balesthebloody
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Angel's gettin' some! Good on you mate!"[Mo0:0]
Posts: 733
|
Post by balesthebloody on May 17, 2008 20:36:37 GMT -5
What if when Team Angel was sent to Hell everything they were scared or and feared of becoming was made real as punishment by W&H. I mean it kind of makes sense, Wesley being a ghost and serving W&H, Gunn hates vampires, Nina hates being a werewolf, Illyria would hate to share the body with Fred, Lorne helping the gang again and Angel not being able to fight. All of these things have happened. Could this be the case? What do you guys think?
|
|
Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 643
|
Post by Enisy on May 17, 2008 20:46:27 GMT -5
I've heard this theory before, and it does make a certain amount of sense -- although Spike's situation didn't suck, from what he said in Issue 5. ("What do I want... That's a long list of tawdry scenarios. Half of which have been crossed off since I took up with Spider and company, by the way.") Unless he was just showing off to Angel.
|
|
|
|
Post by Wyndam on May 17, 2008 20:49:48 GMT -5
Spike can generally find some form of enjoyment out of any situation though.  So i'd imagine Wolfram & Hart would have to try really hard to bring forth some sort of fear out of him. Although, I imagine the problems with Illyria and Fred will have him worrying quite a bit in "Spike: After the Fall", so perhaps that will be where his issues lie? |
|
balesthebloody
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Angel's gettin' some! Good on you mate!"[Mo0:0]
Posts: 733
|
Post by balesthebloody on May 17, 2008 20:52:04 GMT -5
I've heard this theory before, and it does make a certain amount of sense -- although Spike's situation didn't suck, from what he said in Issue 5. ("What do I want... That's a long list of tawdry scenarios. Half of which have been crossed off since I took up with Spider and company, by the way.") Unless he was just showing off to Angel. His situation doesn't suck as far as we know of at the moment. Something could happen in Spike:AtF. Then Spike could be the odd ball out and that be torture to him. He never has liked being left out or the whole Illyria/Fred being unstable could be his punishment. Seeing her in pain or whatever she has wrong could be taking a toll on him. |
|
|
|
Post by chronicboredom on May 18, 2008 17:28:10 GMT -5
Well Spike having everything and being the hero when Angel cannot do anything because he is human would be pretty sucky for Angel, I'd assume.
|
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on May 19, 2008 1:21:40 GMT -5
If they really wanted to put Spike into a worst-nightmare situation, they'd make him human again. Spike loves being a vampire. Is Angel's worst nightmare really being human? I'd say its more his dream, but that he only wants this dream to come true when the fight is over. His nightmare is becoming Angelus again and killing everyone he loves.
|
|
Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 643
|
Post by Enisy on May 19, 2008 6:27:43 GMT -5
If they really wanted to put Spike into a worst-nightmare situation, they'd make him human again. Nuh-uh. If that was the case, he wouldn't have been competing with Angel for the Shanshu in Season 5 of Angel. He may be coping better with his vampirism than Angel, but that doesn't mean he would say "no" to... feeling alive again, tasting food, going out in the sunlight, having more things to promise Buffy, etc. Even James Marsters was feeling that loss while playing Spike. I think bales is right to hypothesize that Spike's "Hell" would be seeing his loved ones (in this case, Fred/Illyria) in pain. He's always been greatly affected by that. ("What's wrong? Is there something I can do?" ... "I just don't like to see Summers women take it so hard on the chin, is all." ... "I couldn't live, her being in that much pain. I'd let Glory kill me first. Nearly bloody did.") But even so, I think Spike's case is uncertain enough to undermine the whole theory. (Would say something about Spike if the Spider & co. "perks" were part of his personal Hell, though, wouldn't it? I remember speculations along those lines when Issue 2 first came out.) |
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on May 19, 2008 18:04:52 GMT -5
I'd argue that a huge part of Spike's motivation for wanting the shanshu was taking it away from Angel. He felt he deserved the shanshu reward more than Angel and hated that everyone assumed it was Angel who was destined for greatness. He was like 'hello! another vampire with a soul here, don't count me out'. I think being the one who is central to the Shanshu prophecy for Spike is more about being the center of attention, being the hero, than it is about being human.
Besides when has Spike ever said he wanted to be human? Humanity to him was feeling mediocre. I think he'd miss the power and senses, the ability to fight so well. And he doesn't need to be human to feel alive, he's always been able to feel. Spike's not unhappy being a vampire - I can't think of any evidence that truly shows him wanting to be human the way Angel's desire has been established.
|
|
Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 643
|
Post by Enisy on May 19, 2008 18:46:49 GMT -5
I'd argue that a huge part of Spike's motivation for wanting the shanshu was taking it away from Angel. "Bit of both," Spike said. ("He really wants it" and "he wants to take something away from Angel".) I died so many years ago / But you can make me feel / Like it isn't so... Doesn't sound like something that happens very often to him, does it? I don't know... I take it from James, who had to play a vampire for seven years -- and, when asked whether he'd prefer to be a vampire or a human, answered "human, definitely", without a second thought, and choked up when explaining the (mostly Buffy-related) reasons. Plus, episodes like Destiny lose power if you make them All About Angel on Spike's part. |
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on May 19, 2008 19:18:17 GMT -5
I'd argue that a huge part of Spike's motivation for wanting the shanshu was taking it away from Angel. "Bit of both," Spike said. ("He really wants it" and "he wants to take something away from Angel".) Yes its a bit of both. What I was thinking of as well, but he wants to be the hero of the story. Where does he say "I want this so I can be human"? I think its extremely debateable. There's certainty that he wants to spite Angel and that he wants to be the one. Considering Spike's personality, I still feel its because he wants to be the Big Hero just like he wanted to be the Big Bad when he was evil and soulless (as opposed to sortof evil and soulless). I died so many years ago / But you can make me feel / Like it isn't so... Doesn't sound like something that happens very often to him, does it? I'd say there's two ways he feels alive: to love and to fight. He doesn't have to be alive to love. He loved when he was soulless though it was arguably a selfish and obsessive love. Now that he's all soulful...where is the gain for him in becoming human and increasing his ability to love and feel? Being human won't necessarily bring him closer to Buffy because she has a dark side two. If anything, it would take away the affinity they possess as two halves of the same coin. A Slayer in the light who has a dark side within and a vampire in the dark who has a light inside. As for being able to fight, humanity takes away all those nifty abilities he loves so much. He can still fight like human Gunn and Wesley, but he won't be able to be the Big Hero. I don't see him liking that option. Him having to be worried about the limitations of his physical weaknesses would diminish the heat of 'fists and fangs'. I don't know... I take it from James, who had to play a vampire for seven years -- and, when asked whether he'd prefer to be a vampire or a human, answered "human, definitely", without a second thought, and choked up when explaining the (mostly Buffy-related) reasons. I think part of JM's opinion has to do with who he prefers to act. He actively humanized Spike, in some ways subversively, for all the seasons that Spike was soulless. I don't think Spike wanting to be human is true to character, no matter that JM would want to play it. Plus, episodes like Destiny lose power if you make them All About Angel on Spike's part. Nah I don't think its All About Angel, but Destiny is as much about Spike sticking it to Angel as it is him being the glorious victor. And just to clarify, I love Spike just as much if not more than I love Angel's character, so I'm not trying to diminish Spike's humanity. Because I do think he has an incredible amount of humanity inside him. All I'm saying is find a quote or scene from the character that clearly shows that he wants to be human. Preferably as close to the present-narrative time as possible. |
|
Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 643
|
Post by Enisy on May 19, 2008 19:47:36 GMT -5
It's an interesting topic. I'll have to rewatch Season 5 of Angel and get back to you. (Although I do think that Spike telling Buffy she makes him feel alive doesn't hold much weight if "feeling alive" is common in his current existence, instead of something he misses from his former life.)
For the record, I adore Spike as a vampire, and I'm with you that he connects better to Buffy that way. Just trying to suss out how he feels about it in canon.
|
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on May 19, 2008 19:52:33 GMT -5
I just put a new thread with my own take on his actions from 'Destiny'...I thought we were going tangenty and it is such an interesting topic, it should have its own thread.
I will say I was probably exaggerating when I first put that being human would be Spike's worst nightmare. Considering his love for the physical, him being incorporeal would be his worst nightmare. But been there and done that. Plus he's so adaptable that he was able to cope. Its hard to torture Spike, unless you hurt the ones he loves (like you said before).
I think considering Spike's impulsive nature, he probably wouldn't survive very long if he did become human. He'd jump into a fight he couldn't handle in order to save someone.
|
|
balesthebloody
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Angel's gettin' some! Good on you mate!"[Mo0:0]
Posts: 733
|
Post by balesthebloody on May 19, 2008 21:28:43 GMT -5
Spike did have to ask Angel for help, which makes him look weak. That could be his punishment.
|
|
|
|
Post by Wyndam on May 19, 2008 21:39:45 GMT -5
Spike did have to ask Angel for help, which makes him look weak. That could be his punishment. Well I think that is because he is worried about Fred. Spike was never much of a thinker, so I'd imagine he is at a loss about how to help her. Angel and Co. would be able to figure out what was happening with Illyria and Fred better than Spike could alone, hence the help asking. |
|
balesthebloody
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Angel's gettin' some! Good on you mate!"[Mo0:0]
Posts: 733
|
Post by balesthebloody on May 19, 2008 21:42:47 GMT -5
Spike did have to ask Angel for help, which makes him look weak. That could be his punishment. Well I think that is because he is worried about Fred. Spike was never much of a thinker, so I'd imagine he is at a loss about how to help her. Angel and Co. would be able to figure out what was happening with Illyria and Fred better than Spike could alone, hence the help asking. Yet you know that has to eat him up inside. Due to his pride and all! |
|
|
|
Post by hitnrun017 on May 19, 2008 21:43:15 GMT -5
I always loved Spike's softspot for Fred. "Not this woman, not this day" is one of my favorite Spike moments. And according to Spike, getting help with Fred/Illyria is the only reason why he showed up to the fight.
|
|
