Patches
Innocent Bystander
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Posts: 19
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Post by Patches on Aug 10, 2008 12:29:35 GMT -5
All in all this leads me to forgive Buffy for her mistakes because at least it isn't leading to people's deaths or the possible end of the world. Not intentionally at least. Not yet. It will though. As I said it is a natural character development for her. And yes, she will start killing people. And she will probably start to de-power rogue slayers using the Scythe trick. Which is even worse then killing. You are willing to forgive her because you are viewing her through "Buffy is a Hero" goggles, and tend to cut her a bit of slack because of it. Besides she is cute and funny and loves her friends. However S8 is Joss writing. Joss does not believe that ends justify the means. (after season 7 I was a bit worried that this is no longer true, but "Dr.Horrible" proved that me and Joss are still on the same page). Joss enjoy shaking the fandom and Joss enjoys running his characters through gauntlet. Also funny and sympathetic villain is still a villain. And still has to pay for her crimes. She already paid for the crime of abusing the English language. BTW, it may appear like I am bashing Buffy. I certainly don't - she is one of my favorite characters. But I have been waiting Dark Buffy story from Joss for years and I am very glad that he finally goes there.
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Post by wenxina on Aug 10, 2008 12:39:13 GMT -5
[ I'm not even sure where you are getting this. If it was in the book I must've missed it. I read it once and that was enough. Plenty...the nausea lasted a week. Honesty, a number of people here have been kicking around how obscenely powerful Willow is. We're talking about raw consistency. Check this. Last time I saw her working under a counter spell it went a little like this: I'm cutting out the counter spell, because it's irrelevant. The counter spell was not performed on Willow, it was meant to neutralize any magical attempt to kill the nerds. Hence the superpowering of self so that she could just physically pound them into a very dead pulp. And you should reread that scene with Willow tied down. She is bound to the table by magic, and the point is that the magic that binds her works in direct proportion to her strength. And while I'm not saying that you're not reading the series right, you may want to reread the entire thing, possibly the complete arcs together, and see if it changes y some of your current feelings about it. Not very interested in dissecting your argument, but I am urging to take your own advice since you felt the need to dispense it. I think that most of the arguments made against your points have been well thought out, considering the detail and extent to which they prove contrary to your views. I'm not saying that they're right, just that they are thought out. And since I'm biased to agree with them (considering that I've made some of them myself), I'd say that your views are very general (by your admission), and I think your generalizations are off the mark, nuances not withstanding. Considering your dislike for the books, and going by the fact that you've only read the opening arc once, I'll venture a guess and say that you've not reread any of the later books either, or at least not recently. Find specifics to support your arguments, and then we can have a real discussion about the merits/dismerits of S8. That said, I respect your right to them, so let's just agree to not be condescending to each other.
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D'Hoffryn
Potential Slayer
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Posts: 127
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Post by D'Hoffryn on Aug 10, 2008 12:44:15 GMT -5
I CAN'T BELIEVE I'M SO SLOW!!! thanks Emmie and King, i've seen the S6 finale so many times but never thought saga Vasuki was the snake woman statue on the church, it all starts to make sense and love the theories.
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angelmonster
Potential Slayer
Tuesday's Son[Mo0:6]
Posts: 107
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Post by angelmonster on Aug 10, 2008 13:28:56 GMT -5
All in all this leads me to forgive Buffy for her mistakes because at least it isn't leading to people's deaths or the possible end of the world. Not intentionally at least. Not yet. It will though. As I said it is a natural character development for her. And yes, she will start killing people. And she will probably start to de-power rogue slayers using the Scythe trick. Which is even worse then killing. You are willing to forgive her because you are viewing her through "Buffy is a Hero" goggles, and tend to cut her a bit of slack because of it. Besides she is cute and funny and loves her friends. However S8 is Joss writing. Joss does not believe that ends justify the means. (after season 7 I was a bit worried that this is no longer true, but "Dr.Horrible" proved that me and Joss are still on the same page). Joss enjoy shaking the fandom and Joss enjoys running his characters through gauntlet. Also funny and sympathetic villain is still a villain. And still has to pay for her crimes. She already paid for the crime of abusing the English language. BTW, it may appear like I am bashing Buffy. I certainly don't - she is one of my favorite characters. But I have been waiting Dark Buffy story from Joss for years and I am very glad that he finally goes there. Your theory is sound but still, I am not looking at Buffy as a hero but as a person. I am judging all of the characters the same way. Willow has tried to destroy the world and shown that she still does not have 100% control over her magics but she was forgiven by most of us. Xander summoned a demon that has people dancing to their deaths but no one really scolded him at all for it. Anya killed and maimed people for thousand sof years but do one good dead and its a ok to do all she did. Faith killed a man and didn't serve all fo the time she was suppose to serve. People just seem to be too harsh on Buffy for the things she has done but the rest of the characters are ok if they screw up once in a while that leads to someones death. As long as you aren't Buffy you are forgiven for whatever you do. I CAN'T BELIEVE I'M SO SLOW!!! thanks Emmie and King, i've seen the S6 finale so many times but never thought saga Vasuki was the snake woman statue on the church, it all starts to make sense and love the theories. The name of the demon on the alter/church was Prospexa, not Saga Vasuki. Maybe they are related somehow but that was not Vasuki on the statue. Plus ok, maybe Willow is getting help from an eivl demon but to go to the very demon you wanted to summon to destroy the world? Then Willow is a lot more evil then I thought she was.
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Patches
Innocent Bystander
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Posts: 19
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Post by Patches on Aug 10, 2008 14:19:08 GMT -5
Your theory is sound but still, I am not looking at Buffy as a hero but as a person. I am judging all of the characters the same way. Willow has tried to destroy the world and shown that she still does not have 100% control over her magics but she was forgiven by most of us. Xander summoned a demon that has people dancing to their deaths but no one really scolded him at all for it. Anya killed and maimed people for thousand sof years but do one good dead and its a ok to do all she did. Faith killed a man and didn't serve all fo the time she was suppose to serve. People just seem to be too harsh on Buffy for the things she has done but the rest of the characters are ok if they screw up once in a while that leads to someones death. As long as you aren't Buffy you are forgiven for whatever you do. I agree, Buffy is a very good character because she is a complex character, with some flaws and lots of good qualities. Let's go through your list step-by-step. 1. Willow and Dark Side of the Force. Paid her dues and paid them dearly. Not only she spend the whole season 7 being wallflower. She also lost Tara, and yes, I believe that Tara's life was the price for resurrecting Buffy. Laws of universe: magic has price. Could be Willow's life, but to quote D'Hoffryn "Never go for the kill, when you can go for the pain". (by the way, Smallville series did something similar). More of it, her friends don't trust Willow anymore. 2. Xander and his Sweet deal. Played for laughs. Scoobies and writers tend to cut a slack for the black humor. Random death of nameless people by dancing is funny. 3. Anya and her very long reign of terror. Comic relief character. See above. Besides there is "Selfless". 4. Faith and her very short reign of terror compared to the character above. Still doing her time. Just not in prison. Performing the civic duty. If she would consider herself redeemed she would have taken the way out when Giles offered it to her at the end of NFFY. She certainly does not slay for jollies anymore. 5. Buffy She is a protagonist of the story. A hero. Leader. She should be judged more harshly for her errors. And she should feel guilty when she commits them (she often doesn't). Anyway, whatever misdeeds she has committed till now (including her Arsene Lupin impersonation), it is just a prelude. The fun will start in, I believe, issue 21, after the flashback episode in issue 20. This will give Joss some time till the end of the season to do enough damage.
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Post by KingofCretins on Aug 10, 2008 14:49:48 GMT -5
Dhoffryn, I don't think Emmie or I meant to suggest that Proserpexa and Vasuki were one and the same, just that Willow's attempt to destroy the world might have drawn Vasuki's attention.
We know from Kumiko that Willow has been watched for some time, and it stands to reason that if Vasuki's pupil has been watching, so has Vasuki herself. "Grave" is just an example of a time when Willow might have drawn attention to herself.
One could argue that something was tracking Willow as far back as "Becoming, Part II" -- certainly, something jumped in and helped her finish the spell to restore Angel. No way to say or really speculate that that might have been Vasuki, but at some point prior to Season 8, so at least "Chosen" or further back, Vasuki has had her eye on Willow.
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D'Hoffryn
Potential Slayer
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Posts: 127
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Post by D'Hoffryn on Aug 10, 2008 15:08:17 GMT -5
thanks for the recap, I really like the idea of willow being watched and helped with the curse and chosen spell.
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rufio
Novice Witch
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Post by rufio on Aug 10, 2008 17:41:04 GMT -5
That Buffy is a villain of the story has been obvious to me since the end of Long Way Home 4. Warren, Amy, vamps, Twilight... this is just a smokescreen. Especially Twilight. This guy is Mr.Trick of S8, cool, funny, wears cool clothes, does the Slayerfest thing, but he is a fake villain. Here is the picture of the real one. That's not a Good Guy. And I am very glad that Joss has guts to tell this story, it would never would have been allowed to fly on TV. Not for the main character. Heck, the mighty Angelus, Scourge of Europe, most evil vampire ever, was not allowed to kill anyone in Ats (which was supposed to be dark series). This is very logical character development for Buffy character. Very dangerous. Very close to the "character assassination". This is Buffy's final challenge and final lesson. I just hope Joss will be able redeem her later (the way how he did that at the end of season 7 did not worked for me). And if you need further proof that Buffy is a bad guy just look at the banner: she has exactly same look in her eyes as frickin' Dracula. Heck, she works with frickin Dracula! personally I think you are WAY off. Buffy- the bad guy?!? c'mon! Buffy looks that way in that picture because she's dealing with general Voll!! Working with Dracula was circumstantial. He helped Buffy retrieve the scythe and he was there because of Xander more than Buffy. Twilight is not funny or cool. I really don't think he is a fake villain. How does that even hold up? I'm sorry I'm picking everything you said apart, but it all kind of bothered me lol.
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brandonr
Potential Slayer
"That's mine." "Well you're about to get it back."[Mo0:0]
Posts: 168
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Post by brandonr on Aug 10, 2008 18:13:57 GMT -5
Your theory is sound but still, I am not looking at Buffy as a hero but as a person. I am judging all of the characters the same way. Willow has tried to destroy the world and shown that she still does not have 100% control over her magics but she was forgiven by most of us. Xander summoned a demon that has people dancing to their deaths but no one really scolded him at all for it. Anya killed and maimed people for thousand sof years but do one good dead and its a ok to do all she did. Faith killed a man and didn't serve all fo the time she was suppose to serve. People just seem to be too harsh on Buffy for the things she has done but the rest of the characters are ok if they screw up once in a while that leads to someones death. As long as you aren't Buffy you are forgiven for whatever you do. There is definite justification for people judging Buffy more harshly than her friends who have committed evil deeds: Buffy is a hero, therefore we expect more out of her, and we expect that she will always make the correct choice in any given situation. This does not mean that isn't unfair of the audience to judge Buffy in that manor, but it is an unfortunate part of the world. Not to mention the fact that Joss has written Buffy herself, and those surrounding her, so that the audience will naturally expect more out of Buffy than anyone else because even Buffy's friends expect more out of her than they do of themselves (in the moral area anyway). This is why they always turn to her for information, for ideas. This is why at the end of "Chosen", everyone asked "What are we gonna do now Buffy?" (Of course, its also because they're so used to taking direction from her). The simple fact is that Buffy will always be judged more harshly than others. Buffy could kill a fly and Willow could kill a human (which she did) and everyone will come down harder on Buffy.
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angelmonster
Potential Slayer
Tuesday's Son[Mo0:6]
Posts: 107
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Post by angelmonster on Aug 10, 2008 21:40:09 GMT -5
There is definite justification for people judging Buffy more harshly than her friends who have committed evil deeds: Buffy is a hero, therefore we expect more out of her, and we expect that she will always make the correct choice in any given situation. This does not mean that isn't unfair of the audience to judge Buffy in that manor, but it is an unfortunate part of the world. Not to mention the fact that Joss has written Buffy herself, and those surrounding her, so that the audience will naturally expect more out of Buffy than anyone else because even Buffy's friends expect more out of her than they do of themselves (in the moral area anyway). This is why they always turn to her for information, for ideas. This is why at the end of "Chosen", everyone asked "What are we gonna do now Buffy?" (Of course, its also because they're so used to taking direction from her). The simple fact is that Buffy will always be judged more harshly than others. Buffy could kill a fly and Willow could kill a human (which she did) and everyone will come down harder on Buffy.[/quote]See I guess I just don't think that way. The Slayer is meant to be a perfect hero in all the senses but Buffy time and time again has broken down that stereotype with loving a vampire, keeping a social life, bringing friends and family intot he battle etc etc. I think the whole point of who Buffy is as the slayer is that it breaks the hero stereotype. Why would you think she is a hero? She never wanted this and really still to this day doesn't accept what she should be as a Slayer according to what a Slayer should be. She worked at a fast food restaurant. She still has friends and gets them involved. Hell, when someone dies around a hero they should keep composed but look at "The Body". She was anything but composed. In my eyes what Buffy has done is nothing compared to what others have done. True she shouldn't be doing some of it, mainly becoming a thief, but she is human. I can forgive her for everything she has done because she has saved the world, died in order to protect it and died so her sister, who had no life really before a few years ago in Buffy time, could live. Time and time again she has proven herself to her friends and to herself but people still label her a semi-bad person. In the end of the series or even this season I really want to see Buffy int he spotlight again. I know it isn't going to happen, she will be torn down more and more and more then likely somenoe else will become the hero. I would just like to see the Buffy at the end of the first season again where she saves the day. After all ALL of the bad guys only cared about her because they saw the light in her that a lot of her fans can't see. There is a reason that she has defeated everything that has come in her way because she knows her own strength and believes in her friends to be at her side when she needs them. If that isn't the mark of someone who is capable of being a hero and if that isn't enough of an atonement for stealing and ignoring Dawn(which let's face it, you would ignore her too)then I don't really know what is
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brandonr
Potential Slayer
"That's mine." "Well you're about to get it back."[Mo0:0]
Posts: 168
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Post by brandonr on Aug 10, 2008 21:50:47 GMT -5
Angelmonster, what you say is true, Buffy saving the world does give her some humongo points in the Good column, but it still doesn't measure up to people viewing her as bad and judging her because of the reasons I listed in my previous post.
Buffy saving the world is the norm for her, so when the world needs saving, people look to her and expect her to do it. There's that word again--expect. People have expectations of her because she is the Slayer. That would alone, Slayer, carries with it a sense of moral goodness, a duty that outshines all others: The Slayer is expected to be good and moral and make the tough decisions (which, I'll admit, may mean that some people get hurt for the greater good--just another thing to be judged about), and save the world.
Because saving the world is so the norm for Buffy in her world, everyone often forgets that she has so many good karmic points that her scale tipped way over and off the face of this flat earth long ago, and since then she has done the same to countless other scales. But none of that matters. What matters is that Buffy made some bad choices recently, that she robbed a bank (which, again, admitting that is pretty questionable for anyone, and especially Buffy) and is going to do bad things in the future I'm sure, but she'll still be judged against that double standard.
Buffy is the Slayer, therefore Buffy must make all good decisions all the time and save the world whenever it is needed.
The most interesting thing about this argument, however, is that just being the Slayer isn't all that gives her the double standard of being judged despite all she's done. Her personality also contributes to that. Just because Kennedy, Rona, Vi, Satsu, Rowena, Renee, etc etc, are all Slayers, does that mean we instantly expect them to make the right decisions and never do anything off the cuff and out of the norm, aka BAD?
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Post by ilovewillow on Aug 11, 2008 6:24:57 GMT -5
My comic arrived today. I was shocked that it was Dark Willow at the end. Had no idea who Erin was, thanks to the poster who made it clear that she looks almost identical to Buffy (I completely missed that). I think I might find this arc hard to follow since I haven't read Fray. Sorry to say, but I didn't like Fray's language at all, I just thought it was silly. I do agree that DW does seem sad and a tad regretful in this issue so maybe she isn't a full blown villain? I've read almost all of the posts in this thread and the complex theories have been really interesting, I wouldn't be surprised if they came true. I loved Xander and Dawn in this issue and I'm glad most of the slayers got out.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Aug 11, 2008 8:29:19 GMT -5
Okay, I've just read page 11-14 in this thread, to be able to write a better post, but I'm not reading anymore. Here it goes. Oh my God. It's Willow. But it's too obvious. I really thought it would be a big surprise (And it would have been if not a user here had used one of the forbidden comic-pics for a banner, thanks). I'm really surprised that it would be Willow, since I didn't expect Joss to allow such a big spoiler as cover 19 if it actually was Willow. Damn. This line is confusing me: ”In the dream, you hurt me. Not just fighting --- You're connected to someone I love.” Harth says that, which might mean that Willow is connected to someone Buffy love. Will Willow hurt Xander, Dawn or Giles? I'm putting that in THE CLUES thread. It might be me misreading the line, but it's possible. Or Harth means that Willow is connected to Buffy who is connected to Fray, who Harth loves. And here I thought the red-head was Rowena. Huh. Rowena means Red One. Now when I re-read issue one, I see Buffy call the red-head Leah. And all of you people who said; "Dawn' a giant, Dawn's a centaur, how lame” I don't get you. She's funnier and braver than ever. The comedy between her and Xander is hialrious. I'm not for comics, but isn't it true that often in cross-overs, it's the crossovie (yep, a new word) that takes over the story? I'm very glad that Buffy doesn't come to Fray's time and take over the show by being a millions time cooler. I like that she can't jump cars and hehe polka-dots. Something that is quite obvious in this issue is that Buffy expected every future potential to be called as well. So apparently, Buffy expected Willow's scythe spell to work in that way. That's interesting, I hope we will find out more aboute the slayer-spell. I wonder what Future-Willow will do to Buffy. ”They say that the madwoman's power reached through the ages and changed her.” Does Willow reveal a horrible truth, curse Buffy or what? Maybe she wants to change Buffy so that Buffy goes back and changes the future, save Kennedy, Xander whatever and make sure that magic isn't ended? Maybe she is the one to make sure that Buffy will end magic, by getting her bitter and depressed. Either way, the future Willow wants to make sure that things happen the way she wants them. I guess she was destined too. "What happens in your time will cause your time to come..." implies that what happens in the future, does not stay in the future, and that's the way future-Will wants it. Another thing. Willow waited until a new slayer was chosen. That got to mean somthing. And I bet she was in the shadow the whole time Harth got turned and Melaka fought Harth. I think she needs both of them, perhaps to kill the slayerline for good. Is Future-Willow good or not? I think she's gray. She doesn't seem to care that Harth is hurting/turning people, but I don't think she has a bloodlust. The magic has made her veiny and dark-haired, and the bitterness has made her... very gloomy. I doubt there's much good left in her. Just hate and some lingering affection. Or perhaps she's just playing Harth and wants Buffy to help Buffy. I hope so, I hope she has survived this long to set things right. Btw, why is people calling Willow Dark Willow? I get that it makes things easier to refer to Grave-Willow or some scenes-in-season-7-Willow, but some posts(okay, one) made it seem as if Dark Willow is a seperate enity from ordinary-Willow. Willow with dark hair and viens is just upset Willow, not necassary a different person. I wonder why the castle didn't just blow up. Why send non-efficent snake-things? Is Twillight trying to help future Willow by making sure that Xander and the slayers and the witches can't help present-Willow? Perhaps Twilight's wants to scare the slayers and turn them against Buffy? Or did Warren & Twilight want to kill the slayers, but they're just too stupid? Emmie made a good point; So I've been thinking that Twilight's greater scheme that was served by this attack was simply making Buffy move her headquarters out of the Scotland castle. In my imagination, Twilight ordered Warren to terrorize the slayers' castle so they'd move. Terrorize, but not annihilate. I'm basing this assumption on the nature of Warren's attack which is reminiscent of how he played with Buffy in 'Life Serial'. When Warren wants to play with you he makes elaborate schemes (mystical warrior cobras, anyone?), but when he wants you dead he uses a gun (Seeing Red). So Twilight's purpose in served in the attack was to make the Scotland castle seem easily penetrated, forcing Buffy to move her headquarters. Like putting the king in check on a chessboard. Twilight is putting Buffy on the run, maneuvering her into position. But for what? The end of the age of magic? After the fake-out we got this issue with Dru-Willow, I'm starting to wonder if that really is his true goal. Twilight probably wants to make sure that Buffy is unstable. And Karl Moline is a genius. I love how he captures expressions. I mean, Willow's nose is HUGE, but that's acceptable, considering how he captures Buffy's expressions. And after this arc, I hope that the scoobies learn that SHARING is a key word. Faith & Giles needs to tell Buffy and the others everything about Gigi and Roden, and they need to study that Roden-book together, and Willow needs to spill the beans about Saga, no matter how humiliating it is. They all need to realize that ”strength in numers” still applies. I get that Willow wants her seperate life, but in a way, that's selfish. They all need to reconnect. Of course, that will probably not happen. They will probably not get together friendwise until the battle at the end of the season. And after that, they will probably still be a bit cold around each other. Also Giles and Buffy needs to sit down and talk about the ”trying to kill Spike”-thing. And about the end of the age of magic. I don't think that's possible. The Old One's, Illyria's kind and others were once banned from this dimension, and so happened in Fray, but I wonder; How can you ban something like magic? It exists everywhere, doesn't it? I see how you can ban some demons, slayers, some magic, spirits etc etc, but I believe that it can never be totally banned, because magic is in everything. The only way to ban magic and demonic life completely would be to go with the First's agenda, eternal darkness, no life at all. I wonder if that's what Twillight really wants. Btw, after looking at the last page again, I think the chick on the last page looks like Dawn. I compared Moline's Dawn and Willow and yeah it's Dawn. I hope it was Dawn, but then I read Scott's answer to a letter and nope, it's Willow. If Buffy being the princess is meant to remind us of 8.10, and the message in 8.10 meant to provide a clue as to how to save the day, and saving the day may well involve keeping Willow from going insane/evil, then the best odds for a prince are Xander and Oz, both of whom are or will be around, and are the two men Willow cares about most. Actually, if Robin's "He follows you" comment was directed at Willow, you could add Harth to that count, since he is following her, in the future that is. And so, if you want to play time travel roulette again, all you have to do is save Harth from being turned into a lurk, to prevent, or at least kinda circumvent the great vamp uprising being planned. Doesn't Robin say; ”It follows you” not ”he”?
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Patches
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 19
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Post by Patches on Aug 11, 2008 8:44:37 GMT -5
personally I think you are WAY off. Buffy- the bad guy?!? c'mon! Buffy looks that way in that picture because she's dealing with general Voll!! Working with Dracula was circumstantial. He helped Buffy retrieve the scythe and he was there because of Xander more than Buffy. Twilight is not funny or cool. I really don't think he is a fake villain. How does that even hold up? I'm sorry I'm picking everything you said apart, but it all kind of bothered me lol. It's no problem, really. I could be totally wrong. Joss tend to surprise me with his twists every now and then: that's the reason that I enjoy his writing so much. For example that Dr.Horrible trick - totally blindsided me. So it is quite possible that I over-analyze this. After all this is just a comic book. Everything could instead be terribly simple really. The good guys after all are always stalwart and true, the bad guys - easily distinguished by their pointy horns or black hats, and, well, heroes always defeat them and save the day. No one ever dies, and everybody lives happily ever after. So I will not say how Joss will write the rest of the season. Instead I will say what I would have done with it if I would have actually complete control (without any interference) how story should develop. So the story could be about how Buffy and her friends finally resolved their differences, forgave each other for all transgressions and grew closer. However considering that BTVS never was comfort writing, and considering that this is season 8, which actually comes after seasons 6 and 7, this means that we have not to iron the conflict out, but to escalate it. In S6 Buffy had fallen, but at the end she was able to pick herself up, learned her lesson and went-on. In S7 she had fallen harder, but she picked herself up again. Despite needing some comfort from Spike to give her strength her standing up was mostly her doing. She learned her lesson and went-on. Which brings us to the season 8. Now she has to fall again and this time she should fall so hard that she would not be able to stand up again on her own. She should fall to the point where her only hope for salvation would be that someone else will save her. To do this she has to be absolutely broken. All her strengths have to be turned into her weaknesses. Same how it was done with Willow, who was destroyed by her trust for knowledge and desire to become stronger. So let's logic how the situation will develop after Buffy returns the future: 1. Buffy learns that Willow at some point in the future will turn dark. 2. In "Selfless" Buffy's shown that she is considering herself the law and the final authority. She has shown that she is able to kill, scratch that, execute her friends if she determines that the situation demands it. 3. Buffy can't fight Dark Willow. They are on totally different power levels. Buffy strength is not raw power, her strengths are determination, persistence and idealism. 4. Buffy can't fight even the normal Willow. Even if normal Willow is not willing to harm her, she could just teleport or fly away. 5. The only way to off Willow is for Buffy to lure her into the trap, using that Willow loves her and trusts her, than betray her. What would I accomplish with this, if I would be Joss: 1) this is a solution to "Willow is overpowered" problem. At this point Willow is a Superman in a Batman's story. For everything what Batman could do you have to explain why Superman did not do it before and better. Even worse, Willow is a Superman without kryptonite. 2) this will turn Buffy dark. She is already quite dark, but most of fandom don't see it and tend to excuse her dark deeds. 3) this is excellent drama material. 4) Joss loves Willow. Because of this, fans assume that she has a plot protection. For Buffy to kill Willow... Let's just say that no one will see it coming. So, that's what I would have done if I would be in Joss's shoes. Of cause, Joss would never do that. P.S. Twilight is funny. He is hilariously over the top comic book villain. He has a comic book villain costume. And the special villainy distorted font. And a scratchy neck.
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balesthebloody
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Angel's gettin' some! Good on you mate!"[Mo0:0]
Posts: 733
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Post by balesthebloody on Aug 11, 2008 10:41:11 GMT -5
This was a good issue, but it had some major flaws, IMO.
I liked how this issue started from Fray' point of view. Worked well with the first issue. I was very disappointed to see Dark Willow back. I was so hoping for Dru, but if the Willow story is good, I will be ok. I didn't much care for Harth in "Fray" but I really liked him in this issue.
This arc is looking like it might be a good one. I do hope so, Joss' stuff has been the weakest of Season 8 so far. I can't wait to see what happens with Dark Willow!
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iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:10]
Posts: 684
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Post by iloveromy on Aug 11, 2008 10:48:48 GMT -5
I don't understand how Willow knew that Buffy was sent into the future and would meet the Future Slayer. How does she know anything about the future slayer... and how does she know there is only one?
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Post by wenxina on Aug 11, 2008 11:15:56 GMT -5
She interrogated the demon thing; that was the only reason it was kept alive in a containment field. Granted, it's very convenient and all, and that her lack of surprise about learning that there's only one Slayer is well, surprising, it's not improbable.
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iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:10]
Posts: 684
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Post by iloveromy on Aug 11, 2008 12:20:12 GMT -5
She interrogated the demon thing; that was the only reason it was kept alive in a containment field. Granted, it's very convenient and all, and that her lack of surprise about learning that there's only one Slayer is well, surprising, it's not improbable. I thought she kept it alive because it has to be sent back to replace Buffy in the future. Isn't that the way it was in Get It Done?
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Aug 11, 2008 12:34:19 GMT -5
She interrogated the demon thing; that was the only reason it was kept alive in a containment field. Granted, it's very convenient and all, and that her lack of surprise about learning that there's only one Slayer is well, surprising, it's not improbable. I thought she kept it alive because it has to be sent back to replace Buffy in the future. Isn't that the way it was in Get It Done? i think you're both right. it was keept alive to trade with and for info.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Aug 11, 2008 13:02:17 GMT -5
Sorry to say, but I didn't like Fray's language at all, I just thought it was silly. I found it distracting, too, and I have read "Fray". The slang wasn't used anywhere near this much in the original--she mostly talked like us, with just a new adjective here or there ("toy" for "lame", "rocketship" for "cool"). This reminds me of the "Dark Tower" series where, after a 6-year break between books 4 and 5, Stephen King came back to it with a whole new batch of slang for the characters in the final 3 books that they hadn't used at all in the original 4. It was annoying there, and it's just as annoying here. I think the reason for it, tho, is just to make Buffy feel even more out-of-place, and make it just a little bit tougher for her to understand what's going on... This line is confusing me: ”In the dream, you hurt me. Not just fighting --- You're connected to someone I love.” Harth says that, which might mean that Willow is connected to someone Buffy love. Will Willow hurt Xander, Dawn or Giles? I'm putting that in THE CLUES thread. It might be me misreading the line, but it's possible. Or Harth means that Willow is connected to Buffy who is connected to Fray, who Harth loves. I think the simplest explanation of that is that he means he remembers fighting Willow in S6 (Buffy's memories), and the "someone he loves" is Buffy herself, referring to the fact that Willow was Buffy's best friend. In "Fray", the first time he confronts Mel and is explaining about how he got the heritage portion of the Slayer package, he mentions the dreams, and the girl. "She was different every time, but the same. She was me. She wasn't me. I loved her. I killed her." It's written the way it is in this issue to be cryptic, and make you think he's talking about fighting Drusilla, with her being connected to someone Buffy loves (Spike), but I think it's simply talking about Willow and her previous fight with Buffy (S6), and the fact that Harth feels love for all the previous slayers in his dreams. If he were talking about a future Buffy/Willow fight, then that would indicate knowledge on his part of what's going to happen, probably in the next two issues, and yet he seems completely in the dark about what Willow has planned, so that seems to argue against that. When it comes to what Harth knows about Buffy, I'm guessing he remembers a lot of what's happened in her life up to now (mid-S8), but probably not much beyond that. The whole "always in motion is the future" idea (to quote a wise little alien). Harth can't really remember anything after that simply because it hasn't happened to her yet, and she can still change it. I thought she kept it alive because it has to be sent back to replace Buffy in the future. Isn't that the way it was in Get It Done? i think you're both right. it was keept alive to trade with and for info. Well, she kept it to trade it back for Buffy, but since Spike killed the one in "Get It Done" before sending it back thru the portal, it probably wasn't necessary to keep this one alive. I think the 'alive' bit was strictly for interrogation purposes.
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