ded1
Rogue Demon Hunter
The Zombie Lord
BRAINS!!![Mo0:8]
Posts: 468
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Post by ded1 on Dec 9, 2008 18:48:03 GMT -5
Got my issue yesterday
So far,this was my least favorite arc of the series. The Xander & Dawn sub-plot,while amusing,was rather pointless. Riley's reveal with Twilight and finding out that he was the one to meet Buffy just brings more questions. How long has Buffy been dealing with Riley? Why would Buffy hide Riley's identity from Willow(and possibly Xander)? As for Buffy and Willow's role in this arc,I'm really hoping that later issues will clear up alot of questions that came to me after reading this arc(too many to type)
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Dec 10, 2008 22:51:12 GMT -5
On the thing about the invites, there's some evidence to indicate that the rules involved in that can change over the years, and has a lot to do with how a building is presently being used, and not so much what it was originally constructed for. When Angel goes to confront Holtz, he tells him that the motel he's staying in is "public accomodations--no invitation necessary", and is able to come right in. In it's days as a hotel, the Hyperion would surely have been the same way. Yet in present-day S3, Angel can't enter Fred's room. Because now that particular room is a private residence. The way the castle is being used is pretty darn similar to the way Angel, Inc., used the Hyperion, so it's been my impression that the rules regarding invites probably function the same way: vampires can enter the building, and the hallways and common rooms, but can't enter the individual bedrooms that the girls (and Xander) are living in. And it could also just be a goof. (Wouldn't be the first time...)
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angelmonster
Potential Slayer
Tuesday's Son[Mo0:6]
Posts: 107
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Post by angelmonster on Dec 11, 2008 14:44:14 GMT -5
My understanding of the invitation rule is that in only effects homes. I'm not talking about wha tyou percieve as a home every day but an enclosed home that someone has decided to live in. With entering the vampire can not pass th eherth, meaning the front/back door. So say you own a home with a yard and deck. The vampire can hang in the yard and even chill on the deck. Once it tries to get into the house it can not pass th eherth without permission, meaning any entrances that go within the area the front door leads is off limits.
That is how I always took the rule to entering a house. The only thing is that 1)A castle is different form a house. Yes a Lord/King/etc usually lived within them but also their doors were usually open to the public. 2) Buffy might not own it. Ake steals form banks, whats stopping her form taking this castle? 3)These vampires could turn into smoke and animals, who is to say whatever spell they were using to do that doesn't break the invitation rule?
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Malsad
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Attack Attack!
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 684
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Post by Malsad on Dec 11, 2008 15:02:35 GMT -5
good point if i remenber Drac didnt HAVE to ask but even if he did hes very kind and might of just ask to keep up aperinces
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Post by wenxina on Dec 11, 2008 19:34:00 GMT -5
Drac did have to ask. Joyce invited him in (scene not seen)... apparently he kinda seduced her, coz she said something about being "lonely". Dracula's kind of a creeper.
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deathisyourgift
Ensouled Vampire
to read makes our speaking English good!
Timothy Dalton should win an Oscar and beat Sean Connery over the head with it!!-Andrew[Mo0:37]
Posts: 1,166
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Post by deathisyourgift on Dec 12, 2008 14:19:05 GMT -5
This may have been discussed in this forum already, but I am honestly too lazy to go through the pages thusfar. Sorry if this bothers anyone So, I am a Riley lover. The character, his relationship with Buffy, the whole she-bang. But I must say, I am not very sure I appreciate his recently revealed involvement with Twilight. Granted, Riley's probably been through a lot with the gov't brainwashing, Buffy's mixed signals, and hunting demons in the rain forest, or whatever..but it just seems out of character for him to be in with the big bad. It's still not clear what he's doing or who Twilight is, but it better be good, because Riley has always been so light-side, even when he got vampire hussies to bite him, it was out of a need for a loving connection and yadda yadda Buffy isn't lovey-dovey cuz she's a Slayer and has to be all strong and closed off. I dunno, was anyone else irked by Riley's reveal? It just better play out just right... As for this current conversation about vampire's and building invites, I have to agree with darthrosenberg9 about the hotel and castle theories presented. The building itself is a public place, but the rooms/areas which belong specifically to certain people, are off-limits without an invite. That's my two cents..good discussion eveyone. HIGH FIVE!! ..that's kinda like a high five..but with a punch..and a vampire..yeah!!
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Post by wenxina on Dec 12, 2008 14:56:24 GMT -5
Hit up El Diablo Robotico if you want to discuss the Riley details... I know he's very much in agreement with your sentiments. Here's where I'm torn. I completely agree that Riley's always been too much of a cornfed farmboy to go dark (although paying vampires to nibble him was a weird twist, and while the reasoning was there... let's just say it sounded more like Riley felt like he needed to be a little more "monster"-y for Buffy, because of what Spike said to him). Skytte once brought up an interesting interpretation of Twilight's brand on his followers; that it conferred mind control. I think this was over in the #16 thread. While I read it more like Warren telling Twilight that he was his own man, and therefore wasn't one of Twilight's cronies (i.e. those who wore the mark), Skytte's interpretation may allow Riley to stay a white hat, and still do the bad deeds, because he isn't in control. HOWEVER, that kinda takes away a good chunk of Twilight's mystique... it removes the charismatic leader from the mix, and what we have are a bunch of drones just doing his bidding. Of course, he may have been charismatic enough to get them to brand themselves in the first place, but there's always force for that too. So... guess we'll see.
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angelmonster
Potential Slayer
Tuesday's Son[Mo0:6]
Posts: 107
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Post by angelmonster on Dec 12, 2008 15:32:16 GMT -5
Riley coming back to the fray and in Twilights band of cronies is just more evidence that Twilight could be Xander or, at the very least someone Buffy knows pretty well. Amy and Warren beign there could just be "look we're bringing them back!". Twilight using/lnowing who Riley is to Buffy means he knows Buffy pretty well. Warren and Amy would not know about Riley and if they did he wouldn't be someone who would be on their side.
I see there can only be two logical explanations and personally I don't like either one. 1) Magic is being use don him to control him. 2)A rogue Slayer(s) killed his wife(squee!)or as a result of the slayers coming into power something happened to his wife.
all well, I will be patient because we won't find out until near the end.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Dec 13, 2008 3:10:03 GMT -5
Hit up El Diablo Robotico if you want to discuss the Riley details... I know he's very much in agreement with your sentiments. LOL, yeah, true enough. The funny thing is, I'm not even really a Riley fan. Not in terms of him being one of my favorite characters, anyway (but I don't violently dislike him, either, like many fans seem to ). This development just--potentially--bothers me because it seems so out-of-character for him. The people who can't stand him won't like hearing this, but this guy was one of the only truly good, decent characters in the entire show--I'd argue even more so than Xander, who had his moments of extreme pettiness (altho he also had much more opportunity to show off his less-than-nobler side, since he was around so much longer than Riley). The most popular Riley theory (first for him being Twilight, and now for him being allied with Twilight) is that a rogue slayer killed his wife, and he's decided to go all payback-y on Buffy and her army of slayers over it. Just my personal interpretation of the character, but if that did happen to Sam, I don't see that being Riley's reaction at all. More likely he'd angrily and directly confront Buffy over it--not so much the spell to create all the slayers in the first place, but rather over not having more control over these 1800 super-powered women afterwards. Not doing any investigation on them and trying to discover which ones are the loose cannons who might decide to use their powers for no-good (Willow could then possibly un-do the spell on these girls on an individual, case-by-case basis, like Kumiko did to Aiko). But wanting to destroy the entire army? No, I don't buy it. He knows firsthand what a powerful force for good Buffy and her friends are, and since most people are inherently good, he'd know that once the few baddies are weeded out of it, her army of slayers could be an incredible benefit to mankind in protecting them against vampires, demons, and assorted apocalypses. Also, when has Riley ever shown an inclination toward vengeance? Even when Spike ratted on him to Buffy in S5, Riley didn't kill him, even tho, thanks to Spike's chip, it would've been very easy to do so. He just tried to scare him. The other popular theory that you hear people throw out there is that Riley broke up with Buffy because he couldn't deal with the fact that she was stronger than he was, so of course he'd have a major issue with a whole army of strong women. I think these people just didn't watch S5 closely enough. Riley and Buffy not working out had nothing to do with any inferiority issues on his part, and everything to do with her not being willing to open up to him all the way and commit to him the same way that he was committed to her. This is the first thing in S8 that I just really haven't liked. Right now, I'm hoping that Skytte's idea about Twilight's symbol having some sort of thrall over it's wearers is true, because otherwise, I don't see any way that Riley-turning-evil is anything but totally out-of-character fan-service to that large bloc that can't stand the guy. (And just as an addendum to that, you could argue that Willow was a similar character, pre-S6, in terms of showing no previous hint of a darkside or being prone to evil-ness, but the difference there is that we saw that transformation unfold gradually, step-by-step, before our very eyes. It's much more believable that way than needing to have it all explained after-the-fact, in one great big expositional chunk of a flashback. )
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deathisyourgift
Ensouled Vampire
to read makes our speaking English good!
Timothy Dalton should win an Oscar and beat Sean Connery over the head with it!!-Andrew[Mo0:37]
Posts: 1,166
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Post by deathisyourgift on Dec 14, 2008 16:00:14 GMT -5
I have to say, I want to high-five you, El Diablo Robotico, because I pretty much agree with everything you said about Riley. And this is also, the first thing about S8 that I am enough confused/mad about that I am hoping it plays out right. Warren was kinda stupid, didn't he die? Isn't the bullet still lodged in his heart from when Dark Willow tortured him with it? Wouldn't one die almost immediately after being flayed alive? With all these questions, I let it slide, knowing that Joss & co. would have something different in store for the character, for the plot. I have this trust in the writers because they've proved for 8+ years that their twists and turns are extremely well thought-out. But I really cannot see how this shift for Riley Finn will really work out at all. That theory about Sam being killed by a rogue slayer, while a potent shove towards revenge, would not be enough for Riley to go to Darth Twilight's side. I really really think that Riley's entire history goes against this in every way. He is the good-est of the goodies, and again I agree with El Diablo Robotico in that I think Riley is even more righteous than Xander--and Xander is my FAVORITE character of all time..so I can't stress how much this means haha--because Xander has been tainted by the darkness of being so close to the Slayer. By this I mean that, in Xander's interaction with Buffy and the other scoobies, he's seen ridiculously evil things happening around him. At times, the evil has even corrupted their group of good guys. Lots of times, this darkness came with great power, and maybe this changed Xander in some ways. Meanwhile, Riley has been exposed to darkness, but in a different light. While he was in cahoots with the Initiative, Riley witnessed some seriously messed up stuff, but it was justified as the means to the end of keeping safe the lives of humans/Americans. When the Initiative fell, Riley had established that he now understood that there was more to that darkness, but that he would not be a part of it in that way. Riley moved on to continue fighting demons, whereas Xander nearly married one. (If this isn't making sense I apologize.) Riley and Xander both accepted the darkness, but Xander holds it close to him, and Riley still fights it. This is why I think it is absurd for Riley to be in league with Twilight, and unless Twilight is Giles or someone that Riley would be able to trust in this fight, against the first woman Riley ever loved. Tangent--I just had a thought that contradicts my own feelings towards Riley..he would probably be OK with ending magic, though..idk I just really hope Joss & co. have a really goof plot lined up for him!
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Post by Emmie on Dec 14, 2008 17:05:25 GMT -5
This is the first thing in S8 that I just really haven't liked. Right now, I'm hoping that Skytte's idea about Twilight's symbol having some sort of thrall over it's wearers is true, because otherwise, I don't see any way that Riley-turning-evil is anything but totally out-of-character fan-service to that large bloc that can't stand the guy. I think that's *exactly* what's happening. For the people who can't stand the guy, they immediately accept that Riley is bad because the *want* him to be the villain. They've always hated him and this feeds some inner joy at him finally joining the ranks of the most hated. But it's a narrative trick because that's just way too simple. I think Riley is a double agent in this scenario. The Twilight symbol as mind control could also be an explanation but we've already seen Riley under mind control before in Primeval. Recall that he stabbed himself in the shoulder with a piece of glass to remove that device that Adam was controlling him with. I think Riley has been show to have an extremely strong willpower. So I'm betting it's more double agent-y than mindless drone.
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spurtyknowledge
Rogue Demon Hunter
I'm wired to the world.
"She told them that the only grace they could have was the grace they could imagine."[Mo0:25]
Posts: 411
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Post by spurtyknowledge on Dec 14, 2008 17:57:01 GMT -5
But it's a narrative trick because that's just way too simple. I think Riley is a double agent in this scenario. The Twilight symbol as mind control could also be an explanation but we've already seen Riley under mind control before in Primeval. Recall that he stabbed himself in the shoulder with a piece of glass to remove that device that Adam was controlling him with. I think Riley has been show to have an extremely strong willpower. So I'm betting it's more double agent-y than mindless drone. So do I, Emmie. My 'theory' is that the NY meet was set up for the double agent scenario - Buffy needed a military man to infiltrate Twilight's military resources and acquire intel. Maybe Riley did turn over to the other side though once he got to see exactly what Twilight intends to do. I've got to say, if I haven't before, the panels with Buffy slaying Future Willow were rather gruesome. Haunting, even. I can't wait to see how that future plays out (if it does).
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paige101
Innocent Bystander
"And I never liked you anyway, and you have stupid hair!"[Mo0:2]
Posts: 13
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Post by paige101 on Dec 14, 2008 18:43:43 GMT -5
Warren was kinda stupid, didn't he die? Isn't the bullet still lodged in his heart from when Dark Willow tortured him with it? Wouldn't one die almost immediately after being flayed alive? This was explained in Long Way Home #4. Warren tells Willow how he's still alive because of Amy's magic, she was watching Willow and in turn watching Warren and was there in the woods when Dark Willow flayed him and in the few seconds before he would have died from shock she created a magic "skin" on him. As for the bullet I'm not too sure on that but i guess Warren's existance now isn't the most logical so that kinda slipped by the way side lol I hope this was kinda helpful
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Post by wenxina on Dec 14, 2008 20:51:40 GMT -5
This was explained in Long Way Home #4. Warren tells Willow how he's still alive because of Amy's magic, she was watching Willow and in turn watching Warren and was there in the woods when Dark Willow flayed him and in the few seconds before he would have died from shock she created a magic "skin" on him. As for the bullet I'm not too sure on that but i guess Warren's existance now isn't the most logical so that kinda slipped by the way side lol I hope this was kinda helpful Except that Warren HAD to have died, since the First could use his visage in S7. Joss essentially explained that he had merely forgotten that teeny factoid. Warren did indeed die, though. So the little matter of the bullet, not that big a deal, since Amy had to magically revive the skinless freak.
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deathisyourgift
Ensouled Vampire
to read makes our speaking English good!
Timothy Dalton should win an Oscar and beat Sean Connery over the head with it!!-Andrew[Mo0:37]
Posts: 1,166
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Post by deathisyourgift on Dec 15, 2008 1:05:47 GMT -5
Warren was kinda stupid, didn't he die? Isn't the bullet still lodged in his heart from when Dark Willow tortured him with it? Wouldn't one die almost immediately after being flayed alive? This was explained in Long Way Home #4. Warren tells Willow how he's still alive because of Amy's magic, she was watching Willow and in turn watching Warren and was there in the woods when Dark Willow flayed him and in the few seconds before he would have died from shock she created a magic "skin" on him. As for the bullet I'm not too sure on that but i guess Warren's existance now isn't the most logical so that kinda slipped by the way side lol I hope this was kinda helpful Yeah I remember that, but it's one of those miraculous Joss-ex-machina moments that I don't really totally think should be true. My point was that Warren totally shouldn't be alive/brought back..but we trust Joss & Co.'s writing and vision overall, so we let that impossible stuff go to see what happens next.. Thanks though And when I say "we"..I mean "me" hahaha Except that Warren HAD to have died, since the First could use his visage in S7. Joss essentially explained that he had merely forgotten that teeny factoid. Warren did indeed die, though. So the little matter of the bullet, not that big a deal, since Amy had to magically revive the skinless freak. It could be argued that, if Warren only died for a second, like Buffy in "Prophecy Girl," then the First could appear as Warren and he could still be alive in Amy's love-shell-whatever..haha so messed up...hmmmm, how to clear the self-made awkwardness.. I just love that smiley!! "I got here early; I get to be cowboy-guy!!"
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Post by wenxina on Dec 15, 2008 10:27:26 GMT -5
It could be argued that, if Warren only died for a second, like Buffy in "Prophecy Girl," then the First could appear as Warren and he could still be alive in Amy's love-shell-whatever..haha so messed up...hmmmm, how to clear the self-made awkwardness.. I just love that smiley!! "I got here early; I get to be cowboy-guy!!" Agreed. That was the point that I was trying to make.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Dec 16, 2008 2:24:31 GMT -5
This is the first thing in S8 that I just really haven't liked. Right now, I'm hoping that Skytte's idea about Twilight's symbol having some sort of thrall over it's wearers is true, because otherwise, I don't see any way that Riley-turning-evil is anything but totally out-of-character fan-service to that large bloc that can't stand the guy. I think that's *exactly* what's happening. For the people who can't stand the guy, they immediately accept that Riley is bad because the *want* him to be the villain. They've always hated him and this feeds some inner joy at him finally joining the ranks of the most hated. But it's a narrative trick because that's just way too simple. I think Riley is a double agent in this scenario. The Twilight symbol as mind control could also be an explanation but we've already seen Riley under mind control before in Primeval. Recall that he stabbed himself in the shoulder with a piece of glass to remove that device that Adam was controlling him with. I think Riley has been show to have an extremely strong willpower. So I'm betting it's more double agent-y than mindless drone. Yeah, my immediate reaction was "A-ha! Double-agent!", too, but then when I remembered Skytte's idea about the symbol possibly having some sort of controlling power to it, that also seemed like a plausible explanation worth considering in Riley's case, as well. But if it's not either of those (or something along those lines), and he's really gone well and truly evil of his own free will, then I'm calling "foul!", and saying that Joss is going to need a pretty darn good explanation for it before I buy it. And if it's "A rogue slayer killed his wife and now he's all vengeance-y", then not only is that not nearly good enough, but I mean, come on: cliche much?
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Malsad
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Attack Attack!
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 684
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Post by Malsad on Dec 17, 2008 11:39:07 GMT -5
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Post by ilovewillow on Dec 17, 2008 16:04:05 GMT -5
So the first layer has been removed, and seemingly, we now know who the mole is. But that's almost a minor discovery, given that Willow's death cheated us of the "long story". I totally agree! I was very curious to know what had happened to bring forth FDW in the first place. I doubt we'll ever find out. I only got this issue today since it was delayed and because I was broke and luckily my mom got it for me I thought it was brilliant. The way FDW dies was amazing and Riley being revealed at the betrayer or mole was such a shock. I actually exclaimed, ''omg it's Riley!''. I read it a second time and this time I noticed he's got that weird scar we saw from the Faith arc, that symbol with the little star and arc thing? That's on the book Gigi's wizard guy had? I'm sure that means something. I actually liked the little Xander and Dawn bit, made me laugh. Goodness knows when we're going to find out who Twilight is. I think it's a valid point that Warren wouldn't take orders from a woman. Just a thought imagine if Twilight was Angel or Spike?! That's me being silly Bring on #20
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Joe
Wise-cracking Sidekick
Obsessive Paranoid Boob
"Gypsies are filthy people! We shall speak of zem no more!" *spits* -Ilona Costa Bianchi[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,786
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Post by Joe on Dec 18, 2008 18:41:44 GMT -5
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