|
Post by wenxina on Aug 9, 2008 16:34:06 GMT -5
The theory about Buffy having to kill Fray for one reason or another is definitely interesting, but I don't necessarily think that Fray will end up being dead. Just because Buffy kills her in the future in TOYL, doesn't mean that Fray will cease to exist all together in the future of the Buffyverse, or even that she won't be a Slayer in that future. It just means that because Buffy will have returned to the past and done things a little differently that the Fray we saw in "Fray" could be slightly or completely different, but still be there all the same. Those are exactly my thoughts! Diablo and I have been having PM conversations, and this was exactly the point I made to him. And this is why I hate time travel! Necessary evil I guess, since the entire reason for S8 and I guess, especially this arc, is to address the continuity rift between the present-day Buffyverse and Fray's time.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Aug 9, 2008 16:53:21 GMT -5
As to the actual subject of 'Time of Your Life.' Willow has been jerked around, devolved and evolved more than any other single character here. Example: In TLWH she couldn't even find her way off of a table. The plot smacked of PWIP (Put Willow In Perl) something that Joss laughed about in season one when Willow was the token 'girl to save.' That was her role on the show. Yes, she had to be rescued, but let's not forget that the point was that the spell that bound her would drain power from her if she tried anything, hence the challenge: "Go dark..." There are times when even Superman falls. Roden was using magic from a book with Twilight's insignia on it. If Twilight's as powerful as he seems, it wouldn't be a stretch that some of the spells there are amazingly powerful, and probably hard to trace. I really don't understand this argument. Make Willow powerful and in control, and she's way too strong. Give her a few mistakes, and suddenly she's causing hijinxes. That's a fair assessment, and given the fact that Willow can now teleport (she wasn't able to in S6, even as Dark Willow, according to Anya), I'd say that most of the things she does in WatG is pretty believable. My only gripe is that she flew Andrew to the castle instead of teleporting him there. The reason she and Buffy didn't teleport in #10 was because she wasn't sure where the place was exactly. The castle's location should be pretty familiar to her now, so I don't understand the flying bit. Maybe Andrew wanted to play Lois, and Willow wanted the scenic route, but whatever. I'm going to hold off on this for now, since I'd prefer to see the arc in its entirety before judging it. I guess we're not watching/reading the same show then.
|
|
|
Post by KingofCretins on Aug 9, 2008 17:00:06 GMT -5
Faith's development is not only not "off", "No Future For You" is basically the best story yet told for the character. If that arc as a regression for Faith, she would have, either cynically or enthusiastically, killed Genevieve when she had her alone in 8.07. Instead, it's pretty obvious by the end of that issue that Faith has no intention of completing this mission as scripted intentionally. And, in point of fact, when Genevieve dies it is an accident, something Faith is clearly broken up over. She had developed so much since the crucial changes in her in the "This Year's Girl" - "Who Are You?" - "Five By Five" - "Sanctuary" arc that not only is she no longer able to just kill someone, she has developed that sense of duty to try to help or redeem people that she learned particularly from Angel (but could have learned from Buffy in later seasons). Other points of clear growth -- - She basically rejects the Mayor's influence and worthiness as a father figure, something she still wasn't ready to do in "Touched".
- She is not visibly horribly contemptuous of relationships anymore, despite it not having worked out with Robin.
- She really does understand that her life isn't Buffy's fault, or she wouldn't have let her up.
Really, we've never seen Faith in a more awesome place, which is why I really can't wait for her to return. Willow just can't seem to win. Half the time she's too powerful, and, apparently, if she's not too powerful, she's a victim. For me, it's hard to think of Willow as retreading *anything* since we've never seen Willow like this much at all. She is emotionally distant from everybody but Kennedy, really. She acts like her relationship with Buffy is more of a duty (even as FDW, a duty of sorts), and she hasn't actually had a single one on one conversation with Xander at all that we've seen, which is especially alarming given that, to borrow from Willow herself, those two are (usually) the two who are the two. So whether or not she's in peril or an uber-PWN witch, she's showing us nothing but new. Just because she has veiny face in the 23rd century doesn't make it a Season 6 retread. Xander, Dawn, and Giles are all in decidedly new places (and in the case of Xander and Dawn, damn overdue, both of them getting to shine heroically in 8.17). The only person who really *is* retreading anything old is Buffy herself, with the leap-off-the-page parallels to Season 6 Spike from her I-need-to-be-happy tryst with Satsu. But has there been a season yet that didn't retread at least one plot line from a previous season? It's rhetorical, the answer is no. As to my theory about Fray, I don't see Buffy killing her. I just can't figure how in two issues, Buffy could get to that place where she'd be willing to, let alone for Joss to give a phlebotenous reason why she *should* -- Melaka is fighting the good fight. My prediction very much relies on Harth and/or Willow doing the killing.
|
|
brandonr
Potential Slayer
"That's mine." "Well you're about to get it back."[Mo0:0]
Posts: 168
|
Post by brandonr on Aug 9, 2008 17:13:17 GMT -5
I think its a bit premature to be saying that there are no lessons in Season 8. If I remember right, someone asked Scott Allie a question similar to "What's the big theme/lesson/moral of Season 8, or will there be one like there has with past seasons?" and his basic answer was that there is some type of moral/lesson that Joss is working towards with these characters, but that it is too early to fully understand or realize what it is. I mean, we're JUST nearing the halfway point of this series, so why should we expect to get the lesson that he's trying to teach these characters? Give the man some time.
And I don't think Joss has lost any love for these characters, nor do I think he's lost the skill for writing them. He's written some of his best ever Buffyverse lines here--Lez-faux anyone?--and the characters have progressed, in my opinion. I'll conceed that as of this point there seems to be some regression, however small with Willow's character, and I definitely think that her abuse of magic has continued, post Dark Willow. But I'm willing to suspend judgment for now and go along for the ride until we see what Joss has in store for us.
Besides, if I ever felt like Joss was doing wrong with the characters, or that his skill for writing them was completely wacked, I'd just stop buying the books.
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Aug 9, 2008 17:27:28 GMT -5
Just had some interesting thoughts on Willow's character and how she's not the one to pay the biggest price for her abuse of power. I never thought I'd say this, but Charmed did a better job of showing magic and its possible consequences when you compare it to Willow. I think the rule that spells for personal gain come back to haunt the witch is the more responsible way to go.
Willow's spells (when they go wrong or she abuses her power) end up hurting other people and then indirectly upsetting her. She never has to carry to full weight of her responsibility to this power. I've begun to suspect that Willow's growth in power is more of a way to 'bring on the pain' to the other characters and cause drama. So the more powerful Willow becomes, the more she can hurt her friends and cause angst. Buffy happy good, Buffy in pain better, right?
So basically Willow's outrageous growth as a beginner witch to nearly witch goddess occurs in only 5 years - she picks up witchcraft like an idiot savant, minus the idiot. It makes me feel like this extremely rapid growth happened so that they could USE Willow to cause pain and save the group. How else would we get Buffy back from the dead unless Willow had become an uber powerful witch in under two years of practice?
I just have trouble believing that Willow has such a natural affinity for magic that she's THAT powerful, but doesn't acquire the respect that would seem to accompany such a natural talent. Her gift was just plucked out of the air because it was useful and interesting. Maybe that's true for a lot of Buffyverse storylines, but I seem to have an issue with Willow's.
|
|
|
Post by magicegidius on Aug 9, 2008 18:14:03 GMT -5
Power consumes you...
This happens also to Phoebe during season 7 at Charmed...
I understand it very well
And we must not forget that we don't know what happened in all these years, and why Willow does the things she do
|
|
brandonr
Potential Slayer
"That's mine." "Well you're about to get it back."[Mo0:0]
Posts: 168
|
Post by brandonr on Aug 9, 2008 21:18:13 GMT -5
The thing that gets me about Willow is that after S6, she seemed to tap dance around the subject of magic, even outright saying "No" to using it in some circumstances, and being very antsy about using it most of the time throughout season 7. So how is it that from Seasons 7 to 8 she became THAT okay with using magic whenever she felt it necessary, damn the circumstances or the consequences to all hell. Granted, we don't have much idea of what occured between the end of the 7th season and the start of the 8th during the year-and-a-half absence we had from the characters, but we know that Kennedy kind of "died" and that Willow had a hand in bringing her back. We also know that she's developed more than just a familiar relationship with Saga Vasuki, and we also know that she was largely absent from the group and off with Kennedy for a portion of that time.
I realize people change quickly, but Willow was so put off by the thought of whipping her wand out whenever and for whatever (so to speak) that it seems like somehow she's completely reversed her thinking and decided: Why have the pizza delivered when I can fly to pick it up, or teleport it here?
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Aug 9, 2008 22:11:10 GMT -5
I just finished re-watching Chosen and the scene where Willow makes all the potentials slayers and her hair goes white. Compare that to 8.03 where her eyes go black after she fights Amy. Combine this with the shift in her reluctance to use magic that brandonr points out and it makes me wonder...
What did happen with Saga Vasuki between Chosen and Long Way Home? 'Cause I remember thinking after Chosen that Willow had conquered the black magic and learned to tap into the good magic and the earth. But no, in Long Way Home she's regressed to the black eyes.
What price did Willow have to pay to bring Kennedy back from the dead? Is this why she's now going dark-ish?
|
|
|
Post by KingofCretins on Aug 9, 2008 23:23:08 GMT -5
I'll go you one better, Emmie... what if it was Vasuki who actually facilitated the Slayer spell? Acted through Willow, like something did in "Becoming, Part II"? That could explain the "oh... my... goddess" reaction. It might also explain just why she would seek out such a powerful being in the first place. It *also* might be able to explain why... - Kumiko, another Vasuki student, was carrying out the reversal.
- Why Vasuki showed Willow a vision of the scythe.
- Why Willow has been so secretive about her sources, and what they are telling her.
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Aug 10, 2008 0:03:05 GMT -5
So King and I worked out a theory about Willow that incorporates a bunch of different elements.
Saga Vasuki is an extremely powerful mystical being who first noticed Willow when she tried to end the world in Grave - attempting to end the world tends to create ripples in the mystical community. So she started watching Willow and the growing situation in Sunnydale. Vasuki doesn't want the First to manifest on Earth, bad guys don't like competition for top dog, so she taps into Willow and makes the Slayer Spell possible.
After Chosen, Vasuki contacts Willow by revealing her involvement in the Slayer Spell and lures her into a meeting. She wants Willow as an apprentice. Kennedy follows Willow to Vasuki, a confrontation happens which results in Kennedy's mystical death and Willow is forced to bargain with Vasuki to revive Kennedy. Shaken by almost losing Kennedy forever, Willow runs away from Vasuki.
Vasuki is possessive and upset that Willow has reneged on their agreement so she reaches out to another of her students, Kumiko. She tells Kumiko about the scythe and the Slayer Spell, also revealing that the scythe can be used to depower slayers as well. That which Vasuki first gave - all potentials turned into Slayers - she can take away. This whole maneuver is orchestrated by Vasuki to show Willow she can't run away from her mentor nor the agreement she's made. Vasuki channels a message through Kumiko to Willow that lures them to NYC.
|
|
spurtyknowledge
Rogue Demon Hunter
I'm wired to the world.
"She told them that the only grace they could have was the grace they could imagine."[Mo0:25]
Posts: 411
|
Post by spurtyknowledge on Aug 10, 2008 0:04:10 GMT -5
I'll go you one better, Emmie... what if it was Vasuki who actually facilitated the Slayer spell? Acted through Willow, like something did in "Becoming, Part II"? That could explain the "oh... my... goddess" reaction. It might also explain just why she would seek out such a powerful being in the first place. It *also* might be able to explain why... - Kumiko, another Vasuki student, was carrying out the reversal.
- Why Vasuki showed Willow a vision of the scythe.
- Why Willow has been so secretive about her sources, and what they are telling her.
That's been my interpretation of it for a while King. I'm definitely at the edge of my seat when it comes to what happed with Willow between Chosen and The Long Way Home, especially how the return of Oz will come into play with that as I was just watching one of the earlier season four episodes wherein Oz expresses his concern over Willow's journey into magic. What will be his reaction to knowing Willow almost destroyed the world? So King and I worked out a theory about Willow that incorporates a bunch of different elements. Saga Vasuki is an extremely powerful mystical being who first noticed Willow when she tried to end the world in Grave - attempting to end the world tends to create ripples in the mystical community. So she started watching Willow and the growing situation in Sunnydale. Vasuki doesn't want the First to manifest on Earth, bad guys don't like competition for top dog, so she taps into Willow and makes the Slayer Spell possible. After Chosen, Vasuki contacts Willow by revealing her involvement in the Slayer Spell and lures her into a meeting. She wants Willow as an apprentice. Kennedy follows Willow to Vasuki, a confrontation happens which results in Kennedy's mystical death and Willow is forced to bargain with Vasuki to revive Kennedy. Shaken by almost losing Kennedy forever, Willow runs away from Vasuki. Vasuki is possessive and upset that Willow has reneged on their agreement so she reaches out to another of her students, Kumiko. She tells Kumiko about the scythe and the Slayer Spell, also revealing that the scythe can be used to depower slayers as well. That which Vasuki first gave - all potentials turned into Slayers - she can take away. This whole maneuver is orchestrated by Vasuki to show Willow she can't run away from her mentor nor the agreement she's made. Vasuki channels a message through Kumiko to Willow that lures them to NYC. Great theory, but Kennedy seems to have little to no idea about Willow's magic, let alone have met Saga Vasuki. "But headline: Death! And I didn't say a word about your six-month mystical walkabout..." - Anywhere But Here "'Course, I wouldn't hate a hint as to who your source is...or any indication at all about what's supposed to happen here..." - Time of Your Life Part I
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Aug 10, 2008 0:15:12 GMT -5
Good point, Spurty Knowledge. So let's say that Kennedy's mystical death was caused by Vasuki or perhaps Willow went to Vasuki to revive Kennedy. In the end, Willow still owes Vasuki something.
|
|
|
Post by KingofCretins on Aug 10, 2008 0:21:54 GMT -5
I was going to jump in as well to point out Vasuki could have zapped Kennedy before Kennedy actually knew what was going on.
|
|
spurtyknowledge
Rogue Demon Hunter
I'm wired to the world.
"She told them that the only grace they could have was the grace they could imagine."[Mo0:25]
Posts: 411
|
Post by spurtyknowledge on Aug 10, 2008 0:23:44 GMT -5
It does certainly seem like she is bound to Vasuki, and not in the disturbingly sexy "snake around my nude figure" way.
|
|
Patches
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 19
|
Post by Patches on Aug 10, 2008 2:11:26 GMT -5
About Faith and "recycling" of 3.5 storyline:
NFFY was very much consistent with Faith character growth. Faith was tempted with exactly what she wanted in season 3 - soulmate. GG was what Faith tried to remake S3 Buffy into: cool, listens to the same songs, still stuck-up Princess but knows to have fun, "two of them will rule the world", etc.
S8 Faith understands that this is no longer what she needs. She outgrew that. Instead she tries to warn GG and to save her from making same mistakes.
Another interesting point is how her accidental killing of GG affects her. In S3 accident with Alan Fitch practically destroyed Faith. (In fact, if I remember it correctly, original plans was for Faith to kill herself at the end of Consequences).
S8 Faith is upset about accident but understands that this was an accident, and goes-on.
Now about Faith and Buffy fight. Result of many fights in Buffyverse is dictated by emotional state of the characters, e.g. fight between Buffy/Angelus in Becoming 2, or fight between Faith/Buffy in Graduation Day. Essentially physical fight is an allegory of emotional conflict: the person who is more together wins. What does Faith defeat of Buffy says here: Faith, even in the middle of the psychotic break is more at peace with herself than Buffy? Quite interesting. And quite a reversal of their roles in the story.
Faith's memory of the Mayor. She still remember him fondly but understands that he wanted to control her.
Finally her decision at the end of the story to go out there and save the souls of the lost slayers. She no longer define herself around Buffy. She found her own purpose. She started to move-on. And yes, she would be better consoler than Buffy was in S7 (although it probably impossible to be worse). I predict that this decision will also make a come back later, when Faith will return to save Buffy from herself.
All together, NFFY was the next logical step in Faith character development and very much different from all her stories before.
|
|
valyssia
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 36
|
Post by valyssia on Aug 10, 2008 4:41:19 GMT -5
Yes, she had to be rescued, but let's not forget that the point was that the spell that bound her would drain power from her if she tried anything, hence the challenge: "Go dark..." There are times when even Superman falls. I'm not even sure where you are getting this. If it was in the book I must've missed it. I read it once and that was enough. Plenty...the nausea lasted a week. Honesty, a number of people here have been kicking around how obscenely powerful Willow is. We're talking about raw consistency. Check this. Last time I saw her working under a counter spell it went a little like this: There's obscenely powerful and that was S6. Now how is it they were holding her exactly? There's nothing dark about 'give me strength.' Yes, she was evil when she used it, but-- Do the rules change based on the writer's mood? It always seemed to me that Willow was as powerful as she needed to be in a moment. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As to the rest of your points and the others. My statements were very general. If you look at them in that fashion and ignore the nuances, you can't help but see that I have a point. But then any trained writer will tell you that there are really only seven stories: 1 - (wo)man vs. nature 2 - (wo)man vs. man 3 - (wo)man vs. the environment 4 - (wo)man vs. machines/technology 5 - (wo)man vs. the supernatural 6 - (wo)man vs. self 7 - (wo)man vs. god/religion There are thousands of ways to tell these stories. Perhaps, hundreds of thousands. You can even weave between the different story types and create and amalgam. What I was saying was that Joss isn't doing that. He's stale and falling back on the past. NFFY the overview: Faith is tempted, Faith falls to temptation, Buffy kicks her butt. TOYL the overview to date: Willow is hurt, Willow uses magic to feel better, her friends are put in perl. Does anyone have a yellow Crayon handy? You guys are WELCOME to disagree. Heck, I welcome it, but look and think for just a sec first. At this point I'm just buying the stupid books out of some irrational, compulsive desire to collect the set. *shrugs* Val
|
|
vampmogs
Novice Witch
[Mo0:16]
Posts: 208
|
Post by vampmogs on Aug 10, 2008 5:24:40 GMT -5
I'm not even sure where you are getting this. If it was in the book I must've missed it. I read it once and that was enough. Plenty...the nausea lasted a week. Warren says that her downfall is that she's so strong. That the more she tries to become powerful, the more she's bound on the table. It was using her own power to keep her there. Ah? That's not what happened. Who do you think came off looking better in that arc? Faith or Buffy, because if anything I'd say Faith came off looking far better. And Buffy didn't kick her butt, Faith had the advantage over her and chose to let her go out of the water. Nor did Faith fall to temptation, she made it her mission to try and rehabilitate Gigi the same way Angel did for her. TOYL the overview to date: Willow is hurt, We have no idea why Willow went to Vasuki. How do you know it is because she was hurt?
|
|
|
Post by magicegidius on Aug 10, 2008 5:36:05 GMT -5
I totally agree with vampmogs... It is not Faith, but Buffy who looks bad in NFFY-arc... Has everybody else noticed the writers are creating a bad feeling about Buffy and her Slayers??? I mean: - she looks bad in #5, where a decoy dies in a sentimental way - she looks bad because she's robbing banks - she looks bad because she did not bond with her sister. - slayers are going rogue I still vote for Buffy=Big Bad! Plz... let me be right
|
|
Patches
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 19
|
Post by Patches on Aug 10, 2008 9:32:14 GMT -5
That Buffy is a villain of the story has been obvious to me since the end of Long Way Home 4. Warren, Amy, vamps, Twilight... this is just a smokescreen. Especially Twilight. This guy is Mr.Trick of S8, cool, funny, wears cool clothes, does the Slayerfest thing, but he is a fake villain. Here is the picture of the real one. That's not a Good Guy. And I am very glad that Joss has guts to tell this story, it would never would have been allowed to fly on TV. Not for the main character. Heck, the mighty Angelus, Scourge of Europe, most evil vampire ever, was not allowed to kill anyone in Ats (which was supposed to be dark series). This is very logical character development for Buffy character. Very dangerous. Very close to the "character assassination". This is Buffy's final challenge and final lesson. I just hope Joss will be able redeem her later (the way how he did that at the end of season 7 did not worked for me). And if you need further proof that Buffy is a bad guy just look at the banner: she has exactly same look in her eyes as frickin' Dracula. Heck, she works with frickin Dracula!
|
|
angelmonster
Potential Slayer
Tuesday's Son[Mo0:6]
Posts: 107
|
Post by angelmonster on Aug 10, 2008 10:38:26 GMT -5
Oi you guys are really dissecting this story too much. No offense or anything but take a step back and think about things before putting too much of your own spin on it.
I have to agree that Buffy is looking less and less moral with each new thing we learn about her and how she is leading all of her people right now. Still i don't blame her. She never wanted to be a Slayer and it took her time to accept that. Now she doesn't want to be this leader of a Slayer army so it will take time for her to become a great leader. Or, possibly she was never meant to lead all of these Slayers int he first place. Possibly she was meant to awaken them and thats it, maybe she needs to go off on her own now and become the person she was always meant to become. All of this pressure is really getting to her as you can tell in this comic and I bet a melting point is coming up soon, possibly when she runs into future evil Willow.
With Willow being in the future I hope Twilight is not Xander. If it is then anything Buffy has done(not caring about stealing, her attitude with Dawn, etc etc)really makes her look like the most moral good guy in this series. We look down on her for the things she is doing right now but look at Willow, she tried to end the world, she brought two people back from the dead(which she should have learned with Buffy that it could be puling Kennedy out of heaven), and now she is a couple centuries old being all chummy with the current big bad in the Fray storyline. All in all this leads me to forgive Buffy for her mistakes because at least it isn't leading to people's deaths or the possible end of the world. Not intentionally at least.
What's interesting is Willow saying "Vampires gain strength from each other. Slayers ultimately, don't." which means Buffy is at her weakest right now because of there being so many Slayers. I think this refers to the fact that when Faith shows up she is kind of Buffy's Yang. She is the total opposite of what Buffy is suppose to be, she is what Buffy could be if she totally let go of her morals. Vampires work well together because they have no soul while Slayers are vampires with a soul. They have to constantly fight their morals to not take that final leap and become a "human vampire"(killing people because they can, beating people and ruling them because they have the strength, etc etc).
In the end I still believe in Buffy even through all of her faults. Inf act because they are showing more faults in her I am enjoying her character more and more with each comic. There is so much placed upon her that if she is the big bad this season or if she makes a fatal mistake that threatens to end the world I blame everyone else for putting it on her shoulders as much as I blame her.
|
|