Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Feb 19, 2009 12:01:16 GMT -5
...this Andrew, while having geekfest moments that gel with his character spouts garbage like "What uuuup" which is almost frat boy-ish. It just threw me a little. Isn't that kind of the point? Andrew acting like a dumb frat boy to try and be cool? Btw, what do people make of Buffy's reaction "Yes. I suppose you did." Without SMG's delivery to go on, this could be interpreted as either genuine sympathy or an insult about Andrew being annoying (ie, "no wonder you were bullied"). I choose the former, since Buffy was being nice to him beforehand, and she has shown empathy toward outcasts like Willow ("Welcome to the Hellmouth") and Jonathan ("Earshot"). |
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Post by Emmie on Feb 19, 2009 12:02:24 GMT -5
Clickable PREVIEW PAGES: I really enjoyed the preview. Not sure about Andrew's voice being off really because I didn't get some of the refs so I was busy being more confused about that. Maybe someone can list the context of all the refs? What I did enjoy was Buffy in these pages. And it showed some amazing patience on her part that she agreed to go with Andrew (against Xan's advice) and managed to listen to all that for who knows how many miles, only to interrupt when she could actually understand what he was saying instead of yelling, "Shut up!" Which was what I fully expected and probably would have done myself in the same situation. Now for anyone who argued maybe Simone wasn't all that bad, I think it's becoming even more clear that Simone is using her power to prey on people and NOT demons. So she's doing the exact opposite of what her power intended - to protect humanity. Now I know Season 8 is setting up Buffy to be against humanity too (LWH), but we still actively see her trying to help humanity by taking out dangerous demons so the parallels between the two are less equitable. Simone is the horrible vision of what Buffy could become if she forgets her mission is to protect humanity. But it's definitely not what Buffy is. Simone's a bully, Buffy isn't. As for Simone's use of guns, I get the feeling that it's just the straight symbolism of guns being a human weapon. So it's used against humans and that's why it's Simone's weapon of choice. Now if Simone were using a rocket launcher I'd be looking around to see if the Judge was back, but in the Buffyverse guns have only ever caused serious harm (death, even) against human beings so Simone's choice of weapon speaks volumes about her. Regarding the continuity: what's the big deal? Season Eight has never committed to when it's taking place. I know Joss and possibly Scott Allie suggested "a year and a half after "Chosen"" but the series itself has been intentionally vague. Joss has said that, whereas the TV show more or less synched up timing-wise to episode air dates, he approaches the comic more like the Marvel Universe's floating timeline. All we really need to know is that Season Eight takes place a couple of years after "Chosen", maybe more, why is it so important to some people to pinpoint exactly which year? The pop culture references indicate it's happening in the present day, and does it really affect the story at all if that's true? Yeah, I agree. The references didn't throw me out of the story (except when I didn't get the references at all) so I just natually assumed we'd shifted to present day pop culture. We're being WAY too rigid about the timeline and I understand that because I used to be that way too. The way I see it, the years between Chosen and Season 8 just kinda happened twice as fast, so I just pretend that we had a different-scaled fast-forward on the real end that is twice as long as the fast-forward on Buffy's end. 3 1/2 years for us was 1 1/2 years for Buffy and I'm fine with that. This is exactly like AtS Season 4 where it immediately starts with Angel only being underwater for the summer, yet the season only lasts a few weeks. Then we have Angel crossing over to when it's May in Sunnydale because it's apocalpyse season. ...this Andrew, while having geekfest moments that gel with his character spouts garbage like "What uuuup" which is almost frat boy-ish. It just threw me a little. Isn't that kind of the point? Andrew acting like a dumb frat boy to try and be cool? Yeah, I just read that as Andrew trying to be cool. Btw, what do people make of Buffy's reaction "Yes. I suppose you did." Without SMG's delivery to go on, this could be interpreted as either genuine sympathy or an insult about Andrew being annoying (ie, "no wonder you were bullied"). I choose the former, since Buffy was being nice to him beforehand, and she has shown empathy toward outcasts like Willow ("Welcome to the Hellmouth") and Jonathan ("Earshot"). I think it would have been delivered softly by SMG with sympathy and understanding. I think Jonathan and Willow's experiences would have been running through her mind as he was saying that. Another thing to consider in why Andrew failed with Simone - Simone is the bully while Andrew is the beta geek (not even the leader-type geek). That was the worst pairing decision ever. Similar to naive Wes trying to help S3 Faith. He lacked the strength to truly lead her then. Simone clearly needed a stronger personality to guide her, though a part of me doubts she's suited to be a slayer at all. It makes me wonder what the real reason for the Cruciamentium was created for - perhaps to get rid of Slayers who were a danger to their true calling. |
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 19, 2009 12:15:24 GMT -5
So... knowing as we do that Buffy is going to witness "the fallen state of Slayers worldwide" in this issue, I have to wonder whether that means their fallen state in the eyes of the public, or that they've "fallen" in the sense of having lost the mission across the board... that it's not just Simone's group that's a problem.
Will this be a much-needed reality check for Buffy that came too late, or will it alienate her even more from "humanity" and end with her endorsing Simone rather than stopping her?
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Post by Emmie on Feb 19, 2009 12:22:32 GMT -5
And hey, how about the symbolism of the Ragna's web - "iron, steel and the snare at the top to trap and suspend her prey." And we see the prey is a Slayer. That's a very industrial and human looking trap for a demon to be using. It evokes the human vs. slayer symbolism we've been focusing on as well as the idea that the slayers are getting caught up in humanity's trap which is keeping them from fighting the forces of evil.
Another way to interpret it a bit more specifically since Nisha is the one in the trap is that by turning on humanity, they're essentially neutralizing the good that Slayers can accomplish because they get caught in humanity's trap. Humanity trapping them because they think they're a threat.
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iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:10]
Posts: 684
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Post by iloveromy on Feb 19, 2009 12:34:12 GMT -5
I got all of his references. Is that sad? I Loved the Battlestar Galactica bit about Dualla and Lee, it was my favorite.
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Post by Emmie on Feb 19, 2009 12:36:13 GMT -5
I got all of his references. Is that sad? I Loved the Battlestar Galactica bit about Dualla and Lee, it was my favorite. Will you explain it so I'll understand?  My geekcard has a lifelong pass for all things Buffy, but a lot of the other stuff went over my head. I got the Star Wars and Superman stuff obviously. |
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 19, 2009 12:43:15 GMT -5
I got all of his references. Is that sad? I Loved the Battlestar Galactica bit about Dualla and Lee, it was my favorite. Will you explain it so I'll understand? My geekcard has a lifelong pass for all things Buffy, but a lot of the other stuff went over my head. I got the Star Wars and Superman stuff obviously. Hmmm. In the airplane panel Andrew's references were to: Star Wars/Superman, The Smurfs, Battlestar Galactica, and V for Vendetta. In the train panel: Dungeons & Dragons (harks back to "Chosen"), Terminator, his own Helen Keller idea, Heath Ledger (of course) and Don Draper from "Mad Men." The car panel: His own experiences with this Italian count (The Immortal? Twilight?) that scored him the fancy car... and apparently Diddy the hip-hop producer... and Star Wars/Superman again... and "Jem", the 80's girls' cartoon... and then Daniel Craig/James Bond. You know... I'm just realizing how much I have in common with Andrew. Sigh. |
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Post by Wyndam on Feb 19, 2009 12:43:53 GMT -5
I am all for Buffy's time-line being fast-forward to 2009, as that is what I would prefer happen, but considering all we have been told on the subject is "around a year and a half after Chosen," I just can't make that leap and accept it yet.
Are we now saying it has been 5 years between Chosen and issue #23? Is Buffy really around 27 years old now?
I am glad that this doesn't bother some people (and I even understand that most people reading the issue won't even recognize most of the references), as I wasn't even really bothered at first either. These giant leaps in time though are just too much for me to just leave it all up to my suspension of disbelief. I didn't even realize I had become such a stickler for this type of stuff until I read this preview, but there it is.
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iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:10]
Posts: 684
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Post by iloveromy on Feb 19, 2009 12:50:38 GMT -5
Will you explain it so I'll understand? My geekcard has a lifelong pass for all things Buffy, but a lot of the other stuff went over my head. I got the Star Wars and Superman stuff obviously. Hmmm. In the airplane panel Andrew's references were to: Star Wars/Superman, The Smurfs, Battlestar Galactica, and V for Vendetta. In the train panel: Dungeons & Dragons (harks back to "Chosen"), Terminator, his own Helen Keller idea, Heath Ledger (of course) and Don Draper from "Mad Men." The car panel: His own experiences with this Italian count (The Immortal? Twilight?) that scored him the fancy car... and apparently Diddy the hip-hop producer... and Star Wars/Superman again... and "Jem", the 80's girls' cartoon... and then Daniel Craig/James Bond. You know... I'm just realizing how much I have in common with Andrew. Sigh. This. |
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alycat7
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
I don't wanna be this good looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear - Spike[Mo0:4]
Posts: 752
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Post by alycat7 on Feb 19, 2009 12:59:38 GMT -5
The preview pages were awesome. I love the rant that Andrew was on, and the fact that Buffy actually joined him is hilarious.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Feb 19, 2009 13:06:34 GMT -5
Ugh, yeah, more timing mistakes. Ever since we started getting these errors, I've just told myself Season 8 takes place in current time until it's proved otherwise. But this preview, (which I haven't read, just the comments), just proves even more that it takes place nowadays. I know it's not that big of a deal, but timing continuity problems make me angry the most. I wish Joss actually gave us a set date.
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Post by Emmie on Feb 19, 2009 13:22:26 GMT -5
You know... I'm just realizing how much I have in common with Andrew. Sigh. Which is kinda funny considering you're convinced that Andrew is evil. Sooooooo... ...what are you hiding, Mr. AndrewCrossett? Wait! No! Don't! Ahhhhh! *dies* *death whispers* Andrew...Crossett is Twilight. |
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Feb 19, 2009 13:24:10 GMT -5
Totally agree with Andrew's views on Terminator btw. Who does care about Arnold, it's not like he did anything in T3. I think it would have been delivered softly by SMG with sympathy and understanding. I think Jonathan and Willow's experiences would have been running through her mind as he was saying that. Buffy can be rather vicious and unforgiving herself though. The Scoobies' treatment of Andrew during S7, while always hilarious, bordered uncomfortably on bullying at times. I still think she was being sympathetic here, but I had to think about it. I am all for Buffy's time-line being fast-forward to 2009, as that is what I would prefer happen, but considering all we have been told on the subject is "around a year and a half after Chosen," I just can't make that leap and accept it yet. Are we now saying it has been 5 years between Chosen and issue #23? Is Buffy really around 27 years old now? I am glad that this doesn't bother some people (and I even understand that most people reading the issue won't even recognize most of the references), as I wasn't even really bothered at first either. These giant leaps in time though are just too much for me to just leave it all up to my suspension of disbelief. I didn't even realize I had become such a stickler for this type of stuff until I read this preview, but there it is. I think the whole year-and-a-half thing was just a guess on Joss' part when the series started, it was never set in stone. As they wrote the scripts, the writers probably decided they didn't want to omit relevant pop culture references on a technicality, it's kind of a perpetually modern floating timeline, which is common in fiction especially comic books. I recommend that you just think of Season Eight as "a few years later" and not hurt your brain thinking about it.  |
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Post by Emmie on Feb 19, 2009 13:34:13 GMT -5
I think it would have been delivered softly by SMG with sympathy and understanding. I think Jonathan and Willow's experiences would have been running through her mind as he was saying that. Buffy can be rather vicious and unforgiving herself though. The Scoobies' treatment of Andrew during S7, while always hilarious, bordered uncomfortably on bullying at times. I still think she was being sympathetic here, but I had to think about it. The Scoobies treatment of Andrew was intentionally mean there. It was a judgment of Andrew murdering Jonathan and working for the First. Only when Andrew started to actively help the Scoobies did he start to get treated better. And really, Buffy was never brutal to Andrew at first more like annoyed and disinterested. The worst she ever was to him was in Storyteller as she had to be in order to make him cry. I think the way SMG delivered the change from menacing to sympathetic when she said, "It wanted your tears" was really incredible. But in this context we have to look at the lead-up to the moment where she delivers the line. I imagine Buffy saying this with understanding, but also a bit of distance as she doesn't look directly at Andrew. Sympathetic but not wholly empathetic as it's something she's been guilty of in the past. Spoken softly with the delivery almost trailing away towards the end. |
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 19, 2009 13:35:27 GMT -5
You know... I'm just realizing how much I have in common with Andrew. Sigh. Which is kinda funny considering you're convinced that Andrew is evil. Sooooooo... Aw, I'm not convinced. It's just a pet theory. I really honestly don't want him to be Twilight. He's probably not, because that revelation wouldn't be hurtful enough to Buffy to suit Joss... ...what are you hiding, Mr. AndrewCrossett? Wait! No! Don't! Ahhhhh! *dies* *death whispers* Andrew...Crossett is Twilight.Nah, I would never do anything to hurt my dear Satsu. It's weird, actually... despite the fact that Twilight is not quite as in-your-face, diabolically EEEEEVIL seeming as most of the previous Big Bads... I might possibly dislike him more intensely than any of the others. I wonder if I'm picking up on something about him that I don't even realize consciously? I used to think he was a pretty ineffectual and lame villain, but he's growing on me... in a bad way. |
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Post by wenxina on Feb 19, 2009 15:05:21 GMT -5
...this Andrew, while having geekfest moments that gel with his character spouts garbage like "What uuuup" which is almost frat boy-ish. It just threw me a little. Isn't that kind of the point? Andrew acting like a dumb frat boy to try and be cool? Btw, what do people make of Buffy's reaction "Yes. I suppose you did." Without SMG's delivery to go on, this could be interpreted as either genuine sympathy or an insult about Andrew being annoying (ie, "no wonder you were bullied"). I choose the former, since Buffy was being nice to him beforehand, and she has shown empathy toward outcasts like Willow ("Welcome to the Hellmouth") and Jonathan ("Earshot"). That could very well be the point... except that whenever Andrew tried to be cool in the past, he's always geeked out even more. Talking about how Dalton went rogue with Bond, Dragonball Z stuff, male Slayers being like ninjas. So while I understand the intent, I just don't see it as being fitting. As to Buffy's reaction, I took it as her being sympathetic. Her body language doesn't suggest otherwise. |
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witcher
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
Homicidal Bunny
Willow fan forever[Mo0:30]
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Post by witcher on Feb 19, 2009 16:42:13 GMT -5
OMG I loved this preview.
I am liking Andrew more and more. I like that he has some kind of useful role in the team now and is not just a joke of a character.
His geek-rant was just to good. I didn't get some references, but the ones I got were hilarious! I am amazed at how long Buffy was able to put up with it. I am not sure is it because she wanted to be nice, or because she was absent minded, with all her worries.
Also I liked Buffy-Andrew bonding over Blond Bond, and the fact that she is seeing Andrew as an actual human being ( she felt sorry for him being bullied in high school, and in S7 he didn't get very good treatment from the Scooby gang).
I hope that just because the web of that demon thing is made out of metal, that doesn't imply that it is some sort of robot-demon spider.
Simon is also becoming one of my favorite S8 villains. She represents all that is bad with the spell that made all Potentials into Slayers, and I hope this is not the last we here of her.
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Post by wenxina on Feb 19, 2009 17:20:14 GMT -5
In my denseness, I totally missed the bit about "private driving lessons"... I'm beginning to wonder if Andrew is just closeted or really just the modern day Candide. And erm... sidenote... Brosnan is still quite yummy at his age.
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iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:10]
Posts: 684
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Post by iloveromy on Feb 19, 2009 17:37:57 GMT -5
In my denseness, I totally missed the bit about "private driving lessons"... I'm beginning to wonder if Andrew is just closeted or really just the modern day Candide. And erm... sidenote... Brosnan is still quite yummy at his age. I think the writers intentionally make Andrew's sexuality ambiguous. That is part of the fun of the character. My take on Andrew is the he is a child in an adult's body. He doesn't care about grown up issues like the other scoobies. He just wants to have a kid-like appreciation for everything. For example, when Angel and Spike visited Andrew in Spain he was surrounded by beautiful woman at the door. I dont think it was because he is closeted or because he is straight, as much as it was him just playing a role. Same thing when he was a watcher. Did you see what he was wearing? It was silly... When it comes to the hopes of fans to see Andrew developed as an openly gay male on Buffy, I think it just isnt going to happen. I am pretty sure Joss and Company have talked about Andrew as a character and why he has a place in the buffyverse. |
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Feb 19, 2009 17:44:59 GMT -5
In my denseness, I totally missed the bit about "private driving lessons"... I'm beginning to wonder if Andrew is just closeted or really just the modern day Candide. And erm... sidenote... Brosnan is still quite yummy at his age. I think the writers intentionally make Andrew's sexuality ambiguous. That is part of the fun of the character. My take on Andrew is the he is a child in an adult's body. He doesn't care about grown up issues like the other scoobies. He just wants to have a kid-like appreciation for everything. For example, when Angel and Spike visited Andrew in Spain he was surrounded by beautiful woman at the door. I dont think it was because he is closeted or because he is straight, as much as it was him just playing a role. Same thing when he was a watcher. Did you see what he was wearing? It was silly... When it comes to the hopes of fans to see Andrew developed as an openly gay male on Buffy, I think it just isnt going to happen. I am pretty sure Joss and Company have talked about Andrew as a character and why he has a place in the buffyverse. Whoah, I think that's the best explanation of Andrew's sexuality I've heard yet. KARMA |
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