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Post by Wyndam on May 5, 2008 17:06:14 GMT -5
I was reading the summary for Issue #10 today:
Months ago, Los Angeles went to hell. Or maybe hell came to Los Angeles. Find out the truth once and for all. Plus, someone's been manipulating everyone from the start. Angel would very much like to meet him, and he'll tear through every demon in LA to do so. Meanwhile, Spike has something important to tell Wesley, Illyria has a new role, and what the hell is Gunn keeping in the basement?
Do we know for sure that is Gunn? Plus if it was Gunn, then I don't see any reason to not mention him there in that description as the one that has done all of the manipulating so far. If Wolfram & Hart turned Angel into a human, then what happened to Angelus? Perhaps they split the two of them, so that Angelus would be set loose again and might bring Angel Inc. down?
So what if Angelus is that one that is really pulling Gunn's strings? What if he was the one that sired Gunn in the first place? Gunn has said that he blames Angel for what happened to him, perhaps because it was the demon living inside of Angel that actually sired him.
I think that there has to be a signifigant reason that Angel was turned into a human, as well as a reason why they haven't said anything about where Angelus went. He wasn't just destroyed when Angel became a human, so he had to have gone somewhere, so what if he was just separated from Angel, and is now able to start manipulating what has been going on.
This all seems to fit for me, so I am wondering what everyone else things.
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Post by henzINNIT on May 5, 2008 17:25:55 GMT -5
I came into this thread ready to lay down my "Angelus coming back would be lame fan service. He's just unecessary to this story" speach, but your theory is actually pretty good. Bravo, you ruined my trail of thought
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Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 643
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Post by Enisy on May 5, 2008 17:33:00 GMT -5
This theory is entirely reliant on the notion that Angelus and Angel, as well as soulless Spike and souled Spike, are separate entities, which is a not at all clear, and oft-debated subject.
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Post by Wyndam on May 5, 2008 17:36:26 GMT -5
This theory is entirely reliant on the notion that Angelus and Angel, as well as soulless Spike and souled Spike, are separate entities, which is a not at all clear, and oft-debated subject. Yeah I know, the whole situation is kind of messy. I just know there has to be a huge reason why Angel is human now, if Wolfram & Hart did indeed do it. So that's where Angelus comes into play, as I can certainly see that as a reason why WR&H would do it, if they can actually separate Angel and Angelus. So I guess we just have to wait and see.
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Post by hunter233 on May 5, 2008 17:36:40 GMT -5
That would be awesome. I can't believe no one thought of this before. It's so perfect. Kudos, sir, kudos.
This is one of those rare speculations that are so good that I'll actually be a bit disappointed if that isn't what happens. I mean, for one, that would be genius of Wolfram and Hart. Angel was actually starting to cope with the things he had done as Angelus, or at least I felt he was, so what better way to tear back open that wound than to unleash him directly against Angel? I remember back in Season 4 that one of the things I was most excited about was when Angel got to directly confront Angelus during his Orpheus-inspired pipe dreams. Unfortunately, the special effects were a teensy bit sub-par there, and it took away from that scene a bit for me. Not a problem in the comics. Also, in Season 4 Angelus' return was fairly disappointing because he never really got a chance to do the kind of mind-frack villainy he did back in Buffy (not when free, anyway). I'd love for him to get a chance to really shine as the villain again. Not to mention that in a show about redemption, the ultimate villain would be a separated Angelus, the very embodiment of everything Angel has to regret.
So yeah, I'm rooting for this. Maybe Angelus is what's in Gunn's basement? If Gunn's really holed up in the Hyperion like I'm betting he is, Angelus has some good memories of that basement, heh.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on May 5, 2008 19:05:37 GMT -5
I never saw Angelus as a separate entity from Angelus. There was a big debate about this at IDW, and the crowd was pretty much split. This is how I've always taken the Buffyverse rule on Angel and Spike.
Angelus is Liam, as a vampire. (Simply that. He is what Liam would be with no soul, driven by vampyric desires and the connection to evil they all feel.) Angel is simply Angeus with a soul. (He is Liam, driven by vampyric desires that are held back by a soul, which is literally the conscience).
That's what Spike's soul journey has supported. Same with Angel's, except for the bogus "Angelus must have seen the Beast, not Angel" thing from Season Four, which went against everything from before. Angel remembered everything Angelus did, simply because there is no difference. Angelus is Angel without a soul, and Angel is Angelus with a soul. There is no "Where is Angelus?" because, since he is no longer a vampire at this point, Angel is very simply Liam. Only difference is, he's been through what he's been through, which makes him a hero.
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Post by Emmie on May 5, 2008 20:32:21 GMT -5
I think this theory is very possible. How is it any different from Toth's plan on Buffy season 5 'The Replacement' to seperate her Slayer and Buffy Summers characteristics. If anything, Angel is more divided than Buffy. Its magic so its possible.
The theory isn't supposing that Angel and Angelus are seperate entities, but that they become seperate entities.
Cool idea, Wyndam.
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Post by wenxina on May 5, 2008 21:55:02 GMT -5
As for Wyndam's Angel theory... I think that until we see more, it's kinda hard to tell. I mentioned elsewhere (and it's just been mentioned a few posts ago) that the whole thing had become kinda muddy. I've always seen Angel/Angelus as the same being, just sans soul in the latter. However, there have been issues with that, given the whole S4 of Angel fiasco. But from overwhelming past instances, I'd say that the S4 plot was a glitch... and not entirely in continuity with Buffyverse vamp lore. I mean, the basic premise of vamping someone was getting rid of their soul so that a demon could inhabit them. That was Angelus, in Liam's body. Angel's just the name Liam adopted after having his soul returned, to remind him of his past. But whether or not a vampire can show human emotions, or even just humanity, when soulless is up for debate. Spike showed considerable human emotions, even without his soul. He was able to love... something that even Angelus was really able to do. His relationship with Darla was strange, but it wasn't love the way Spike loved Drusilla and later, Buffy. And in AtF... Gunn seems to hate that he's a vampire, and wants to do right, if for nothing other than to show Angel that having a soul is not what makes a good man. So... I'd say it's an interesting tangent here... is it the soul that makes one good, or is it something else? I mean, even people with souls do horrible things to each other. What really separates them from the demon?
EDIT: It is a cool theory though, Wyndam's. I'm liking it, even if I don't know just how viable it is.
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Post by Emmie on May 5, 2008 22:06:23 GMT -5
I still think its viable. I don't know if it'll happen but it could happen and make sense.
Xander is one entity but he was split in two. Why couldn't Angel be seperated into 2 entities, one with more of the human aspects and the other with more of the vampire aspects? I don't think its a question of whether souled vampire Angel has two seperate beings inside one body (which I don't think it is exactly), but that these aspects could be seperated mystically.
The irony in this hypothetical situation is that the human Angel feels the need for a glamour to still appear like a vampire to everyone else while there already could be a vampAngel running around.
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Post by wenxina on May 5, 2008 22:22:18 GMT -5
Well... if that's the case, why hasn't Wolfram and Hart unleashed Angelus yet? They know that Angel is now weak... hence the need for the vampire glamor. Why not just unleash the beast on the general populace? I know it's been done before, the separation of Angel's demon self, as well as his human self... pretty much what happened in Pylea. But I'm not convinced that it's the case here. More convinced that it's a case of continuity error than anything else. i'd be pleasantly surprised if it was shown to be otherwise... very happily proven wrong, actually.
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Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
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Post by Enisy on May 5, 2008 22:57:59 GMT -5
So... I'd say it's an interesting tangent here... is it the soul that makes one good, or is it something else? I mean, even people with souls do horrible things to each other. What really separates them from the demon? Joss Whedon: I would love to give you a more in-depth coherent explanation of my view of the soul, and if I had one I would. The soul and my concept of it are as ephemeral as anybody's, and possibly more so. And in terms of the show, it is something that exists to meet the needs of convenience; the truth is sometimes you can trap it in a jar; the truth is sometimes someone without one seems more interesting than someone with one. I don't think Clem has a soul, but he's certainly a sweet guy. Spike was definitely kind of a soulful character before he had a soul, but we made it clear that there was a level on which he could not operate. Although Spike could feel love, it was the possessive and selfish kind of love that most people feel. The concept of real altruism didn't exist for him. And although he did love Buffy and was moved by her emotionally, ultimately his desire to possess her led him to try and rape her because he couldn't make the connection -- the difference between their dominance games and actual rape. With a soul comes a more adult understanding. That is again, a little vague, but... can I say that I believe in the soul? I don't know that I can. It's a beautiful concept, as is resurrection and a lot of other things we have on the show that I'm not really sure I can explain and I certainly don't believe in. It does fall prey to convenience, but at the same time it has consistently marked the real difference between somebody with a complex moral structure and someone who may be affable and even likable, but ultimately eats kittens. I agree with Pat and you that Angelus and Angel are the same person, by the way.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on May 6, 2008 0:57:11 GMT -5
Well... if that's the case, why hasn't Wolfram and Hart unleashed Angelus yet? They know that Angel is now weak... hence the need for the vampire glamor. Why not just unleash the beast on the general populace? Angelus isn't much the minion-to-be-unleashed-at-his-master's-behest type, tho. I have a hard time imagining even the Senior Partners finding a way of controlling him. But... I can imagine them wanting to bring him back, and just being happy to sit back and watch him do his thing (which, if Wyndam's theory is right, could be exactly what they're doing). Remember in "Calvary", Wesley says to Lilah, "And you always wanted Angelus," and she replies, "No, Wolfram and Hart did." If Angelus is back, I absolutely can picture him as the type to lurk in the background, manipulating things for a larger purpose until the time is right for him to strike. That's what earns ya the label "diabolical". It is a very interesting idea, Wyndam, and there's nothing yet (that I see, anyway) that proves it wrong. Heck, maybe that's even where Angel's tat went--Angelus has it. If it turns out you're right, tho, the only concern I'd have about it is that it's something they've kinda already done before. Angel and Angelus have already confronted each other in "Orpheus", and I'm not sure there's much left to be dealt with between those two. Angelus did call Angel "Rat Boy" during that scene, so maybe that's the new/old nickname...
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Post by wenxina on May 6, 2008 22:32:10 GMT -5
Well... if that's the case, why hasn't Wolfram and Hart unleashed Angelus yet? They know that Angel is now weak... hence the need for the vampire glamor. Why not just unleash the beast on the general populace? Angelus isn't much the minion-to-be-unleashed-at-his-master's-behest type, tho. I have a hard time imagining even the Senior Partners finding a way of controlling him. But... I can imagine them wanting to bring him back, and just being happy to sit back and watch him do his thing (which, if Wyndam's theory is right, could be exactly what they're doing). Remember in "Calvary", Wesley says to Lilah, "And you always wanted Angelus," and she replies, "No, Wolfram and Hart did." If Angelus is back, I absolutely can picture him as the type to lurk in the background, manipulating things for a larger purpose until the time is right for him to strike. That's what earns ya the label "diabolical". Agreed, except that Angelus has never been one to lay low much. Granted he was pissed at Spike's constant drawing of attention back in the day, but he was never much of a wallflower. So, even if he was behind the scenes, doing his thing, you'd think that some hint would have been thrown down already. Also, vampires... not so much on the demon food-chain, so I'm wondering just how much Angelus can do without getting his head stomped on. And when I said unleashed, I didn't mean it so much as Wolfram and Hart saying "Now, Angelus... be a good puppy and kill some people for us". Rather, more of just letting him go and enjoying the carnage that usually ensues. But I do like the theory... I'm just having problems with mind-contortions at the moment. Partially because I'm still of the opinion that some events were the fruit of inconsistencies... and the Whedon quote that enisy put up states that the soul is something that's shifted about for the convenience of the story. Again with the skipping the plotholes to get to the character arc. Does it bother me that much... nope. But separation of Angel/Angelus would be a decent way to satisfy the missing tat issue.
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balesthebloody
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Angel's gettin' some! Good on you mate!"[Mo0:0]
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Post by balesthebloody on May 6, 2008 22:43:21 GMT -5
This is something that I think, before the Buffyverse ends, needs to be addressed. Are Angel and Angelus two different beings? If they are, and I am a firm believer that they are, this theory fits to the "T". If not then it kinda gets washed away. But if somehow W8H did pull them apart then it works great also. This is a big gray subject that I wish someone would shed some light on, and soon.
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Post by gunsandsmoke on May 8, 2008 17:37:52 GMT -5
Very nice theory. I think it's entirely possible. The idea of an Angel/Angelus braw would be sweet. I don't know if I would enjoy the payoff if it turned out to be him behind everything though. Maybe towards the end of the season, but not THE end of the season. Angel as always be the self-depricating, I'm my own worse enemy kinda character. It would only make sense that he fights the part of himself that he hates, since Hell is all topsy turvy anyway...
Here is a question I have though. Does anyone think Spike is a human to? I dunno if this has been discussed here or not but I haven't seen him vamp out ( at least I don't remember seeing him vamp out) since LA turned into Hell.
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Post by Emmie on May 8, 2008 18:27:51 GMT -5
Does anyone think Spike is a human to? I dunno if this has been discussed here or not but I haven't seen him vamp out ( at least I don't remember seeing him vamp out) since LA turned into Hell. Spike's still a vamp. He vamps out in his story in First Night.
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Post by CowboyGuy on May 8, 2008 18:39:27 GMT -5
Very interesting theory about Angel and Angelus splitting into two separate beings! Never thought about that. Since Angel is human, where did the demon go? Makes sense!
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Post by snizapman6294 on Jul 12, 2008 22:32:24 GMT -5
It makes sense if Angel was separated from Angelus when he was de-vamped. And Angelus sired Gunn, is telling him what to do, and somehow contacted the senior partners. By the way, does anyone else want to see the legit corporeal forms of the Senior Partners, and The Powers that Be?
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cheryl
Novice Witch
[Mo0:37]
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Post by cheryl on Jul 12, 2008 23:44:00 GMT -5
What a chilling theory Wyndam. Could Angelus be directing Gunn in some way? Where DID he go, after Angel became human? He has to be somewhere. I would love to see a cover of Angelus in his black leather on an upcoming issue.
Another fight scene between the two would be really really cool.
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passionbuffy
Innocent Bystander
"I'm so evil and... skanky. And I think I'm kinda gay."[Mo0:28]
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Post by passionbuffy on Jul 13, 2008 4:46:30 GMT -5
remember that the demon inside angel looks like this in his pure form :
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