Who was talking to Dawn at the end of CWDP?

[wenxina]

And I'm going to go with poltergeist working for the First playing boogieman.
Helps reconcile the rift... although I'm probably gonna side with you in terms of the writers not sitting down for a chat.
Noticed some gaping inconsistencies in the latest Omnibus, so apparently it's not just the TV medium that suffers.

[Emmie]

I'll chalk it up to inconsistency, since J.E. says it was the first she was writing the scene for.

[Mathieu]

May 12, 2008 9:56:00 GMT -5 henzINNIT said:

As mentioned above, Jane Espenson confirms that the conversation with Dawn is indeed the First trying to mess her up.

As for the physical activity earlier in the episode, I always interpreted it as the real Joyce protecting the house from evil sprirts. The first tries to enter the house and Joyce tries to fight it off. Sadly, caught in the middle of this activity, Dawn steps in, and inadvertantly banishes her real mother from the house, allowing the First to have access. The first takes the form of Joyce in its normal tormenting way. Adds a darker twist as well as an explanation I think.

Wow. Fair enough, I like that explanation. Let's say it's a good way to make things work when obviously so many things just seem... to not work.

[Mathieu]

May 12, 2008 14:07:52 GMT -5 Emmie said:

I'll chalk it up to inconsistency, since J.E. says it was the first she was writing the scene for.

I really have to listen to the commentary again. Too bad I lent my DVDs to a friend.

[BenTaylor3907]

I think its The First playing mind games.
Like Warren (The First) got Andrew to do his bidding.
Or when Cassie (The First) tried to make Willow commit suicide.

Buffy would never betray Dawn. And if so, why would she commit suicide to save Dawn's life?

[slayersarah]

i assumed it was the First but then that didn't make complete sense after i thought about it (due to the massive damage to the room). so that's one of the things that still bugs me.

[Mathieu]

May 12, 2008 19:46:54 GMT -5 BenTaylor3907 said:

I think its The First playing mind games.
Like Warren (The First) got Andrew to do his bidding.
Or when Cassie (The First) tried to make Willow commit suicide.

Buffy would never betray Dawn. And if so, why would she commit suicide to save Dawn's life?

Remember that in Lied My Parents Told Me Buffy says that this time she would be ready to sacrifice a loved one if she had to. In other words, if the Season 5 scenario were to happen again, she wouldn't sacrifice herself to save her sister.

When I heard that I clearly had in mind what Joyce had told Dawn in CWDP. Only Buffy never really betrayed anyone in the end, not even Dawn. So I was just confused.

[buffyfan21]

I am really torn. Part of me thinks it is the first because Joyce would never say something like that to Dawn, but then the other part of me thinks it really couldn't have been Joyce because she did say that she loved them both. On the other hand, that could have just been the First'sway of manipulating. Overall, I would say it was The First, just because that didn't really seem at all like Joyce. Why would the real Joyce ever say those things to hurt her daughters and try to turn them against each other? And what was she talking about with the whole, "Buffy won't choose you" anyway? Never got that. So, overall I think it was The First trying to plant seeds of discord. More evidence points to that than to it being the actual Joyce, in my opinion.

But then, what about when Joyce appeared in Buffy's dreams, was that really her? Or The First? I think that was The First also.

[Mathieu]

May 13, 2008 14:44:39 GMT -5 buffyfan21 said:

I am really torn. Part of me thinks it is the first because Joyce would never say something like that to Dawn, but then the other part of me thinks it really couldn't have been Joyce because she did say that she loved them both. On the other hand, that could have just been the First'sway of manipulating. Overall, I would say it was The First, just because that didn't really seem at all like Joyce. Why would the real Joyce ever say those things to hurt her daughters and try to turn them against each other? And what was she talking about with the whole, "Buffy won't choose you" anyway? Never got that. So, overall I think it was The First trying to plant seeds of discord. More evidence points to that than to it being the actual Joyce, in my opinion.

But then, what about when Joyce appeared in Buffy's dreams, was that really her? Or The First? I think that was The First also.

I don't think the First could slip into their dreams too. Those were just random dreams.

[ded1]

Maybe it was the first's right-hand man...The Second!lol

[El Diablo Robotico]

May 15, 2008 5:15:03 GMT -5 Mathieu said:

May 13, 2008 14:44:39 GMT -5 buffyfan21 said:

I am really torn. Part of me thinks it is the first because Joyce would never say something like that to Dawn, but then the other part of me thinks it really couldn't have been Joyce because she did say that she loved them both. On the other hand, that could have just been the First'sway of manipulating. Overall, I would say it was The First, just because that didn't really seem at all like Joyce. Why would the real Joyce ever say those things to hurt her daughters and try to turn them against each other? And what was she talking about with the whole, "Buffy won't choose you" anyway? Never got that. So, overall I think it was The First trying to plant seeds of discord. More evidence points to that than to it being the actual Joyce, in my opinion.

But then, what about when Joyce appeared in Buffy's dreams, was that really her? Or The First? I think that was The First also.

I don't think the First could slip into their dreams too. Those were just random dreams.

Agreed. I have all kinds of problems with that ep, but Joyce's appearance is possibly the biggest one. I don't think it was the First, because the First was never shown to have the power to appear in dreams... and Joyce didn't really try to mess with Buffy's head at all. She didn't really tell her much anything, helpful or harmful...

[Skytteflickan88]

Not being able to turn up in dreams? Anyone remember Angel's dreams in Amned? I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the First can mess with people in their dreams.

Look at these dream dialouges that Buffy and "Joyce" have in Bring on the night:

"BUFFY: (surprised) Mom? You're not real.

JOYCE: OK, is that, uh, slang, like you're not for real, or??

BUFFY: You're The First.

JOYCE: Oh, baby, you're so tired, you're not making sense. Maybe you should get some sleep.

BUFFY: No.

JOYCE: You can't win against this thing. Not if you don't rest.

BUFFY: Stop. Stop being like this. It's a lie.

JOYCE: I don't want to scare you, but I want you to take care. (slowly) You need to wake up."

at first it denies that it knows of the first, and then it says to prepear for "this thing". That's suspiscious. And here:

"BUFFY: (examining her cut arm) Ow. Oh. Ah.

JOYCE: Buffy, what happened?

BUFFY: Uh, oh, it's OK, Mom.

JOYCE: I tried to warn you, but?right. The last thing you need now is one of helpful Mom's guilt trips. I'll get you some ice.

BUFFY: No. Mom, I-I can't.

JOYCE: Buffy, you have to heal.

BUFFY: I don't have time.

JOYCE: Are you worried about the sun going down? Because there's some things you can't control. The sun always goes down, the sun always comes up.

BUFFY: Everyone's counting on me.

JOYCE: Well, they do that, and I'm sorry, Buffy, but these-these friends of you put too much pressure on you. They always have.

BUFFY: Something evil is coming.

JOYCE: Buffy, evil isn't coming, it's already here. Evil is always here. Don't you know? It's everywhere.

BUFFY: And I have to stop it.

JOYCE: How are you gonna do that?

BUFFY: I-I don't know yet, but?

JOYCE: Buffy, no matter what your friends expect of you, evil is a part of us. All of us. It's natural. And no one can stop that. No one can stop nature, not even?"

Why would the real Joyce turn Buffy against here friends in a time like this. Eh, eh?

[Mathieu]

May 16, 2008 16:19:03 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

Not being able to turn up in dreams? Anyone remember Angel's dreams in Amned? I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the First can mess with people in their dreams.

Look at these dream dialouges that Buffy and "Joyce" have in Bring on the night:

"BUFFY: (surprised) Mom? You're not real.

JOYCE: OK, is that, uh, slang, like you're not for real, or??

BUFFY: You're The First.

JOYCE: Oh, baby, you're so tired, you're not making sense. Maybe you should get some sleep.

BUFFY: No.

JOYCE: You can't win against this thing. Not if you don't rest.

BUFFY: Stop. Stop being like this. It's a lie.

JOYCE: I don't want to scare you, but I want you to take care. (slowly) You need to wake up."

at first it denies that it knows of the first, and then it says to prepear for "this thing". That's suspiscious. And here:

"BUFFY: (examining her cut arm) Ow. Oh. Ah.

JOYCE: Buffy, what happened?

BUFFY: Uh, oh, it's OK, Mom.

JOYCE: I tried to warn you, but?right. The last thing you need now is one of helpful Mom's guilt trips. I'll get you some ice.

BUFFY: No. Mom, I-I can't.

JOYCE: Buffy, you have to heal.

BUFFY: I don't have time.

JOYCE: Are you worried about the sun going down? Because there's some things you can't control. The sun always goes down, the sun always comes up.

BUFFY: Everyone's counting on me.

JOYCE: Well, they do that, and I'm sorry, Buffy, but these-these friends of you put too much pressure on you. They always have.

BUFFY: Something evil is coming.

JOYCE: Buffy, evil isn't coming, it's already here. Evil is always here. Don't you know? It's everywhere.

BUFFY: And I have to stop it.

JOYCE: How are you gonna do that?

BUFFY: I-I don't know yet, but?

JOYCE: Buffy, no matter what your friends expect of you, evil is a part of us. All of us. It's natural. And no one can stop that. No one can stop nature, not even?"

Why would the real Joyce turn Buffy against here friends in a time like this. Eh, eh?

I didn't remember the dialogue between them two. DEFINITELY the First!

[Mathieu]

I keep giving this a lot of thought and thinking about it I think I still want to convince myself that it really was Joyce talking to Dawn.

I also wonder what Joyce exactly meant by "you". Was that addressed to Dawn or to the gang as a whole?? Because at some point Buffy did choose her mission over her friends, which led to the death of many potentials and caused Xander to lose one eye.

[Rebecca]

I don't think that Joyce in Buffy's dreams were really Joyce, nor do I think they were the First. Buffy was tired and filled with anxiety over the coming battle. They were just manifesting in her dreams. I also don't think that it was Joyce speaking to Dawn. In every other instance of "ghosts" appearing in Buffy, they were manifestations of evil. Jenny. Cassie (filling in for Tara). Warren. The Mayor. Nikki Woods. I do not remember one instance of a ghost appearing that was an actual ghost (with exception to I Only Have Eyes For You which is an out lier).

I do note the inconsistency of modus operandi, however I thought that was to make the audience question Buffy in the coming battle, and also foreshadowed the scoobie's mutiny in Empty Places. As someone noted earlier, it was Dawn who said Buffy "can't be here". The inconsistency could be pointed to fuzzy rules regarding the First along with Espenson's creative need to have Dawn go all exorcist, or that the First simply recruited a demon to frighten Dawn so that she would take her "mother"'s words to heart.

[buffygrl678]

Wat does CWPD stand for?

[henzINNIT]

Conversations With Dead People

[buffygrl678]

May 17, 2008 5:46:14 GMT -5 Mathieu said:

May 16, 2008 16:19:03 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

Not being able to turn up in dreams? Anyone remember Angel's dreams in Amned? I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the First can mess with people in their dreams.

Look at these dream dialouges that Buffy and "Joyce" have in Bring on the night:

"BUFFY: (surprised) Mom? You're not real.

JOYCE: OK, is that, uh, slang, like you're not for real, or??

BUFFY: You're The First.

JOYCE: Oh, baby, you're so tired, you're not making sense. Maybe you should get some sleep.

BUFFY: No.

JOYCE: You can't win against this thing. Not if you don't rest.

BUFFY: Stop. Stop being like this. It's a lie.

JOYCE: I don't want to scare you, but I want you to take care. (slowly) You need to wake up."

at first it denies that it knows of the first, and then it says to prepear for "this thing". That's suspiscious. And here:

"BUFFY: (examining her cut arm) Ow. Oh. Ah.

JOYCE: Buffy, what happened?

BUFFY: Uh, oh, it's OK, Mom.

JOYCE: I tried to warn you, but?right. The last thing you need now is one of helpful Mom's guilt trips. I'll get you some ice.

BUFFY: No. Mom, I-I can't.

JOYCE: Buffy, you have to heal.

BUFFY: I don't have time.

JOYCE: Are you worried about the sun going down? Because there's some things you can't control. The sun always goes down, the sun always comes up.

BUFFY: Everyone's counting on me.

JOYCE: Well, they do that, and I'm sorry, Buffy, but these-these friends of you put too much pressure on you. They always have.

BUFFY: Something evil is coming.

JOYCE: Buffy, evil isn't coming, it's already here. Evil is always here. Don't you know? It's everywhere.

BUFFY: And I have to stop it.

JOYCE: How are you gonna do that?

BUFFY: I-I don't know yet, but?

JOYCE: Buffy, no matter what your friends expect of you, evil is a part of us. All of us. It's natural. And no one can stop that. No one can stop nature, not even?"

Why would the real Joyce turn Buffy against here friends in a time like this. Eh, eh?

I didn't remember the dialogue between them two. DEFINITELY the First!

I remember it, it just wanst in the episode Conversations With Dead People, it was in the episode where she fought the Tourack

[patxshand]

Turok-Han, I believe, is what the Uber-Vamps are called. Not Touracks.

[patxshand]

And the person that talked to Dawn was obviously the First trying to mislead her. The whole MO of the First is to appear to the Scoobs as people who have died that are close to them to try to get them to betray others. It appeared to Faith as the Mayor. There isn't really an argument to back up the idea that it was anything other than The First that talked to Dawn in that episode.