Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on May 11, 2008 17:02:46 GMT -5
I wonder if that question has ever been asked on this board but it really is something that bothers me because I keep trying to figure the whole thing out and I can't seem to find the right answer. I guess this has been discussed over and over already but at least I would like to have an idea of what you all think.
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Post by themaleslayer on May 11, 2008 17:07:10 GMT -5
I would really like to know, too. This is one of the many things that bug me about Season 7.
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on May 11, 2008 17:20:45 GMT -5
In the first place I really took for granted that it was Joyce since she had to struggle to get her message through and the First already was with Willow anyway (provided the scenes took place at the same time). Plus it looked more like a "ghost apparition" than another trick set by the First. But it turns out that Buffy never really betrayed her sister or can we consider that sending her away at the end was a betrayal? She was trying to save her life. Eventually I started to think it might have been the First playing with Dawn's mind. But it didn't cause her to do anything silly anyway.
Now I would tend to think it's something the writers forgot about and they should try to fix their mistake in season 8.
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on May 11, 2008 17:38:59 GMT -5
This bugged me alot but i guess i just assumed she was talking to herself Uh? You just assumed who was talking to herself?
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Rachster
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Post by Rachster on May 11, 2008 18:59:47 GMT -5
Yeah i dont think she was talking to anyone i think she imagined it after all it did not sound like joyce and we know dawn must still have some magic keyness in her so how do we know she somehow didnt imagine joyce
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Post by wenxina on May 11, 2008 19:10:53 GMT -5
Figured it was the First. Yeah, it could've been talking to Willow at the same time, but if the First is omnipotent, I don't see why it can't be at two places at the same time. If you believe in God, and someone else does too (trust me, you're not alone), it's the same concept if you're both talking to God at the same time. I don't think the scenario with Dawn was played out to its fullest, but we do see signs of Dawn's feeling left out, as well as alienated from her sister when the Potentials pretty much consume Buffy's life. I guess the ominous "Buffy won't choose you" or something to that effect was just to play on Dawn's residual alienation from Buffy (there was a lot of stuff between them in S6)... it could've been made clearer, but I think they ran out of time as well as space to have it play out. Which is why I like that we're still seeing some of that tension post S7, bleeding over to S8. It's an interesting topic though, and other thoughts would be cool to read.
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on May 11, 2008 19:24:26 GMT -5
In the first place I thought the First was not omnipotent and could not be in two different places at the same time but maybe I was wrong.
I never thought about some other theory like Dawn imagining it all, it sounds a little farfetched to me. The scene seemed pretty real to me, not like a dream sequence or something.
I really hope they get a chance to end that storyline in season 8, maybe it is somehow connected with whole betrayal plot to come.
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Post by Whedon Fan on May 11, 2008 19:45:35 GMT -5
Listen to the commentry Jane Espenson sort of backs up that it was the First.
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Rachster
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Post by Rachster on May 11, 2008 19:58:44 GMT -5
Listen to the commentry Jane Espenson sort of backs up that it was the First. Oh really? i have to listen to that now
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Post by Wyndam on May 11, 2008 21:27:47 GMT -5
I always assumed it was The First, although it always bugged me because The First isn't supposed to be able to hurt people, but oh well. Season 7 was full of these weird inconsistencies.
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Post by wenxina on May 11, 2008 21:30:58 GMT -5
Another agent of the First? I agree that it's probably an inconsistency. Just like how the First made audible footfalls... noticed it in the cellar, when It appeared as Buffy. I can't tell you when exactly, but keep your ears perked if you haven't noticed it yet.
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El Diablo Robotico
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on May 11, 2008 22:09:27 GMT -5
Ah, one of the many dead-end, go-nowhere subplots that so annoy me about S7. Funny, I actually just re-watched the audio commentary for CwDP last night (I love when Danny Strong asks, "So when does S8 start?" ). Yes, Jane Espenson does mention that her recollection--she doesn't sound 100% positive--is that Joss told her that everything in the episode except Webs was the First. Even if you take the Dawn stuff out of the equation, the ep proves that the First can be in multiple places, in multiple forms, at the same time (Cassie with Willow, and Warren with Andrew). So while everything that happened to Dawn was apparently intended to be the First, it ends up being really annoying for two reasons. One, the wildly inconsistent characterization of the First compared to every other time we see it; and two, that the only payoff of the seed of doubt it plants in Dawn's mind ("Buffy won't choose you") is her unwillingness to tell Buffy right away that she might be a potential. Like I said, dead-end subplot. Until (and unless) something comes along in S8 or S9 that conclusively proves that it was the First appearing to Dawn, I choose to believe that it was either really Joyce, or something else other than the First trying to mess with Dawn for reasons unknown...
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Post by Emmie on May 12, 2008 3:51:02 GMT -5
Here's the quotage for the moment:
JOYCE Things are coming, Dawn. Listen, things are on their way. I love you, and I love Buffy, but she won't be there for you.
DAWN What? Why are you—?
JOYCE When it's bad, Buffy won't choose you. She'll be against you.
The vision of Joyce starts to fade.
DAWN No! No, don't go! Please, don't go!
___________________________________________________
Its interesting word choices, no? Buffy won't choose Dawn. As in being chosen perhaps. Or that she'll be against Dawn being in the fight. Is it the First lying with the truth, or Joyce being very prophetically vague as prophecies love to be.
I'm undecided on whether Joyce was the First. The Joyce part didn't match the First m.o. - why the need for a haunting...I don't think it would take that much to convince Dawn. She would be pretty gullible when it came to her mom.
The only evil payoff I can see to Joyce being the First is that its Dawn who tells Buffy that she "can't be here" and "you can't be a part of it" in 'Empty Places'. That Dawn doesn't choose Buffy and is against her.
Its ambiguous, which is a shame for the audience because even if the characters are confused normally we're clued in to what's really happening. Though it seemed like Buffy s7/Angel s4 liked to confuse the audience alot. Maybe it is meant for effect, to make us feel as gripped by the mystery as the characters are.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on May 12, 2008 4:39:51 GMT -5
So while everything that happened to Dawn was apparently intended to be the First, it ends up being really annoying for two reasons. One, the wildly inconsistent characterization of the First compared to every other time we see it; and two, that the only payoff of the seed of doubt it plants in Dawn's mind ("Buffy won't choose you") is her unwillingness to tell Buffy right away that she might be a potential. Like I said, dead-end subplot. Until (and unless) something comes along in S8 or S9 that conclusively proves that it was the First appearing to Dawn, I choose to believe that it was either really Joyce, or something else other than the First trying to mess with Dawn for reasons unknown... Inconsistent characterization? Do you mean that The First wasn't that monstreus? It's a great actor, and at the time, with Dawn, playing creepy ghost served it's purpose at the time. It's been Jenny, Joyce, Warren, Eve, creepy Buffy, smirking Spike.... And while it might not have worked out that well with Dawn, I believe that it was the First, because it tried tied divide and conquer. It's goal/dream must have been for Dawn to betray Buffy before Buffy betrayed her. the First wanted to spread seeds whereever it could and hoped that some would grow. It didn't count on Dawn's love for Buffy or whatever. Well, we see later in an episode that Dawn's told that The First could take the shape of dead people, and then we see how Dawn realizes that "Hey, that was bullshit! Oh." But I wasn't sure if it was Joyce or the First until Jane Espenson said so, so I guess it's still possible that it's Joyce... I mean peolpe get a bit different as ghosts.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on May 12, 2008 4:43:52 GMT -5
Here's the quotage for the moment: JOYCE Things are coming, Dawn. Listen, things are on their way. I love you, and I love Buffy, but she won't be there for you. DAWN What? Why are you—? JOYCE When it's bad, Buffy won't choose you. She'll be against you. The vision of Joyce starts to fade. DAWN No! No, don't go! Please, don't go! ___________________________________________________ Its interesting word choices, no? Buffy won't choose Dawn. As in being chosen perhaps. Or that she'll be against Dawn being in the fight. Is it the First lying with the truth, or Joyce being very prophetically vague as prophecies love to be. . Oh, I assume that the ghost, joyce/the first, was refering to how buffy was willing to choose Dawn over the world in Gift. Buffy herself (hopefully Dawn never heard this) said to Giles in an later episode that this time she would be able to sacrifice a loved one for "the mission". I think that Dawn knew that Buffy feelt that way, or feared it, and the ghost played with Dawn's fear. Divide and conquer is the payoff.
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on May 12, 2008 5:50:25 GMT -5
Do you guys think that The First intentionnally materialized itself differently when it took Joyce's form, you know the ghostly apparition with all the white light emaning from her, just to trick Dawn into believing she actually talked to her real mother while others were talking to the First evil?
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on May 12, 2008 6:27:45 GMT -5
Do you guys think that The First intentionnally materialized itself differently when it took Joyce's form, you know the ghostly apparition with all the white light emaning from her, just to trick Dawn into believing she actually talked to her real mother while others were talking to the First evil? perhaps it thought that would appela to Dawn more. Dawn is likely to think that her mom is in heaven, so there should be light. Andrew thought Warren wasn't in heaven, but on earth, with him, talking and working with him, so there's no need for specialeffects. And Willow might not have been impressed by the light, or expected it.
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Post by henzINNIT on May 12, 2008 9:56:00 GMT -5
As mentioned above, Jane Espenson confirms that the conversation with Dawn is indeed the First trying to mess her up.
As for the physical activity earlier in the episode, I always interpreted it as the real Joyce protecting the house from evil sprirts. The first tries to enter the house and Joyce tries to fight it off. Sadly, caught in the middle of this activity, Dawn steps in, and inadvertantly banishes her real mother from the house, allowing the First to have access. The first takes the form of Joyce in its normal tormenting way. Adds a darker twist as well as an explanation I think.
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Post by Slayer489 on May 12, 2008 10:55:40 GMT -5
I think that it's definitely The First trying to cause some trouble. "Buffy won't choose you" will put a strain on how Dawn feels about her sister. Also, we got a hint of this in 'Potential' when Dawn was on the basement stairs trying to listen in to Buffy talking to the potentials, knowing she may not be seen as "special" in Buffy's eyes after what The First said.
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El Diablo Robotico
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on May 12, 2008 13:35:07 GMT -5
So while everything that happened to Dawn was apparently intended to be the First, it ends up being really annoying for two reasons. One, the wildly inconsistent characterization of the First compared to every other time we see it; and two, that the only payoff of the seed of doubt it plants in Dawn's mind ("Buffy won't choose you") is her unwillingness to tell Buffy right away that she might be a potential. Like I said, dead-end subplot. Until (and unless) something comes along in S8 or S9 that conclusively proves that it was the First appearing to Dawn, I choose to believe that it was either really Joyce, or something else other than the First trying to mess with Dawn for reasons unknown... Inconsistent characterization? Do you mean that The First wasn't that monstreus? It's a great actor, and at the time, with Dawn, playing creepy ghost served it's purpose at the time. It's been Jenny, Joyce, Warren, Eve, creepy Buffy, smirking Spike.... Inconsistent because not only did the First never at any other time bother with all the Boo!Scary! stuff (like Emmie pointed out), but it also moves furniture around, throws Dawn across the room, and cuts her cheek. The First, not being corporeal, shouldn't have been able to do any of that. I just chalk it up to either the writers as a group not having worked out what all the 'rules' about the First were yet (what it could and couldn't do), or else not sharing them with Jane Espenson before she took off for Vegas for two days to write these scenes...
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