Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 643
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Post by Enisy on May 20, 2008 17:01:05 GMT -5
Yeah, there are many disadvantages to humanity, and they were brought up in both shows, most notably in Helpless and I Will Remember You (which I feel undermined the concept of the Shanshu in general).
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Post by themaleslayer on May 20, 2008 17:05:20 GMT -5
I think he enjoys being a vampire too much to want to be human again.
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Post by Emmie on May 20, 2008 17:07:11 GMT -5
I wonder though, maybe becoming human might be the best thing if the Buffyverse is going to banish magic and demons from this dimension a la Fray. What'll happen to the odd vamp out who doesn't shanshu?
I wish there'd been some exploration of Spike's struggle to not feed on people once the chip was removed. The soul makes him connect to people, to care and feel guilty, but he still has to feel the desire. Everytime he hears a heartbeat racing or smells blood from a cut. Does he struggle for self-control like Angel did in those flashbacks in 'Orpheus'?
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Post by wenxina on May 20, 2008 17:17:07 GMT -5
Yeah, there are many disadvantages to humanity, and they were brought up in both shows, most notably in Helpless and I Will Remember You (which I feel undermined the concept of the Shanshu in general). Why? Because I thought it raised an interesting question instead. So the blood of the demon restores your heartbeat and all, but was there ever any clarification on whether or not it restored your soul? Because hey, Angel already had a soul, so all he needed was a heartbeat to make him a bonafide human again. But what if you were a regular vampire and got some of that blood on a cut? Would you be a remorseless killer still, or does it actually make you fully human, with the soul as an added bonus? Never explored I don't think, but definitely interesting. But regardless, I don't understand how it undercuts the importance of the Shanshu? Angel chose to be restored, even after he was afforded the easy way out. He decided to go fighting. If nothing else, he's decided that to atone for his many sins (as well as to be of use to Buffy, and the world in general), he will need to do it the hard way; i.e. rely on the prophecy coming true at some point.
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Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 643
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Post by Enisy on May 20, 2008 17:19:18 GMT -5
I wonder though, maybe becoming human might be the best thing if the Buffyverse is going to banish magic and demons from this dimension a la Fray. What'll happen to the odd vamp out who doesn't shanshu? I wish there'd been some exploration of Spike's struggle to not feed on people once the chip was removed. The soul makes him connect to people, to care and feel guilty, but he still has to feel the desire. Everytime he hears a heartbeat racing or smells blood from a cut. Does he struggle for self-control like Angel did in those flashbacks in 'Orpheus'? Oh, Spike had to talk himself into biting that girl in Smashed, even while soulless. I think his sense of self-worth or potential would be too strong in Buffy's vicinity for him to be tempted like Angel was (pre-Buffy).
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Post by wenxina on May 20, 2008 17:21:32 GMT -5
I wonder though, maybe becoming human might be the best thing if the Buffyverse is going to banish magic and demons from this dimension a la Fray. What'll happen to the odd vamp out who doesn't shanshu? Lurks exist in the Fray's world, so I don't think that it would be quite that detrimental. All you need is one anyway, to sire a legion. wish there'd been some exploration of Spike's struggle to not feed on people once the chip was removed. The soul makes him connect to people, to care and feel guilty, but he still has to feel the desire. Everytime he hears a heartbeat racing or smells blood from a cut. Does he struggle for self-control like Angel did in those flashbacks in 'Orpheus'? One would assume that if the soul is innately good, then yes, he probably struggled. And I figured that the lack of depiction was time constraint dependent. And since it had already been established for us by Angel (the original vampire with a soul), it would probably have been superfluous to us as an audience. The focus should have been elsewhere, such as developing the external plot while the internal plot could be well, internal, i.e. showing not telling.
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Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 643
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Post by Enisy on May 20, 2008 17:29:25 GMT -5
But regardless, I don't understand how it undercuts the importance of the Shanshu? 'Cause of what you said earlier: "Can't be a champion if you can't really fight back and protect. So I dunno... I'm not even sure if either of them would really want their humanity back." Nothing made that "catch" as painfully clear as I Will Remember You, so... as glad as I am that Angel found himself a sense of direction and hope, in the form of the Shanshu, I always have to pause and wonder whether it's humanity he's really chasing after, or just a chimera.
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Post by Emmie on May 20, 2008 20:35:11 GMT -5
I wonder though, maybe becoming human might be the best thing if the Buffyverse is going to banish magic and demons from this dimension a la Fray. What'll happen to the odd vamp out who doesn't shanshu? Lurks exist in the Fray's world, so I don't think that it would be quite that detrimental. All you need is one anyway, to sire a legion. Yes but its not clear how lurks remained in the dimension. Maybe they were all banished and some returned through another portal. I don't think we can say with certainty that Angel and Spike are safe from something that banishes demons from this dimension. Unless they become human. wish there'd been some exploration of Spike's struggle to not feed on people once the chip was removed. The soul makes him connect to people, to care and feel guilty, but he still has to feel the desire. Everytime he hears a heartbeat racing or smells blood from a cut. Does he struggle for self-control like Angel did in those flashbacks in 'Orpheus'? One would assume that if the soul is innately good, then yes, he probably struggled. And I figured that the lack of depiction was time constraint dependent. And since it had already been established for us by Angel (the original vampire with a soul), it would probably have been superfluous to us as an audience. The focus should have been elsewhere, such as developing the external plot while the internal plot could be well, internal, i.e. showing not telling. I know there's time constraints and we've already seen Angel's struggles. But that's just why I want to see it. Will Spike react the same way as Angel? They could have even shared a line during AtS season 5 about what its like being around so many humans day after day. Like: Spike: "Doesn't it drive you crazy sometimes? Angel: "What?" Spike: "That noise...the heart, the beating. I can hear it, sometimes its all I can hear."
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Post by Emmie on May 20, 2008 20:49:34 GMT -5
I wonder though, maybe becoming human might be the best thing if the Buffyverse is going to banish magic and demons from this dimension a la Fray. What'll happen to the odd vamp out who doesn't shanshu? I wish there'd been some exploration of Spike's struggle to not feed on people once the chip was removed. The soul makes him connect to people, to care and feel guilty, but he still has to feel the desire. Everytime he hears a heartbeat racing or smells blood from a cut. Does he struggle for self-control like Angel did in those flashbacks in 'Orpheus'? Oh, Spike had to talk himself into biting that girl in Smashed, even while soulless. I think his sense of self-worth or potential would be too strong in Buffy's vicinity for him to be tempted like Angel was (pre-Buffy). When I think of Spike struggling, I don't mean him having to talk himself out of biting someone. But the senses that vampires have that make them hyper aware of humans - hearing their heartbeat, the blood swooshing thru our veins, the scent of blood from a wound. Being around humans and remembering how good they taste. I think its worthy of exploration in understanding how Spike is different now. I don't think the soul makes it go away, nor loving Buffy will magically make it easier for a vamp to ignore all the walking food around them. How has he changed since the soul? My understanding of his character before Grave is much clearer than it is now. Because these issues haven't been explored. In some ways he seems exactly the same, but I think its just that he's still discovering who he is now and his character growth couldn't be explored as much on screen in AtS because he was more actively a foil for Angel than his own agent. Just like Angel was able to more fully grow as a character away from Buffy.
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littleshiva
Common Vampire
i wish to do more violence.[Mo0:3]
Posts: 88
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Post by littleshiva on May 25, 2008 18:32:05 GMT -5
I don't think Spike would want to be human. More than any other vamp in the series, he positively relishes being a vampire. He loves everything about it. He loves being bad, he loves being a demon (even ensouled), he loves being eternally young and pretty, he loves beating the crap out of people with his super-strength, and he loves blood. He just doesn't have the same longing to be human that Angel does--unlike Angel, he doesn't need to be human in order to experience perfect happiness without consequences. Angel needs to be human to be whole, Spike doesn't.
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Post by piratequeensusan on May 26, 2008 21:51:10 GMT -5
This may be kind of radical, and doesn't answer the question, but the way I see it, Angel already has the shanshu.
Connor.
Past wiped clean and gets to live until he dies?
All fullfilled via Connor.
Just MHO.
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Post by ericthered on May 28, 2008 12:52:20 GMT -5
Give all that up? no way! Unless he could be some sort of superhuman, no way would he give it up.
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balesthebloody
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Angel's gettin' some! Good on you mate!"[Mo0:0]
Posts: 733
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Post by balesthebloody on May 28, 2008 15:09:39 GMT -5
If he KNEW that he could be with Buffy, he would take humanity in a heart beat! He may not be showing it now, due to you know the forecast for Los Angeles being Hell and all, but I think that he WILL start to miss Buffy again. No matter how hard a person may try the will never forget someone they truly love. Spike is that shallow. Angel gave up being human for Buffy. Spike won't do that.
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Post by snizapman6294 on Aug 31, 2008 18:19:39 GMT -5
i think the only way he'd want to be human is to be with buffy again. other than that i think he'd stay a vampire.
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Harmony
Psychic Link to the PTB
"I can't control it anymore..." [Mo0:0]
Posts: 808
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Post by Harmony on Aug 31, 2008 18:21:19 GMT -5
No he likes being a vampire... i think he'll want to stay vamp.
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Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 643
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Post by Enisy on Aug 31, 2008 18:46:58 GMT -5
James addressed this at DragonCon just a couple of days ago:
James was asked about who deserved the shanshu more: Spike or Angel? He said, "Well, since David has Bones, I do." He laughed. Then he was like, "But Spike would say, 'I don't want it.'"
And there's a thingy from David Fury's 2005 Sacramento Q&A. Have I posted it? In any case...
Fury pitched an ending to Joss for Angel, in which Angel wins the Shanshu and then "gives" it to Spike. This enrages Spike as not only doesn't he want it but he hates that Angel gives it to him even though he could now go to be with Buffy. Joss turned the idea down because he argued that making Spike human pretty much destroys any future for the character and he wanted to have the option to return to Spike in the future.
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Post by Emmie on Sept 1, 2008 2:53:10 GMT -5
Excellent, Enisy! I feel vindicated You must have the greatest index of quotes on your computer. Are they cross-filed or do you have them memorized? Just kidding, I'm just very impressed with your knowledge as always.
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Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 643
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Post by Enisy on Sept 1, 2008 4:30:25 GMT -5
I just save whatever catches my interest in a text file.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Sept 1, 2008 6:20:50 GMT -5
That's a great idea. I'm going to get a quote-base on my computer.
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