Would Spike want to be human again?

[Emmie]

Enisy and I got into a debate over whether Spike would want to be human again on the 'What if this was the case' thread. I thought I'd start a new topic to continue the discussion. I think Spike wants to be a hero more than he wants humanity. Sure he might take the reward offered, but he's not motivated by the reward. He wants to be the hero, the one who makes a difference in the fight. He doesn't need the offer of becoming human to give him hope to go on. What he wants is the fight.

I was analyzing some snippets from 'Destiny' which has the most evidence for Spike's feelings regarding the Shanshu Prophecy below.

ANGEL
OK,Sirk. Point made. Listen, is there anything in the Shanshu that can help us with what's going on?

SPIKE
Yeah. What's it say about me?

He wants to be the center of attention. Its about him, not Angel.

SPIKE
Uh...right.So, what's in it for me?

SIRK
The vampire will have his past washed clean.

ANGEL
And live again in mortal form. Yeah, that part I know.

SPIKE
Yeah, I bet you do.

He wants a reward, but he's not exactly jumping for joy at the thought of being a real boy again.

SPIKE
Whosays it's Angel supposed to take the swig? Who says it's about him at all?

ANGEL
Aw, come on, Spike. You really think this is about you?

SPIKE
Oh, why the bloody hell not? Just 'cause you -

Competition between Angel and Spike. He's playing 'who's gonna win'.

ANGEL
I really wished you stayed a ghost.

SPIKE
But I didn't, did I? Burned up saving the world, and now I'm back for real. Wonder why that is? Oh, wait. 'Cause I'm the one, you git!

He's the one who's gonna save the world and be a hero. Still nothing about him wanting to be human as a reward. And that's almost all Angel can think about when it comes to the prophecy. The reward of humanity is only a small part, but its all Angel seems to really care about. Spike's not fixating on the humanity angle but about being the hero and being worthy.

SPIKE
Here we are, then. 2 vampire heroes... competing to wet our whistle with a drink of light, refreshing torment.

ANGEL
Is that what you think you are - a hero?

SPIKE
Saved the world, didn't I?

ANGEL
Once. Talk to me after you've done it a couple more times.

SPIKE
Done talking, mate. Got a prophecy needs fulfilling.

Spike's a hero. What's more, he wants to be the bigger hero. He wants to be better than Angel.

SPIKE
Well, that's just it. I am. And you know it. You had a soul forced on you�as a curse. Make you suffer for all the horrible things you'd done. But me... I fought for my soul. Went through the demon trials. Almost did me in a dozen times over, but I kept fighting. 'Cause I knew it was the right thing to do. It's my destiny.

Again Spike shows emphasis on his ability to fight. Something made possible by his vampiric abilities joined with his strength of will.

ANGEL
Spike, wait. Wait. That's not a prize you're holding. It's not a trophy. It's a burden. It's a cross. One you're gonna have to bear till it burns you to ashes. Believe me. I know. So ask yourself: Is this really the destiny that was meant for you? Do you even really want it? Or is it that you just want to take something away from me?

SPIKE
(shrugs)
Bit of both.


1. He wants to keep it from Angel. 2. He wants the destiny of being THE hero.


Destiny isn't about Spike desiring to be human - that's Angel's gig. Its about Spike wanting to be the hero. Spike has always wanted the glory and it doesn't get more glorious than being the deciding warrior in THE Apocalypse. That's my opinion.


So what does everyone else think, does Spike really want to be the hero or to be human?

[Enisy]

For those who missed our debate in the other thread, I referenced this quote in favour of the "Spike would want to be human again" angle: I died so many years ago / But you can make me feel / Like it isn't so... -- I don't think Spike telling Buffy she makes him feel alive would hold much weight if "feeling alive" is common in his current existence, instead of something he misses from his former life.

And James Marsters's stance from a report of the Halloween UK Event, 2004:

If you could choose between being a human, living once, and a vampire living through many generations and seeing many things, which would you choose and why?
James Marsters: Human, definitely. I remember -- God this is so powerful, I'm gonna cry. See, here's the actor's secret. What Spike wanted to do with Buffy when he was in love with her? He wanted to give her a garden, a rose garden... (pauses and paces a min. to collect himself, takes a drink of water) (voice shaking) ...because that was alive.

(By the way, Emmie, James said he had more fun playing unambiguously evil Spike, even though he's prouder of the other stuff, so I'm not sure how accurate your counter-argument is.)

Gotta admit I'm ill-equipped for this debate one way or another, since I haven't watched Season 5 of Angel in a while. I'll have to rewatch and get back to you.

[Emmie]

I still have trouble drawing the line between what JM would want and what Spike wants. I think JM's seeing Spike give Buffy a garden was a way for him to tap into method acting Spike's love for Buffy. This doesn't mean its what Spike wanted or what Spike dreamt about. Where's the line to be drawn? JM saying Spike wanted to give Buffy a garden is like him going out and writing a Spike comic without Joss' blessing. Its not canon.

[Emmie]

May 19, 2008 20:16:30 GMT -5 Enisy said:

By the way, Emmie, James said he had more fun playing unambiguously evil Spike, even though he's prouder of the other stuff, so I'm not sure how accurate your counter-argument is.

Which argument? About him acting more human, in a subversive way?

I was thinking of how people have said JM acted with "more soul than was written'. Thats why people have trouble distinguishing between soulful Spike and soulless Spike. Because JM had been playing up Spike's inner humanity for a long time.

Here's a slayage article to that effect:
slayageonline.com/essays/slayage16/Symonds.htm

[Enisy]

May 19, 2008 20:23:43 GMT -5 Emmie said:

I still have trouble drawing the line between what JM would want and what Spike wants. I think JM's seeing Spike give Buffy a garden was a way for him to tap into method acting Spike's love for Buffy. This doesn't mean its what Spike wanted or what Spike dreamt about. Where's the line to be drawn? JM saying Spike wanted to give Buffy a garden is like him going out and writing a Spike comic without Joss' blessing. Its not canon.

Didn't say it was; it's just what you said, James tapping into the Method. But that quote just adds to the impression I'd gotten from other interviews of his, where he said he had to practically starve himself in later seasons, because vampires are a metaphor for hunger, and he had to isolate himself from cast and crew, because that's how Spike was, and adopt a viewpoint that the world was out to get him, because that's how Spike viewed it -- didn't sound like a particularly happy existence, as he experienced it, and he seemed to attribute that to Spike's vampirism more than Spike's personality.

[Emmie]

May 19, 2008 20:35:48 GMT -5 Enisy said:

May 19, 2008 20:23:43 GMT -5 Emmie said:

I still have trouble drawing the line between what JM would want and what Spike wants. I think JM's seeing Spike give Buffy a garden was a way for him to tap into method acting Spike's love for Buffy. This doesn't mean its what Spike wanted or what Spike dreamt about. Where's the line to be drawn? JM saying Spike wanted to give Buffy a garden is like him going out and writing a Spike comic without Joss' blessing. Its not canon.

Didn't say it was; it's just what you said, James tapping into the Method. But that quote just adds to the impression I'd gotten from other interviews of his, where he said he had to practically starve himself in later seasons, because vampires are a metaphor for hunger, and he had to isolate himself from cast and crew, because that's how Spike was, and adopt a viewpoint that the world was out to get him, because that's how Spike viewed it -- didn't sound like a particularly happy existence, as he experienced it, and he seemed to attribute that to Spike's vampirism more than Spike's personality.

I don't think Spike was particularly happy in those seasons of his life. It was a time of metamorphasis and marginalization for him. "Can't be a human, can't be a vampire - where the hell do you fit in?" And the soul was a one of the final steps in his metamorphasis. Him taking up the role of hero in ANGEL season 5 is another step. Again, I'd argue that its Spike's vampirism that makes it possible for him to be close to Buffy during Season 7 and understand her, the balance of darkness and light.

The best night of his life being when he held her and gave her comfort in 'Touched'. I see his unhappiness in the later seasons stemming from being cut off from Buffy. Which he attributed to her denial of her darker nature at first, then his inability to understand her lighter nature which sent him off to get a soul. So he'd never hurt her again, but also so he'd be deserving as an equal in both the dark and lighter sides of his nature. So the best night of his life happened when he was a vampire in 'Touched', when Buffy allowed intimacy with him. He was accepted by her. What he truly wanted. Spike being human would put him in the column of someone to be protected by Buffy - he'd hate that. Not being able to stand at her side.

Spike wears the badge of VAMPIRE so proudly (hello, vampire here!) that I don't see him wanting to trade it in so he can skip in sun-dappled fields of flowers. Being a vampire sets him apart from the herd and being a souled vampire makes him even more special. Spike becoming human would be a return to mediocrity, or how I feel he'd view it. He doesn't have much respect for his former human self.

In Fool for Love, Spike says "Becoming a vampire is a profound and powerful experience. I could feel this new strength coursing through me. Getting killed made me feel alive for the very first time."

I think we're looking at this from two different perspectives, Enisy. I'm looking for evidence shown from the scenes of the show, what's heard coming out of Spike's mouth. While you're looking at JM's motivation and how he tapped into acting the character and understanding his desires.

Why would he want to change now when he has the humanity of his soul and the strength of his vampiric nature?

[balesthebloody]

I think that Spike would be too proud to admit that he wanted to be human again. I think that he would think that it would make him look like a "Nancy Boy" and too much like Angel.

[Enisy]

May 19, 2008 21:03:53 GMT -5 Emmie said:

I think we're looking at this from two different perspectives, Enisy. I'm looking for evidence shown from the scenes of the show, what's heard coming out of Spike's mouth. While you're looking at JM's motivation and how he tapped into acting the character and understanding his desires.

Nnnnnno, I'm just stalling you until I watch Season 5 of Angel again. But you make some really good points; I don't think I'd given this perspective proper consideration before.

[gunsandsmoke]

When we first met Spike in Buffy he wanted to kill another Slayer. Wanted to cause more damage. Wanted more power and nothing else. Then through a series of events he started to change his motives. He wanted to be close to Buffy. He wanted her love so bad it caused him to go fight for his soul back. Then once he had that he wanted to fight the good fight along side of Buffy. When the chance came for him to die a hero he jumped. It then seemed he had done everything he wanted to do (even get Buffy to say she loved him). But when he came back in Angel, I think his motives were all over the place. I don't think he ever really thinks about being human because he has his soul back. He likes being a vampire with a soul. The whole thing about him fighting with Angel about who is the "Champion" is just brotherly competition. Plus he is younger (in vampire years & how long he has had his soul back) than Angel. Maybe in a few decades he will get the urge to be human again. Also, remember than Angel is cursed with a soul. If he falls in love, he goes back to Angelious. That is reason enough to want to just be a human. Spike fought for his soul back. There is no curse attached to it.

[patxshand]

For me, I think this is the easiest question in the 'verse. Of course he wouldn't want to be human. One of the fundamental differences between Angel and Spike is that Spike actually *likes* being a vampire.

[Skytteflickan88]

I have no idea what Spike wants. If he got the ceto be human, he might take it.

I read the Destiny thing like this: Spike wanted to piss Angel of and be with Buffy, so he took what he thought was a once in a lifetime/eternity opportunity and drank from the cup. I'm not sure if he would actively try to become human tough, especially now when he seems to have come to terms with his love for Buffy. Why become human if he doesn't get the girl?

But honestly, I really don't now. But i think he likes his life as it is now. Sure, he's not exactly walking around with a smile on his lips, but i don't think he really really wants to be human.

[henzINNIT]

He would love to be shanshu'd. The only difference between Spike and Angel is that Spike acts like he doesn't care; and thats because Spike hates that he's exactly the same as Angel.

[balesthebloody]

May 20, 2008 12:35:37 GMT -5 henzINNIT said:

He would love to be shanshu'd. The only difference between Spike and Angel is that Spike acts like he doesn't care; and thats because Spike hates that he's exactly the same as Angel.

That is the way I see it too. Spike has NEVER liked Angel, probably never will. The thought of himself being like Angel eats him up on the inside.

[Wyndam]

I think deep down, Spike would not mind being a human. In Season 5 of Angel, Spike ceased to be a "do-gooder" strictly to gain Buffy's love, but he continued fighting the good fight because he likes the idea of redemption and getting that reward at the end. This was a pretty significant change for him, imo. There will always be a rivalry between Spike and Angel, because they are brothers in arms, but I don't think that Spike ever wanted to be Shanshu'd just because Angel did.

And Emmie you made some interesting points in your original post. As for Spike wanting to be the Hero, what better way to prove he is one by stopping a few more Apocalypse's and being granted humanity?

It really is a hard question to answer, which is why I love the Buffyverse so much. Everyone has their varying opinions, and can usually prove their points very convincingly.

[patxshand]

The way I see it, people are so obsessed with Spike the romantic that they forget Spike the ass-whooper. Spike, soul or no soul, loves the heightened strength and intense sexuality that comes with being a vampire. If asked, I'm sure post-soul Spike would still call the siring process one of the best moments of his life. Spike's arc in Season Seven showed that he wasn't *just* the sappy romantic, but the essence of Spike was love, violence, lust, and badassery.

My most basic understanding of Spike's relationship with Angel is quite the opposite of Bales'. Spike's deepest desire is to be like Angel. Hence the champion talk in AtF#2. That's just another of the reasons he hated Angel. Angel had Buffy's love--which Spike wanted. Angel had humanity (the act of being humane, not being a human)--which Spike eventually wanted. Angel was a champion--which Spike wanted to be, and eventually did become. Angel had Drusilla's affection--which Spike wanted only to himself. Spike is disgusted that he wants all that, and hates Angel for having it, and so pretends to want to be everything that Angel isn't... only to hide that Angel's status is what he wants to (and has to a point) achieved. The only reason Spike ever hinted that he might want humanity was so he could have something that Angel never had. However, the one true difference between Spike and Angel is that Angel wants to be a human. But Spike loves being a vampire.

[Enisy]

May 20, 2008 15:12:31 GMT -5 patxshand said:

The only reason Spike ever hinted that he might want humanity was so he could have something that Angel never had.

I wouldn't say so... That would only cover half of Spike's "bit of both". (Agree with the rest of your post, though. I have such a soft spot for underdogs...)

Loved reading everyone else's answers, too. It's a really fascinating topic.

[Emmie]

May 20, 2008 15:46:35 GMT -5 Enisy said:

May 20, 2008 15:12:31 GMT -5 patxshand said:

The only reason Spike ever hinted that he might want humanity was so he could have something that Angel never had.

I wouldn't say so... That would only cover half of Spike's "bit of both". (Agree with the rest of your post, though. I have such a soft spot for underdogs...)

Loved reading everyone else's answers, too. It's a really fascinating topic.

I don't think Spike's "bit of both" comment necessarily means he wants humanity. I think he wants the glory of battle in the apocalypse more than the reward of humanity. The thrill of the moment is his drug. Angel's always been about results, the end game, where as Spike lives in the moment. Spike's battles with the past slayers were a crazy, huge gamble esp. the first one when he was still so young. The payoff was the glory and I think he sees the payoff of being the Big Hero as glory, not humanity.

And I totally agree with patxshand, Spike loves being a vampire. And gunsandsmoke makes a good point that Angel is meant to suffer with his soul, so becoming human is the only true redemption for him that allows him happiness. Spike can be happy without becoming human, Angel can't.

Here's a question: What would Spike gain from becoming human?

[Enisy]

Listed some stuff above. I don't disagree that he copes very well with his vampire status, but if he actively disliked the thought of becoming human... he wouldn't have drunk from that cup.

[wenxina]

A pulse. Mortality. A shot at a quasi-normal relationship with Buffy (if we have to go down that road again). But then again, same things that Angel would gain.
However, Spike's on a "champion" trip. Buffy called him that; she's the first, and possibly the only person to have ever called him that, so hey, it means something. Probably means more that Buffy gave the amulet to him, after insisting that Angel leave. In short, Buffy allowed Spike a moment of glory that she denied Angel.
So, like Angel, becoming human would mean relegating himself to the "victim" class, unable to fight back for the most part... I know there's a disparity between human strength portrayal in Buffy and Angel, but that's another issue altogether.
Can't be a champion if you can't really fight back and protect. So I dunno... I'm not even sure if either of them would really want their humanity back.
It's nice to have that Shanshu prophecy lingering about like a security blankie, but I dunno if either Spike or Angel are ready for that ultimate "reward" right now.

EDIT: Drinking from that cup... it was just an ol' boys slugfest. Who bested who for the reward. Were they really thinking? I think the temptation of the reward got to them.

[Emmie]

Hell I've taken a shot on a dare. Have to man up for the consequences when pride takes the wheel.