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Post by Emmie on Aug 8, 2008 20:25:39 GMT -5
Interesting thoughts, chasmatic. I hadn't thought about it from that perspective.
If Willow did have an initial altruistic motive and then used dark magics to live long enough to make this happen with the time ripple, I think her plan has backfired. She's clearly battling the dark influences inside her and they have colored her perspective because she now has an appreciation for evil vamp Harth's methods and the way he spreads the "beloved infection".
Maybe she is battling the darkness inside herself. I do think she's different from the Dark Willow we saw fueled by grief and rage in season 6. But is this difference merely the ennui that sets in for an immortal over centuries of existence or from her internal battle between the dark magic she possesses (and consequently possesses her) and the essential goodness of her character?
We'll have to wait and see. Like you said, maybe she is just evil.
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Post by KingofCretins on Aug 8, 2008 20:56:10 GMT -5
The last couple posts here had me thinking about what implications there are to FDW. How evil she might be or not and how that will affect the story. I realized that I don't think FDW will *have* any implications beyond "Time of Your Life", other than as a cautionary tale, definitely to Buffy, probably to Willow. I realize that she is probably completely self-contained to this arc, not someone that's going to be acting again in the future. I think that "Time of Your Life" is a single-story nightmare vision, like the ST:TNG episode "Yesterday's Enterprise" was. The Buffy episode "The Wish" was a little like this as well. That is to say, Buffy is going to see some truly horrible things, as will the audience, but they will be there to teach something and may ultimately be averted. More than anything, I was thinking of the cover of 8.19 -- a scene I suspect is either the instant before or after Buffy is returned to the present. She's either helpless and about to be wiped out by FDW or she's panicked and confused and afraid of Present Willow. And I think I know why. It's also why Joss can make it "okay" to re-write Fray's future out of existence. She's going to die. Harth and/or Willow is going to kill Melaka Fray and Buffy's going to watch. Not only a girl she clearly likes, but also the only remaining symbol of her legacy is going to be destroyed in front of her. That's my prediction. Maybe it's even the lesson that Willow wants to teach Buffy. Certainly Melaka's fate is on her mind, or she wouldn't ask Harth about his thoughts on it. Fray's future is already pretty hopeless. She is but one Slayer, and it's clear that Harth (perhaps with Willow's help, even in the original series) has spread vampirism far behind any hope Mel has of reigning it in. But Joss knows fans have an emotional attachment to that time and place, so in one tragic move he can render that moot and leave us with nothing to even guess at about where Season 8 and Season 9 are going.
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Post by wenxina on Aug 8, 2008 21:02:55 GMT -5
Or, and I'm just pulling this out of almost nothing (I'm kinda watching the rerun of the opening ceremony of the Olympics), it's Buffy that does the slaying of Fray. There would be your betrayal of the closest and most unexpected, and the guilt from such an act could be the cause of the crying Buffy seen in #10. Add to that, the cuts and bruises would be expected in a Slayer vs. Slayer fist-fight. Again, I'm bored, and feeling speculative thanks to Emmie's goading.
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Post by Wyndam on Aug 8, 2008 21:20:47 GMT -5
Or, and I'm just pulling this out of almost nothing (I'm kinda watching the rerun of the opening ceremony of the Olympics), it's Buffy that does the slaying of Fray. There would be your betrayal of the closest and most unexpected, and the guilt from such an act could be the cause of the crying Buffy seen in #10. Add to that, the cuts and bruises would be expected in a Slayer vs. Slayer fist-fight. Again, I'm bored, and feeling speculative thanks to Emmie's goading. That's certainly an interesting thought. The idea that Buffy could kill Fray would certainly rock the foundation of the series and certainly cause some heavy fan reaction as well. Something similar happened in a recent Star Wars series, where Jacen Solo (a powerful Jedi and son of Han and Leia Solo), began killing Jedi for (what he thought) the greater good, and later turned to the Dark Side. I'd certainly be interested in seeing what could actually force Buffy to kill Fray in the future. While we have no evidence to support this may actually happen, thanks, wenxina, for coming up with something new for me to think about.
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vipertm
Innocent Bystander
We only see in others what we see in ourselves[Mo0:2]
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Post by vipertm on Aug 8, 2008 21:42:43 GMT -5
I have to say I originally thought, and was rooting, for the mysterious figure to be Dru, but after reading this issue I'm far more intrigued by where the FDW storyline may go. The four pages with her and Harth interacting were my favorite part of this issue.
Some people are wondering why Future Dark Willow would have gone through the trouble of brining Buffy to the future instead of taking another route of action since she seems to be so powerful. I think this has a lot to do with what FDW says on page 7, "Tonight. The princess leaves her Kingdom for the forest of the now." Firstly the princess reference brought me back to the whole slayers thinking they're above the law and Willow being upset when she found out about Buffy's criminal activity. Secondly I think it has alot to do with Buffy feeling too comfortable in the present (as if its her kingdom), whereas she's now in the dark, scary forest and she can see how she really did change the world (not necessarily for the better - especially when it comes t othe English language lol). Depending on where this storyline goes I think it could be on the same wavelength as what Twilight was trying to accomplish by destroying Buffy's moral certainty. Also the events in the past are kind of mimicking what FDW said. The castle is destroyed and in the last panel we saw Xander and Dawn riding off into a forest.
Confusion:
- On page 8 FDW says that "Vampires gain strength from each other. Slayers ultimately, don't." I thought this was really weird seeing as I thought the reason Buffy lasted as long as she did was because she had friends and family to support her. So then wouldn't the slayer army acting as a support system make them stronger as a group. Looking back on some of the fights this season is seems as though the slayers protect eachother,i.e., Buffy giving Satsu advice in The Long Way Home while they were fighting the army, the unknown slayer in The Chain saving her friend.
Speculation:
- On page 7 Harth says, "In the dream, you hurt me. Not just fighting -- you're connected to someone I love." I don't necessarily remember Dark Willow hurting anyone Buffy loved in Season 6 so I thought that in the future Willow might do something to Satsu.
- I think what FDW said on page 8 about the "beloved infection" might have something to do with the upcoming "vogue" arc. The fact that FDW used the word beloved could mean that she either has sided with the vampires and believes in whatever they are trying to accomplish or that vampires have become common knowledge and so people want to be lurks.
- Concerning Dawn / Xander, I could possibly see it happening. Dawn has been feeling very insecure with her physical appearance a Wander has been nothing but comforting and complimentary. Also Dawn might not want to rush into another physical relationship considering what happened last time, but at lease she can feel safe with Xander. In that sense I could see why Xander would be right for Dawn but I can't see why he would need her at this point in his life.
Just Wondering:
- Just curious if Robin (Anywhere But Here) will ever return. When Willow and her were talking Willow said they hadn't met yet but they would later on. Was willow referring to them being introduced later on in that same issue or later on as in the distant future?
I can't wait for the next issue. I want to know what FDW meant by "The world's loss. Of her failure."
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spurtyknowledge
Rogue Demon Hunter
I'm wired to the world.
"She told them that the only grace they could have was the grace they could imagine."[Mo0:25]
Posts: 411
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Post by spurtyknowledge on Aug 8, 2008 21:49:40 GMT -5
Great theories, wenxina and King.
I'll definitely have an emotional reaction to Fray's death if it does come to pass in Time of Your Life. Whedon has built her up to be such a great character, and giving her the axe would really be very common for him. I still stand by my opinion that she deserves at least another couple of issues in her own verse before she's killed off.
It does however make perfect sense that Fray would have to die, probably even at Buffy's own hand, for Buffy to have the motivation to change the present.
Really can't wait to see how it all goes down.
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Aug 8, 2008 22:40:00 GMT -5
Confusion:- On page 8 FDW says that "Vampires gain strength from each other. Slayers ultimately, don't." I thought this was really weird seeing as I thought the reason Buffy lasted as long as she did was because she had friends and family to support her. So then wouldn't the slayer army acting as a support system make them stronger as a group. Looking back on some of the fights this season is seems as though the slayers protect eachother,i.e., Buffy giving Satsu advice in The Long Way Home while they were fighting the army, the unknown slayer in The Chain saving her friend. Well, when Faith and Buffy were Slayers together they clashed. That's because there is only supposed to be ONE slayer...not more than one. If there's more than one, they each have problems (like the slayer that wants to use guns). One slayer means more control and they can basically fight in whatever style they want to.
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vampmogs
Novice Witch
[Mo0:16]
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Post by vampmogs on Aug 8, 2008 22:43:05 GMT -5
Confusion:- On page 8 FDW says that "Vampires gain strength from each other. Slayers ultimately, don't." I thought this was really weird seeing as I thought the reason Buffy lasted as long as she did was because she had friends and family to support her. So then wouldn't the slayer army acting as a support system make them stronger as a group. Looking back on some of the fights this season is seems as though the slayers protect eachother,i.e., Buffy giving Satsu advice in The Long Way Home while they were fighting the army, the unknown slayer in The Chain saving her friend. Well, when Faith and Buffy were Slayers together they clashed. That's because there is only supposed to be ONE slayer...not more than one. If there's more than one, they each have problems (like the slayer that wants to use guns). One slayer means more control and they can basically fight in whatever style they want to. That's how I interpreted it as well. Just check out 'No Future For You' and it shows the negative effects Buffy and Faith can have on eachother. Or season three. Willow would know all about that and their history together. And as Faith states in 'Empty Places' "maybe that's why you and I could never get a long, there was always just supposed to be one?"- If she's right it doesn't look good for season eight though does it?
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chasmatic
Rogue Demon Hunter
In her fruitless kingdom...[Mo0:33]
Posts: 460
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Post by chasmatic on Aug 8, 2008 22:45:50 GMT -5
Confusion:- On page 8 FDW says that "Vampires gain strength from each other. Slayers ultimately, don't." I thought this was really weird seeing as I thought the reason Buffy lasted as long as she did was because she had friends and family to support her. So then wouldn't the slayer army acting as a support system make them stronger as a group. Looking back on some of the fights this season is seems as though the slayers protect eachother,i.e., Buffy giving Satsu advice in The Long Way Home while they were fighting the army, the unknown slayer in The Chain saving her friend. I think this season, though, has really been building up the notion that though slayers get anchored by friends and family, other slayers just get in the way. It's seemed sort of like there's a rising tension. We saw from the beginning of the Faith/Buffy relationship that they couldn't get along. Also, Buffy herself has said that she doesn't feel the connection she should to her slayer army. Also, with the Buffy/Faith relationship being brought up again (I'm thinking now on purpose to highlight slayers' lack of ability to get along), Genevieve's slaying of slayers, and other things like Kennedy's hostility toward Buffy in #16. It seems like all of this hostility is rising to something. Also, about Dander, I don't think it's going to happen. There have been heavy, heavy implications, but right now I think Joss is just toying with us. I mean, from the beginning, Dawn had a crush on Xander and he was always sweet to her. Yes, there have been instances of sexuality, but I just don't see the two getting together.
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dane5by5
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
[Mo0:0]
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Post by dane5by5 on Aug 9, 2008 1:51:55 GMT -5
Speculation:- On page 7 Harth says, "In the dream, you hurt me. Not just fighting -- you're connected to someone I love." I don't necessarily remember Dark Willow hurting anyone Buffy loved in Season 6 so I thought that in the future Willow might do something to Satsu. I can't wait for the next issue. I want to know what FDW meant by "The world's loss. Of her failure." The way I interpreted the talk between Harth and FDW was that Harth had dreamt of the fight between Buffy and Willow in season six, and he wasn't aware that the connection he felt as Buffy, was that it was FDW herself that Buffy loved. And I'm pretty certain as FDW speaks of "The world's loss. Of her failure." is referring to how the Slayers go from thousands to one... half. Obviously Buffy plays a role in that.
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Post by abnormalpenguin on Aug 9, 2008 3:36:08 GMT -5
Hmm...
Speculation here, but with the points brought up earlier, about how ground shattering it would be if Buffy for some reason had to kill Fray, I've had a couple of thoughts.
One thing that has been discussed by fans time and time again has been a scenario where a slayer was turned into a vampire. I believe it was explored in one of the Tales of the Slayers novels, but we haven't had really any solid example in the show, etc. So...
What if Buffy's actions in the past are what led to Fray having to face Harth?
What if Fray not only loses, but is then turned by her brother?
It would put Buffy in the position of having to kill Fray, and also she would feel guilty for her being turned in the first place.
She would then go back to her time to try and prevent key events from happening that would have lead to this final confrontation. This would also put her in a very bad place as far as the "mission" goes. Also if FDW were involved in these events we'd get some stress on their friendship in the present.
***POSSIBLE SPOILERS***
Which with some of the upcoming arcs coming up could be interesting, such as Oz's return etc. Another interesting tidbit. The whole comment from Harth about Buffy and Willow, "In the dream, you hurt me. Not just fighting--you're connected to someone I love." This does not necessarily mean Season 6, it could be anytime in the past including events past where we are at in the present timeline of season 8. So... one could say, this could allude to several things. Satsu has been mentioned as the possible connection. It could be Dawn or Xander, depending on what exactly the connection Willow has. But theres already been some speculation on the possibility of Boz. Or Buffy and Oz possibly being romantically linked. Alot of this is hearsay right now, but since we know he is returning, plus the secret rendezvous might have been him for all we know, one could argue that this connection could also be Oz. Anywho, would be interesting to see what comes out of that.
Also we've been told that vampires will become in "vogue" soon. I wonder if the reason that vampires are all of a sudden public knowledge will be tied to Buffy. It could be that all of these strong young women all of a sudden running around could lead to the inevitable discovery of the existence of vampires. Or perhaps Buffy herself inadvertently exposes them. She could also even purposefully enlighten the world the truth, in response to what happens in the future. Maybe she feels by bringing them to light, she can prevent what happens in the future. In any of the above scenarios, I can't see her being too thrilled if the response from the publics is not "Oh noes vamps!" But instead "Yay vamps!". Again she could feel responsible. Things aren't looking too good for the Buffster.
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valyssia
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 36
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Post by valyssia on Aug 9, 2008 4:47:33 GMT -5
I dunno guys. You're welcome to speculate as you like. If you enjoy this, that's great, but I'm getting progressively more fed up with season 8. It's a nightmare of recycled plot lines and pitiful retcon.
I see TOYL as season 6.5. That's pretty much what we're getting. It can only end with the complete alienation of Willow as a character. That'll be positive. She'll end up back in Witchy A.A. It'll be a thing.
It's just like with the Faith arc. 'No Future for You' was pretty much season 3.5. It entirely dismissed any growth that Faith experienced as a character between season 3 and season 8.
I can't understand why Joss keeps devolving the characters. They've all backslid on some level. As bad as I hate to admit it again the Angel series is the better animal. Joss worries a whole lot less about who is screwing who and a whole lot more about really telling a story. It's like when he looks at Buffy, his brain falls out and he becomes a fourteen-year-old fan girl writing for fourteen-year-old fan girls. "Cinnamon Buns!" I don't get the obsession. Just tell me a good story, 'kay?
The only arc, in my opinion, at this point, that's worth more than one read is Wolves despite mega-Dawn and the stupid bot.
I think Joss needs to pass the keys. It's pretty obvious he could care less about these characters. If he did care he'd take them new places instead of tromping over the same old ground.
My vote: pass the keys to Drew Goddard. Let him drive for awhile.
Val
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Patches
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Post by Patches on Aug 9, 2008 5:19:38 GMT -5
I kind of wonder, what if Dark Willow intention is not to actually to bring Fray timeline into being but make sure that it never came to pass. What I mean is, Dark Willow goal might be to push Buffy to kill Nice Willow before she becomes Dark Willow.
This could actually be the Betrayal from issue 10: Buffy betrays and backstabs her best friend.
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dane5by5
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 734
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Post by dane5by5 on Aug 9, 2008 7:03:49 GMT -5
I dunno guys. You're welcome to speculate as you like. If you enjoy this, that's great, but I'm getting progressively more fed up with season 8. It's a nightmare of recycled plot lines and pitiful retcon. I see TOYL as season 6.5. That's pretty much what we're getting. It can only end with the complete alienation of Willow as a character. That'll be positive. She'll end up back in Witchy A.A. It'll be a thing. It's just like with the Faith arc. 'No Future for You' was pretty much season 3.5. It entirely dismissed any growth that Faith experienced as a character between season 3 and season 8. I can't understand why Joss keeps devolving the characters. They've all backslid on some level. As bad as I hate to admit it again the Angel series is the better animal. Joss worries a whole lot less about who is screwing who and a whole lot more about really telling a story. It's like when he looks at Buffy, his brain falls out and he becomes a fourteen-year-old fan girl writing for fourteen-year-old fan girls. "Cinnamon Buns!" I don't get the obsession. Just tell me a good story, 'kay? The only arc, in my opinion, at this point, that's worth more than one read is Wolves despite mega-Dawn and the stupid bot. I think Joss needs to pass the keys. It's pretty obvious he could care less about these characters. If he did care he'd take them new places instead of tromping over the same old ground. My vote: pass the keys to Drew Goddard. Let him drive for awhile. Val I'm not gonna touch TOYL = season 6.5. I'll wait until each issue has been released. But I have to agree to some extent about NFFY = season 3.5. More so for Buffy and Giles as characters than Faith. It frustrated me that Buffy was so quick to turn on Faith yet again. As many people have said. But Faith seemed torn between her season 3 and season 7 self, which I liked. The end with her growing past her season 7 character was perfect. Giles once again going behind Buffy's back, he's always been like that. So it doesn't really come as a surprise that he's still like that. And one can understand that he does it to spare Buffy pain. Wolves at the Gate has been my favourite arc so far too. But Time of Your Life is shaping up nicely. I think it will be difficult to understand Willow's character arc this season until we know what happened to her between season seven and eight. Something important went down in the interim. And until that is revealed it's going to be a guessing game.
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Post by Emmie on Aug 9, 2008 13:44:33 GMT -5
If you enjoy this, that's great, but I'm getting progressively more fed up with season 8. It's a nightmare of recycled plot lines and pitiful retcon. I see TOYL as season 6.5. That's pretty much what we're getting. It can only end with the complete alienation of Willow as a character. That'll be positive. She'll end up back in Witchy A.A. It'll be a thing. It's just like with the Faith arc. 'No Future for You' was pretty much season 3.5. It entirely dismissed any growth that Faith experienced as a character between season 3 and season 8. Wow a lot of new faces in the Season 8 discussion board. That's awesome! And this is a bit off-topic for Issue 17 but I wanted to address the comments about 'No Future For You'. Val, in regards to saying NFFY was "pretty much season 3.5", I respectfully disagree. I think this Faith-centric arc does an admirable job of showing her continuing struggle to find the right way. And she's tested in a similar way to how she was tested in Season 3. NFFY starts off showing Faith alone and then later being offered friendship and acceptance by Gigi, the same things Faith desired from the Mayor in season 3. In her reaction we're shown how she's grown as she tries to show Gigi there's another way and that the murderous slayer is being manipulated by an older man. It's poignant for as Faith is trying to save Gigi, she's really trying to save herself. The arc asks the question - is redemption possible? Faith loses Gigi yet in the end her belief in fighting the good fight and working for redemption is NOT shaken. We end with her looking to Giles and dedicating herself to helping more girls out there, the ones on the edge, the ones who need her the most. This is a more developed Faith than the one we've seen in Season 7 because she is tested away from all the examples of Buffy and Angel. In AtS s4, Faith is working to save Angel, her mentor and arguably her best friend. This is done out of self-interest as well as the greater good as Angel is needed to fight the Big Bad. Her actions tell us no more than she loves the big guy and wants him back. For all we know, Faith still thinks fondly of the Mayor in her mind at this point. In BtVS s7, Faith and Buffy initially clash but find a working truce and even moments of fond bonding as Buffy talks to Faith at her bedside. Faith joins the fight already in progress and its dire, end of the world stuff. So the good side is clear to her just as it was in AtS. NFFY tests Faith's growing confidence in doing the right thing by giving her a situation where "right" isn't clearly illuminated, where she's alone in deciding what to do. And in a brilliant fashion, Faith grows and becomes an even stronger individual. In the beginning of NFFY, Faith is a bit scornful of the noob slayers and keeps to herself. By the end, she wants to reach out and help them, save the ones who need her. That's growth to me. As for the recycled feel of Buffy and Faith fighting again, well what more can you expect? Buffy is teleported into a situation where she's attacked by a slayer attempting to kill her? Conclusion - trap and everyone associated with this girl wants her dead. Then Faith jumps outs out and tackles her through a window, saving this girl trying to murder Buffy in the process. Girl trying to kill Buffy + Faith saving girl from Buffy = Buffy thinking Faith is trying to kill her too. I get the Buffy logic, it's all jumpy and presumptuous and real. Remember she's reacting in the heat of battle and Faith just attacked her while rescuing a girl who just admitted to killing slayers. As for Faith strangling and drowning Buffy, that's more indicative of the battle within herself that she's projecting on Buffy. Faith's friendship with Gigi is bringing up old memories of her good ole evil days and she's fighting that image of herself. Buffy showing up brings all those issues to the surface and the knee-jerk reaction of blaming Buffy. Faith is furiously resisting the label of evil at this point and nearly kills Buffy in her attempt to deny what Buffy as always symbolized to her - the good slayer that makes her the bad slayer. Yet she pulls back in the end. She was tested and she passed. I don't see how this can be viewed as regression. Yes, it deals with similar issues from season 3 and 7, but that's real. People struggle with similar issues throughout their lifetime, especially ones that test their character. Faith didn't regress in this arc, she grew. I really don't want Joss to hand the wheel over for someone else to drive. If Joss weren't in charge, I doubt season 8 would exist. As for Drew Goddard taking up the reigns, while I hugely enjoyed 'Wolves at the Gate' I see that as a collaborative effort. Main credit goes to Goddard for writing the arc, but Joss as executive producer breaks all the main story arcs and approves the direction of the finished script. The writing is a collaborative effort between Joss and his arc writers.
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brandonr
Potential Slayer
"That's mine." "Well you're about to get it back."[Mo0:0]
Posts: 168
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Post by brandonr on Aug 9, 2008 14:34:24 GMT -5
The theory about Buffy having to kill Fray for one reason or another is definitely interesting, but I don't necessarily think that Fray will end up being dead. Just because Buffy kills her in the future in TOYL, doesn't mean that Fray will cease to exist all together in the future of the Buffyverse, or even that she won't be a Slayer in that future. It just means that because Buffy will have returned to the past and done things a little differently that the Fray we saw in "Fray" could be slightly or completely different, but still be there all the same.
Of course, if you really want to get time paradox-y about it, you could say that Buffy going into the future to see what her actions caused and meeting Fray is the VERY thing that causes her to make the certain choice or choices in the present day Verse that will eventually bring about Fray's future anyway.
Nature of the beast when you open up the time travel issue.
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Post by Emmie on Aug 9, 2008 15:08:59 GMT -5
Of course, if you really want to get time paradox-y about it, you could say that Buffy going into the future to see what her actions caused and meeting Fray is the VERY thing that causes her to make the certain choice or choices in the present day Verse that will eventually bring about Fray's future anyway. Nature of the beast when you open up the time travel issue. Exactly! This time travel arc is getting very confusing. We have enough trouble speculating without throwing time paradoxes into the mix. I've been thinking about Season 8 and it's growth from Season 7, specifically the relationships of the Scoobies. The friendship between Buffy and Willow hasn't been the same since Buffy came back from the dead and Dark Willow's first appearance in season 6. Maybe this trip will help Buffy and Willow realize the distance between them needs to be bridged. I hope season 8 is working towards a reconciliation and stronger bond between Buffy, Xander and Willow. Their friendship is the heart of this story and while it makes for good drama to have them fight, I think it makes for better drama and a greater message if they can overcome these obstacles. That is the true test of friendship and I'm waiting for the Scooby closeness. We got a taste of it in the first issue of ToYL from Buffy and Xander, but Willow was still being a bit distant and slightly off to me. I'm waiting for that Buffy/Willow hug where Willow lets go of blaming Buffy for Tara's death and Buffy genuinely embraces Willow for the first time since her resurrection. It seems a bit ironic to be wishing for this right after a Dark-ish Willow has returned in ToYL, but I'm hoping this is a method of tearing down their friendship in order to build it back up again.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Aug 9, 2008 15:12:12 GMT -5
Regarding the theory of Mel possibly dying at the end of ToYL, I was just looking back thru the old Scott Allie and Joss interviews (trying to find a certain comment about the #21-25 arc), and came across this: www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=12803I take that as pretty strong evidence that Mel's gonna make it thru this, because I think her death probably would rule out a sequel (unless Warren's built a Melaka-bot?). I also get the impression from that that Harth will probably survive thru ToYL, too, from the comment about a sequel still being "necessary"--ie, being necessary to finally deal with him, once and for all. And personally, I hope that's the way it turns out, because Harth shouldn't be killed off in "Buffy", where Mel's little more than a supporting character. It should be under the "Fray" title, where she gets the spotlight back to herself once again...
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valyssia
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Post by valyssia on Aug 9, 2008 15:45:34 GMT -5
Wow a lot of new faces in the Season 8 discussion board. That's awesome! And this is a bit off-topic for Issue 17 but I wanted to address the comments about 'No Future For You'. Oh, I'm far from new. I signed up the first week this board was live. I just haven't had much to say. And 'yes,' this might be seen as slightly OT. What I intended it to be were a list of examples. It's impossible to make the point without examples. My point: I'm not thrilled. I don't see how this can be viewed as regression. Yes, it deals with similar issues from season 3 and 7, but that's real. People struggle with similar issues throughout their lifetime, especially ones that test their character. Faith didn't regress in this arc, she grew. It's funny, you expend so much energy arguing against me and then in the last paragraph you agree. My point was 'recycled plot.' You support that conclusion in this paragraph. I really don't want Joss to hand the wheel over for someone else to drive. If Joss weren't in charge, I doubt season 8 would exist. As for Drew Goddard taking up the reigns, while I hugely enjoyed 'Wolves at the Gate' I see that as a collaborative effort. Main credit goes to Goddard for writing the arc, but Joss as executive producer breaks all the main story arcs and approves the direction of the finished script. The writing is a collaborative effort between Joss and his arc writers. Oh I'm not by any means saying that I want the books to become 'Drew Goddard's Season 8.' Joss should stay at the helm, but he should step down from writing. He's lost his passion for these characters. It shows in every word. As to the actual subject of 'Time of Your Life.' Willow has been jerked around, devolved and evolved more than any other single character here. Example: In TLWH she couldn't even find her way off of a table. The plot smacked of PWIP (Put Willow In Perl) something that Joss laughed about in season one when Willow was the token 'girl to save.' That was her role on the show. In NFFY Willow grabbed a delivery driver magically and teleported him to the castle. Random at best. It was Willow from season 4, all too powerful and causing hyjinx. In WATG Willow hat tricked with Dracs sword, admittedly he told her exactly what to do to save the day. But we also see her turn I chunk of concrete into a swimming pool. She's much more together and much more what you think she should be basically from Issue 10 on. I suppose it makes some sort of sense, what with the character growing seven seasons in one, for her to be a revealed as dark goddess by issue 17. That doesn't keep it from feeling a little off. It also smacks heavily of season 6. I get that it won't be an exact plot recycle. With Fray in the mix, it can't be. But you'd think that in roughly three - four years between season 6 - 8 there would've been a small amount of maturation on the part of at least one of these characters. Willow is described as being 'away.' I sort of hoped it would be her. 'Away' indicates to me that the constant stream of strife the other face under Joss' pen that keeps them from moving forward might not have splashed on her pretty green dress. And that's really my point. A constant stream of torture with no opportunity to learn lessons and grow as people isn't storytelling, it's just plain old blase' sadism. It's cruel. Good story should have lesson. It should have reflection. It should show development. There's none of that in Buffy's world. The characters bounce their heads off the same walls over and over. I find it hard to watch. Val
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Post by Emmie on Aug 9, 2008 16:25:51 GMT -5
Wow a lot of new faces in the Season 8 discussion board. That's awesome! And this is a bit off-topic for Issue 17 but I wanted to address the comments about 'No Future For You'. Oh, I'm far from new. I signed up the first week this board was live. I just haven't had much to say. And 'yes,' this might be seen as slightly OT. What I intended it to be were a list of examples. It's impossible to make the point without examples. My point: I'm not thrilled. Hi Val! I know you're not new, I was more acknowledging the widened growth of discussion posts in season 8. We have some regulars who keep the discussion going (El Diablo and Wenxina, for example) but there's been a growth of varied posts recently. Just remarking that it's cool. The OT comment was more addressed at myself since I was going on and on about NFFY. It's funny, you expend so much energy arguing against me and then in the last paragraph you agree. My point was 'recycled plot.' You support that conclusion in this paragraph. Val, my main argument was taking issue with reference to NFFY as season 3.5. And my post was mostly to address your statement that "No Future for You' was pretty much season 3.5. It entirely dismissed any growth that Faith experienced as a character between season 3 and season 8." I disagreed and went on to show how Faith's character growth was integrated into NFFY - that the character growth was not dismissed. I "extended so much energy" making the point that Faith's character growth was consistent and moved forward in NFFY. And my concluding paragraph more touches on the fact that it makes for consistent character growth that Faith still carries the same issues with her into NFFY. She struggles on the path to redemption - its a theme, in fact THE theme of her character arc ever since she broke down crying in Angel's arms in 'Five by Five'. That's not recycling, thats progression of the character's greater story. I really don't want Joss to hand the wheel over for someone else to drive. If Joss weren't in charge, I doubt season 8 would exist. As for Drew Goddard taking up the reigns, while I hugely enjoyed 'Wolves at the Gate' I see that as a collaborative effort. Main credit goes to Goddard for writing the arc, but Joss as executive producer breaks all the main story arcs and approves the direction of the finished script. The writing is a collaborative effort between Joss and his arc writers. Oh I'm not by any means saying that I want the books to become 'Drew Goddard's Season 8.' Joss should stay at the helm, but he should step down from writing. He's lost his passion for these characters. It shows in every word. Shows this where? I very much disagree that Joss has lost his passion for the characters, but if you can back this up with textual evidence I might be better able to see your perspective. As to the actual subject of 'Time of Your Life.' Willow has been jerked around, devolved and evolved more than any other single character here. Now you're hitting on a topic that does bother me with character development - Willow. Her growth and development are so out of this world, I have trouble caring about her character. Amy said it best in 'The Killer In Me': "Willow always had all the power, long before she even knew what to do with it. Just came so easy for her. The rest of us—we had to work twice as hard to be half as good. But no one cares about how hard you work. They just care about cute, sweet Willow. They don't know how weak she is. She gave in to evil—stuff worse than I can even imagine— She almost destroyed the world! And yet everyone keeps on loving her? (in Kennedy's face) So what's wrong with having a little fun, huh? Taking her down a peg or two?" Willow has power come too easily for her and she never has to deal with the consequences as fully as other characters on the show. I sometimes wish that the Charmed concept of spells for personal gain coming back to haunt the spellcaster were applied to Willow - she abuses magic and her power a lot and other people get hurt, not her. I still disagree with your points about Faith's development being mishandled, but I'll jump on the Willow train as far as questioning her being held realistically culpable for her actions. I could go on and on, but this post is already getting too long even for me - and as the lover of uber long posts, that's saying something.
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