), it was simply a predestined event. If things hadn't gone the way they had it would have happened some other way.

[El Diablo Robotico]

LOL: "Even the writers have no idea". Well-put.

There's a scene in one of the last Evil Cordy eps that year where Angel, talking about the Beast's master (knowing it's her, and trying to get under her skin), says, "I bet he doesn't even have a master plan; he's just making it up as he goes along". I've always felt that was a pretty good description of the writers that season: making it up as they went along.

I just have this image in my head of a conversation very similar to this taking place in the writers' room early in that season:

Writer #1: "Okay, blotting out the sun, that was cool, but what can we do next?"
Writer #2: "How about bringing Angelus back for a few episodes?"
Writer #1: "Yeah. Yeah! Great idea!"
Writer #3: "But, um... why?"
Writer #1: "I don't know. We can say he's crucial to Cordelia's plan or something. Doesn't matter--we'll figure it out when we get there. Oh--and then we can bring Faith back to capture him!"
(*writer #1 and writer #2 high-five*)
Writer #2: "Awesome!"
Writer #3: "'Figure it out when we get there'... But that's what we said we'd do about the rain of fire, and we still haven't gotten around to figuring that out yet."
Writer #1: "You're always worried about the little things..."

There's a lot of good things to like in S4, but I wish they'd spent a little more time worrying about how tight their overall story was (or rather, wasn't).

As far as the poll question goes, I've always chosen to believe that Skip was lying, as a way of messing with their heads. Because otherwise, believing he was telling the truth and everything I'd watched for 3.5 years was nothing but a completely orchestrated lead-up to a really lame plot (Jasmine) would seriously harm my overall enjoyment of the show...

[jason321]

barryshaft, Skip was definitely claiming that everything was part of Jasmine's "plan." The full dialogue is here: vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=5268

For the record, I voted Season 3. I'm willing to buy that Cordy was manipulated in "Birthday" and "Tomorrow," but thats as far as it goes.

Apr 23, 2008 1:31:47 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

Because otherwise, believing he was telling the truth and everything I'd watched for 3.5 years was nothing but a completely orchestrated lead-up to a really lame plot (Jasmine) would seriously harm my overall enjoyment of the show...

True. To be honest, I basically brushed the whole thing off as nonsense immediately after hearing it. Its like in comics, when a big event is hyped as being "the culmination of everything that occurred in the last 10 years under 7 different writers!!! This storyline is really important!!!" I didn't buy that type of retcon when I was 11, and im not buying it now.

[Rachster]

Hard question... skip made great points but its hard to think that for 4 seasons of angel jasmine was controlling them or at least pulling some strings anyway its something thats never really bothered me after all its still a great show

[ladyparasyte]

What I always found strange was that they were saying it was Jasmine controlling Cordy which is what made her sleep with Conner,BUT the morning after Connor and Cordy sleep together Cordy wakes up with this "Oh my god, what did I do" reaction and is weirded out by him touching her.When she makes the face she is turned away from Conner so the expression seems honest and not done for Connor's sake.

[jason321]

Apr 25, 2008 10:29:43 GMT -5 ladyparasyte said:

What I always found strange was that they were saying it was Jasmine controlling Cordy which is what made her sleep with Conner,BUT the morning after Connor and Cordy sleep together Cordy wakes up with this "Oh my god, what did I do" reaction and is weirded out by him touching her.When she makes the face she is turned away from Conner so the expression seems honest and not done for Connor's sake.

This always bothered me, but the writers aren't above lazy misdirection. They've already done it before in "Dad," where Angel talks to the bomb-disguised-as-baby in the car just to mislead the audience.

The fact that Cordy winks (its very subtle) at the Beast right before he bails in "Apocalypse Now-ish" definitively tells me that she was possessed by that point.

[Rachster]

Apr 25, 2008 10:29:43 GMT -5 ladyparasyte said:

What I always found strange was that they were saying it was Jasmine controlling Cordy which is what made her sleep with Conner,BUT the morning after Connor and Cordy sleep together Cordy wakes up with this "Oh my god, what did I do" reaction and is weirded out by him touching her.When she makes the face she is turned away from Conner so the expression seems honest and not done for Connor's sake.

this is one of the many things that annoyed me about season 4 but i guess at that point we still thought Cordy was good... so it was OK the first time around
after all It was what you would expect her to do after sleeping with angels son so if she woke up all happy and OK with it people may have figured out she was evil sooner than joss wanted them to

[El Diablo Robotico]

You know another thing that bothers me? The teaser of "Apocalypse, Nowish" where Cordy has a nightmare about being attacked by the Beast. She's evil and the one controlling it by that point, so why the hell is she having a nightmare about it?

[Jinxieman]

I think it started in season 2. I think Jasmine took advantage of Angel and Darla sleeping together to create conner and the used the fact that Cordelia had the visions to her advantage by giving her the "gift" of becoming part demon. Then...my memory is a little fuzzy...did skip have any part that we know of in bring Holtz to the future...I know it was Sashan (or whatever his name was) that did it, but do we see Skip in there at all...probably not because then we would know he was bad, but I think it is plausible that he could have had a hand in it. Of course if you are asking when the writers started plotting this all out I think it was probably started in season 3 when they took advantage of Angel and Darla sleeping together...but I doubt they had it completely mapped out at that time.

[jason321]

Apr 25, 2008 12:27:24 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

You know another thing that bothers me? The teaser of "Apocalypse, Nowish" where Cordy has a nightmare about being attacked by the Beast. She's evil and the one controlling it by that point, so why the hell is she having a nightmare about it?

I always liked to think that this was the last time we saw the real Cordy in S4. Its a dream sequence, so it makes sense that she'd appear as herself in her own subconscious. The dialogue "I wanna warn Angel, but the words won't come out. Why can't I tell him?" implies that she is no longer in control of her body. Then its followed by the Beast choking her, which is probably meant to represent what is suppressing her.

Jinxieman, if we're speaking in terms of when the writers had it plotted out, I don't think they had the idea for EvilCordy/Jasmine until after S3 wrapped. I just think the retcon only works as far back to Birthday, and anything before that requires far too much fanwank to make any sense of.

[El Diablo Robotico]

Apr 25, 2008 13:03:50 GMT -5 jason321 said:

Apr 25, 2008 12:27:24 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

You know another thing that bothers me? The teaser of "Apocalypse, Nowish" where Cordy has a nightmare about being attacked by the Beast. She's evil and the one controlling it by that point, so why the hell is she having a nightmare about it?

I always liked to think that this was the last time we saw the real Cordy in S4. Its a dream sequence, so it makes sense that she'd appear as herself in her own subconscious. The dialogue "I wanna warn Angel, but the words won't come out. Why can't I tell him?" implies that she is no longer in control of her body. Then its followed by the Beast choking her, which is probably meant to represent what is suppressing her.

Yeah, okay, that works. Good on you. But it still highlights one of the problems I have with S4, which is that the writers left us to fill in too many of the blanks ourselves. I don't want them treating me like I'm 9 and need every single detail spelled out and explained, but at the same time, don't leave me as the viewer to do all the work of trying to make sense of the plot...

[henzINNIT]

I thought the implied manipulation was supposed to be going on waaaay before Angel season 1 started.

I didn't take it very seriously at all. The only real manipulation that was visable was Skip's meddling in season 3. I could buy that Jasmine gave the visions to Doyle and possibly Cordelia, overall though I think it was mostly a classic case of egotistical villain. Charisma's portrayal of Jasmine certainly seemed as though she was full of herself.

[Emmie]

All the huge events that happened on a demony personal level that seemed inexplicable...sure I'm okay with giving some credit to Jasmine. I can see Jasmine manipulating these events pretty easily because she clearly demonstrated that she doesn't believe in free will.

A baby born of two vampires. Cordy ascending and becoming demonized.

But debating this issue and trying to understand who's actually responsible brings me back to the most important part - that these events weren't really the point. That the everyday little battles of saving people were the most important times. Saving and protecting the innocent.

[El Diablo Robotico]

Apr 25, 2008 19:07:07 GMT -5 Emmie said:

But debating this issue and trying to understand who's actually responsible brings me back to the most important part - that these events weren't really the point. That the everyday little battles of saving people were the most important times. Saving and protecting the innocent.

I think that's one of the things I dislike about S4. "Buffy" was always more about the Big Bad who wanted to destroy or take over the world (the Master, Angelus, Glory, the First), and "Angel" was always more about the smaller, more personal battles (Darla, Holtz, Wolfram & Hart)--which is ironic, with "Buffy" being set in the small town, and "Angel" in the big, bad city. David Greenwalt really seemed to grasp this about "Angel" better than anybody--even including Joss--so when they lost him as the showrunner at the end of S3, I think that really contributed to some of the problems S4 suffered.

There's still a lot about S4 I like--I just think it tried to go beyond what the show had been in the first three seasons, with mixed success, and kinda got away from what had made it so great.

[jason321]

Apr 25, 2008 13:27:48 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

Yeah, okay, that works. Good on you. But it still highlights one of the problems I have with S4, which is that the writers left us to fill in too many of the blanks ourselves. I don't want them treating me like I'm 9 and need every single detail spelled out and explained, but at the same time, don't leave me as the viewer to do all the work of trying to make sense of the plot...

Yes yes yes. This topic was partly inspired from reading a discussion elsewhere, where people were trying to connect all of S4's dots. It was pretty obvious that after 5 years, people still can't get the whole thing to make sense. I treat it like a season of 24: very exciting the first time through, but don't think about it too much or you'll end up being disappointed in how ludicrous it all is.

One of the open questions of S4 that drove me nuts is, why did Cordy come back when she did? Surely it would have been more conveniant to send her back while Angel was under the sea, as Jasmine would have been born long before he could meddle in her schemes. Did Jasmine have the authority to make Cordy a higher being but not hit the eject button on her? Did Cordy have to break the rules and help Angel(see "The House Always Wins") in order to be voted off TPTB island? Blah, im about ready to change my vote to "my head hurts."

[ladyparasyte]

Apr 25, 2008 10:47:53 GMT -5 jason321 said:

Apr 25, 2008 10:29:43 GMT -5 ladyparasyte said:

What I always found strange was that they were saying it was Jasmine controlling Cordy which is what made her sleep with Conner,BUT the morning after Connor and Cordy sleep together Cordy wakes up with this "Oh my god, what did I do" reaction and is weirded out by him touching her.When she makes the face she is turned away from Conner so the expression seems honest and not done for Connor's sake.

This always bothered me, but the writers aren't above lazy misdirection. They've already done it before in "Dad," where Angel talks to the bomb-disguised-as-baby in the car just to mislead the audience.

The fact that Cordy winks (its very subtle) at the Beast right before he bails in "Apocalypse Now-ish" definitively tells me that she was possessed by that point.

Ya know. Thinking about it more. maybe she wasn't possessed ALL the time. Maybe only when Jasmine needed her to do something.
Sleep with Conner for example. Which would explain the"What did I just do" expression on her face the morning after.
Cordy had described in Season 5 that it was like she was there but someone else was behind the wheel.
I dunno. I just want to make sense of this. It hurts my head.

[ded1]

I picked other because I think that it was Jasmine that forced Xander and Willow to make out in season 3 of BTVS so Cordy would break up with Xander and go to LA.

If the writers can make it up as they go along,then so can I.(insert maniacal laughter here.Twirls cheesy moustache as well)

[Emmie]

Apr 25, 2008 22:33:49 GMT -5 jason321 said:

One of the open questions of S4 that drove me nuts is, why did Cordy come back when she did? Surely it would have been more conveniant to send her back while Angel was under the sea, as Jasmine would have been born long before he could meddle in her schemes. Did Jasmine have the authority to make Cordy a higher being but not hit the eject button on her? Did Cordy have to break the rules and help Angel(see "The House Always Wins") in order to be voted off TPTB island? Blah, im about ready to change my vote to "my head hurts."

I think it was Cordy breaking the rules in 'the House Always Wins' by using direct intervention that had her sent back. As for Cordy becoming a higher being, I think it was something along the lines of Jasmine convincing the PTB that she was worthy, kinda like a tribal council thing. I believe that Jasmine was a PTB that got tired of watching humanity screw up while she couldn't do anything, thus her disgust with free will because she watched free will feed evil again and again. What Jasmine wanted most was direct control, something that is denied to the PTB.

When Cordy got back I think Jasmine was sleeping inside her til the end of 'Spin the Bottle', then started influencing her actions, thoughts and feelings but not completely controlling her consciousness. That's why Cordy was struggling to tell Angel about her visions and why she regretted sleeping with Connor the morning after. I think that some of the visions she was getting were also engineered by Jasmine, like the vision of the Beast and Angelus, in order to manipulate the group. Eventually Jasmine gained more power and took complete control and pushed Cordy to the back seat. The question is when?

As for all the apocalyptic events that didn't make sense, I like artiswar's theory that Jasmine wanted to create this crisis in order to be the savior when she was reborn. I also see them as birthing pains for the rebirth of a being so powerful.

She also wanted the Beast's knife of himself so she could dispose of him later. I see Jasmine wanting Angelus around as a distraction so Angel wouldn't figure out something was wrong with Cordy until it was too late. She stole the soul-orb to keep Angelus on a tight leash and probably would have re-ensouled Angel on her own timetable after she was born. Then Angel and the gang would help her restore order while under her thrall.

I don't think there's a way of knowing exactly when Jasmine started messing with Angel. She might even have been part of what brought him back from Acathla's hell dimension in Buffy season 3.

[Whedon Fan]

They way I took all of this was

Jasmine hitched onto Cordy when she came back from the higher plane.They woke her up in Spine the bottle with the spell then <bomb> Evil, Cordy begins making a plan, she raises the beast (off screen as evil cordy was a secret for a while) then they decide to blot out the sun and get Angelus. With the sun blotted out Angelus cn do what ever he wants whenever he wants but wait...Angelus doesn't play along he kills the Beast and Cordy then changes her plan abit and tries to control Angelus more, Faith is then brought in to bring Angelus down and Cordy's plans are ruined more she continues to try and get Connor to kill him but its' to late ANGEL is back and Faith kicks Connors ass....freekin awesome by the way. Whils all this is happening Jasmine has been growing inside evil cordy she then gives birth and then enslaves the human race. It's complicated and I'm not sure I'm explaining it well but I actaually understand all of it. I just don't buy the Jasmine was here all along but even though I understand it. Any questions pivate message me and I'll try to explain and answer whatever it is.