"Be brave. Live. For me." - Buffy Fan Club

[cheryl]

Buffy is my favorite character of all characters.

1.) What do you think was Buffy's most heroic moment?

Boy, there are so many how could you pick just one? If I *had* to pick just one, I think it would be in season 2, Becoming, as Buffy sends Angel to Hell.

2.) What do you think is Buffy's greatest character strength (i.e. what is it that you love about her, that makes her a great hero, great friend, etc.)?

Buffy has a huge heart and always forgives. She is about giving others a second chance. When Giles told her that forgiving is something you do because a person needs it, rather than deserves it, I think she made that her motto.

3.) Was there ever a moment when you stopped liking her as a character?

Big No.

4.) What are some of your favorite Buffy quotes?

That one little word from Becoming as Buffy fights Angelus "ME!"

"I'm Buffy, the vampire slayer, and you are?"

"I get it, you're evil, do we have to chat about it all day?"

"Your mouth is open and words are coming out, this is never good."

"I want you to get out of my face!"

"You can attack me, you can send assassins after me, that's fine. But nobody messes with my boyfriend!

"You're the one freaky thing in my freaky world that still makes sense to me."

"Now, we can do this the hard way, or... well, actually there's just the hard way."

"Are you sure? Now, this is not gonna be pretty. We're talking violence, strong language, adult content..."

"Scary! I'll tell you something, though. There are a lot scarier
things than you. And I'm one of them."

" Dawn, the hardest thing in this world ... is to live in it, Be brave." "Live." " For me."

"I killed Angel! Do you even remember that? I would have given up everything I had to be with— I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life. And I put a sword through his heart because I had to."

"Always."

"Angel! I do... sometimes think that far ahead."

"Well you're about to get it back!" to Faith in Graduation Day

"If you apologize to me I will beat you to death!" to Faith

"I can't do this without you." to Giles

"You are my strength." to Xander

[Emmie]

Anybody up for more questions?


Buffy's had some amazing fights through out seven seasons. What's your favorite Buffy fighting move?

Is there a Buffy mannerism you always recognize?

What's the worst (criminial, amoral, etc) thing you think Buffy has ever done? Was it justified (world savage, saving an innocent) or was it inspired by a character flaw?

What do you ultimately want for Buffy? If you were to fast-forward to the end of Buffy's life when she's a little old lady, what would her life story be (post-season 8)?

[Enisy]

Is there a Buffy mannerism you always recognize?

The crossed arms. The deer-caught-in-the-headlights expression. The little throw of the shoulder (which even Cordelia imitated in Fredless -- priceless).

What's the worst (criminial, amoral, etc) thing you think Buffy has ever done? Was it justified (world savage, saving an innocent) or was it inspired by a character flaw?

They are all from Season 8, sadly (robbing a bank, letting vampires snack on innocents to keep them distracted), and I think they are a result of her fixation with the Slayer race, to the point that the human race and its set of rules have lessened in importance for her.

What do you ultimately want for Buffy? If you were to fast-forward to the end of Buffy's life when she's a little old lady, what would her life story be (post-season 8)?

Page 3, Panel 2 of The Long Way Home? *g*

I kid (mostly). Seriously, I hope we don't ever get to see Buffy that far ahead, because I like to fill in the blanks myself. That was the best thing about the ending in Chosen, and the reason why many people still refuse to jump on the Season 8 bandwagon.

My personal futureverse looks a little like Something Blue...

[Emmie]

Buffy's had some amazing fights through out seven seasons. What's your favorite Buffy fighting move?

I love the move Buffy uses in Buffy vs. Dracula where she's fighting a vampire in the cemetary and Dracula is watching her. She jumps up and grabs the vampire's head by her legs and pulls him down in this cool tumble move. Love that.

Is there a Buffy mannerism you always recognize?

The hand raised, defensive "don't touch me" move whenever she's feeling betrayed or vulnerable. The way Sarah Michelle Gellar says "okay", makes it sound like "okhey" - I always see that as a Buffyism. Like enisy said, the widened eyes deer-in-the-headlights look.



****Will add more later...

[Whedon Fan]

You all might not agree on half of the things I've said here and I'm re-reading this and thinking twice about a few things but here it is:

1.) What do you think was Buffy's most heroic moment?
Prophecy Girl. I know The Gift holds a lot of weight and for some very good reasons but Buffy was older then nd had more experience. But in Prophecy Girl Buffy went down to face the Master knowing that she will die, she saved the world and even knocked out Giles to stop him going down. The entire scene when she is yelling at Giles is heart breaking. "Tell me my signs, read me my fortune"! Remember she was only 16 at the time.

2.) What do you think is Buffy's greatest character strength (i.e. what is it that you love about her, that makes her a great hero, great friend, etc.)?
That even though she is the slayer and has a lot of responsibilities she still got involved in other peoples troubles if they needed her. I can't imagine previous slayers helping out the way Buffy did. Also she maintainers a normal life (well tried to) and that counts for a lot. Likes he said to Giles "I'm the slayer but I'm also a person"

3.) Was there ever a moment when you stopped liking her as a character?
Yes. The next again day after she had sex with Spike (the first time) and Spike kept holding onto her and not letting her go. All she said was "let me go". And then she started kissing him. If you didn't want to be there hit him and walk out. Buffy as a character is better/stronger than that. Of course she eventually did hit him after Spike flashed her underwear.

4.) What are some of your favorite Buffy quotes?
I want you to get out of my face:~ Chosen
and more or less all the words she said that end in "y" they always crack me up. Some are completely random.

5.) Buffy's had some amazing fights through out seven seasons. What's your favorite Buffy fighting move?
When she goes to save Willow whilst she is fighting Glory. She does a forward cartwheel and whacks Glory across the face whilst doing it. That and when Buffy flips the scythe and throws down 4-5 Ubervamps off of the side of the hellmouth in Chosen.

6.) Is there a Buffy mannerism you always recognize?
She pouts and raises her eye brows when she's annoyed at a cheeky comment (usually made by Xander) Crossing her arms during speeches.

7.) What's the worst (criminal, amoral, etc) thing you think Buffy has ever done? Was it justified (world savage, saving an innocent) or was it inspired by a character flaw?
Stealing from that shop with Faith in season 3. At least in season 8 she is stealing to fund the slayers. Righting a wrong to do good but what she did with Faith was just theft-plain and simple. And she did knock out the police men who arrested them and left them in the car. Although she was been pushed by Faith the entire time but still...

8.) What do you ultimately want for Buffy? If you were to fast-forward to the end of Buffy's life when she's a little old lady, what would her life story be (post-season 8)?
For her to be happy and satisfied with her life. For another slayer to obviously take over and protect the world. Make it sort of like Batman: Beyond where old Bruce Wayne is helping the new Batman. A new slayer is doing all the fighting but can go to Buffy for guidance and help. Also to be with Xander, they deserve each other and there is no complications. Angel and Spike aren't good for her soul or no soul. But if I had to choose someone other than Xander then I'd choose Angel but only if he became human.

[wenxina]

Oct 30, 2008 17:22:52 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Anybody up for more questions?


Buffy's had some amazing fights through out seven seasons. What's your favorite Buffy fighting move?

Well... I dunno if it's my favorite fight move, but Buffy does have a very distinctive right cross. It's almost a trademark move, since I've never seen anyone punch like her. Or the backhand, which inevitably results in her opponent flying away. But if I had to choose a favorite battle for the overall aesthetic, I'd have to go with the Buffy vs. Faith one in "Graduation Day, Pt. 1".

Oct 30, 2008 17:22:52 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Is there a Buffy mannerism you always recognize?

Her surprised face. Eyes go big, mouth does a "huh?" expression.

Oct 30, 2008 17:22:52 GMT -5 Emmie said:

What's the worst (criminial, amoral, etc) thing you think Buffy has ever done? Was it justified (world savage, saving an innocent) or was it inspired by a character flaw?

Using Spike, knowing how he felt for her. Was it fully justified? No. But it was an instinctual need to connect, even at the basest level. Of the Scoobies, the only one to understand what it feels like to claw their way out of their own grave was Spike. And nevermind the trauma of being buried alive (which is a fear of Buffy's, I believe), the fact that for a split second, she must have wondered if she had turned into the very thing she was destined to fight: a vampire. i wouldn't call her need a character flaw so much as a tragic twist on a trait that has always made Buffy, well, Buffy.

Oct 30, 2008 17:22:52 GMT -5 Emmie said:

What do you ultimately want for Buffy? If you were to fast-forward to the end of Buffy's life when she's a little old lady, what would her life story be (post-season 8)?

Finally? Hmm... an honorable death. Or being able to move beyond this "phase" of her life, knowing that what she's created (a legion of Slayers) was good, and being able to let go of her duties as a Slayer, and move onwards with her life. Essentially, to become a woman unfettered by such demanding duties.
HOWEVER, and here's the big caveat, there's probably no way she'll ever walk away from the good fight, and given Fray's future (should it come to pass... ToYL curently has that possibility in limbo, IMO), that may not be possible.

[Tyler Austin "tiewashere"]

I'm totally a Buffy fan. My favorite fictional character ever. So real.

[vampmogs]

Yay new questions!


Buffy's had some amazing fights through out seven seasons. What's your favorite Buffy fighting move?

Hmm.. this is a hard one. Pretty much anything she does against Faith in 'Graduation Day.' I especially liked when she flips over Faith's back then kicks her twice in the back. I also loved her move in 'Chosen' when Caleb has her by the neck, she shoves him back, then leaps sideways into the air, double kicking him across the face, it's one of the coolest stunts they ever did on the show.

Is there a Buffy mannerism you always recognize?

Not so much a "mannerism" but a trait- she really *doesn't* like being touched. We've seen this on multiple occasions. When Angel shoves her back in 'Amends' she replies by backhanding him in the face, when Angel grabs her shoulder to stop her in 'Sanctuary' she backhands him, when Spike grabs her shoulder in 'Smashed' she yells "don't touch me!" and punches him to the ground. It's even seen in 'Homecoming' when Cordy tells her to stay out of her way, placing a hand on Buffy's shoulder as she goes to brush past her. Buffy grabs her hand and angrily says "don't ever do that again" and Buffy actually managed to restrain herself with Riley in 'Into the Woods' when he has his hand on her, coldly, calming *telling him* to "get his hand of of me." So the girl doesn't like to be touched, she'll hit you hard, I guess it's boundary issues worked up after being violently attacked on a daily basis.

What's the worst (criminial, amoral, etc) thing you think Buffy has ever done? Was it justified (world savage, saving an innocent) or was it inspired by a character flaw?

The worst thing she's ever done by justified by world savage? I guess you could say stealing a rocket launcher from a military base, then proceeding to fire it in a public shocking area. That's the most "criminal" thing she's ever done, but justified given why she did it. Followed up would be her breaking to the store with Faith, less justified and more "want.take.have" and the bank robbery, which again is more "want.take.have" in many ways, given her facial expression when she's staring into that diamond.

What do you ultimately want for Buffy? If you were to fast-forward to the end of Buffy's life when she's a little old lady, what would her life story be (post-season 8)?

To have found some inner peace, to have had a few years with no violence. To have found someone she's able to love openly and for them to love her back, to be surrounded by 'fat grandchildren' and to have lived the remainder of her days with Xander and Willow. I couldn't ask for anything better.

[cheryl]

Buffy's had some amazing fights through out seven seasons. What's your favorite Buffy fighting move?

You know this is an area that I had not ever given much thought to. I love to watch Buffy kick some ass. In what way is my favorite? Every move she has. I like it when Buffy uses kicks followed by punches. I also really like it when Buffy jumps down from a higher platform onto a lower one. That gets me jazzed everytime. Another of my favorite moves is when she assumes the slayer stance, head tilted down and kinda barely looks up with a menacing stare. In truth, everything that Buffy does looks pretty awesome to me.

Is there a Buffy mannerism you always recognize?

The snarky half smile would have to be my favorite.

What's the worst (criminial, amoral, etc) thing you think Buffy has ever done? Was it justified (world savage, saving an innocent) or was it inspired by a character flaw?

Robbing banks so far.

What do you ultimately want for Buffy? If you were to fast-forward to the end of Buffy's life when she's a little old lady, what would her life story be (post-season 8)?

[/quote]

I want Buffy to be surrounded by family and people who love her. Fat grandchildren and great grandchildren. Lots of love.

[Emmie]

Wow, guys thank you so much for answering these! It's so great reading what everybody thinks. I'm giving you all lots of karma for being so awesome and interesting and because I can.

Any of you guys read fanfiction? If so, here's a question:

What's the best Buffy characterization piece you've found in a fanfiction story?

[cheryl]

Hmm, I have read so many fan fics over the years and a lot of them were really good. Just about anything by Ducks and Margot is fabulous. If you want to check some of those out, look in the Babble Boards archive. Some great stuff there.

Thanks for the karma. ;D

[Enisy]

Thanks for the karma, Emmie, you're a sweetheart.

What's the best Buffy characterization piece you've found in a fanfiction story?

I only really read Spike/Buffy stories, but for a piece that's heavy on the characterization and not-so-heavy on the Spuffy, I'll say...

The Reflecting Pool by The Deadly Hook
Summary: Post-series, Buffy revisits the Slayer guide figure from "Intervention," only in the Brave New World of multiple Slayers, the spiritual forces have... changed.

The Reflecting Pool - Epilogue
Summary: Coda to the story written for Seasonal Spuffy, Fall '06. Post-series, Buffy revisits the Slayer guide figure from "Intervention," and in the aftermath faces some home truths. Includes some speculation about possible effects Slayer spell, and, you know, that ol' Spike/Buffy.
I do very much like the original story's melancholy tone, so I'm keeping this part separate for now. But if you want to go a little further...

Another question, in the same vein:

What's your favourite Buffy-centric music video?

[CookieDough]

1.) What do you think was Buffy's most heroic moment?

Sounds silly, but I think the entire episode in 'Helpless' makes up one of her most heroic moments. From the fighting on sans power to the telling off of the council at the end...priceless!

2.) What do you think is Buffy's greatest character strength (i.e. what is it that you love about her, that makes her a great hero, great friend, etc.)?

Ultimately, her self-confidence.

3.) Was there ever a moment when you stopped liking her as a character?

Nope, I could alwasy identify with her even when I disagreed with her actions.

4.) What are some of your favorite Buffy quotes?

"I don't think I'll be taking anymore orders"

The Cookie dough speech

"The Council is not welcome here. I have no time for orders. If I need someone to scream like a woman I'll give you a call"

"I don't want any trouble. I just want to be alone and quiet in a room with a chair and a fireplace and a tea cozy. I don't even know what a tea cozy is, but I want one."

"I'm going to give you all a nice, fun, normal evening, if I have to kill every single person on the face of the earth to do it"

"If you think that is enough to kill me, you really don't know what a Slayer is."

"I'm the thing that monsters have nightmares about. And right now, you and me are gonna show 'em why."


"I don't know what's coming next. But I do know it's gonna be just like this -- hard, painful. But in the end, it's gonna be us. If we all do our parts, believe it, we'll be the ones left standing. Here endeth the lesson"



Buffy's had some amazing fights through out seven seasons. What's your favorite Buffy fighting move?

My favorite move? I guess when she decapitates the Ubr-Vamp in Thunderdome.

Is there a Buffy mannerism you always recognize?

The one eyebrow up sly smile

What's the worst (criminial, amoral, etc) thing you think Buffy has ever done? Was it justified (world savage, saving an innocent) or was it inspired by a character flaw?

Want Take Have = Character flaw


What do you ultimately want for Buffy? If you were to fast-forward to the end of Buffy's life when she's a little old lady, what would her life story be (post-season 8)?

I would see her snuggled up in bed telling real life stories to her grandchildren...
while a now human Angel cooks her breakfast in the kitchen

[Emmie]

Oooo thanks for the fic, enisy. *goes off to read*

Oh wait, but first I'll answer this -

What's your favourite Buffy-centric music video?

I really like this one -



ETA: enisy, loved both fics. Perfect Buffy characterization, showing her mature heart, her melancholy, her complex dream states. Just great all around.

[vampmogs]

I was thinking a little more about the character of Buffy today after watching 'Selfless' and in particular when she's having her argument with Xander. This line really stuck out to me;

"I killed Angel. *Do you even remember that?*"

And it really got me thinking about a lot of the things Buffy has been through and has had to deal with, keep bottled up inside, and go on with her life, that other characters haven't. They certainly all haven't had the easiest of lives, don't get me wrong, but I think those around her and us as fans can sometimes forgot how much crap she specifically goes through.

I mean to Xander that moment in 'Becoming' where Buffy kills Angel would have been one more moment to add to his "Buffy's my hero list" and why shouldn't he, it was an amazing heroic moment. However, for Buffy, it was a horribly painful, terribly traumatic ordeal, there was nothing heroic about it for her. And she's lived with that ever since, the impression I got from her line in 'Selfless' was that she still does live with that and there's some anger there that Xander doesn't even consider that moment, there's even an accusation that he doesn't even remember it.

That’s one area where no one but her probably understands that, maybe Angel given his hero title and the decisions he’s had to make. It actually got me thinking about Angel’s rant to Lorne in season two where he’s terribly frustrated that he has Wolfram and Hart making it their life goal to play with his head and try and screw with him and yet his friends tell him to “smile more” or to “get over it.” It frustrated Angel that people expected him to be happy given the things he was dealing with, and I think Buffy suffers from the same thing.

Those around her respect her or idealise her so much that they sometimes forgot how all these things she’s done in her life gave her one hell of an emotional battering and you end up with people like Xander sometimes forgetting that. It’s understandable, but must be hard for Buffy.

[Emmie]

vampmogs -

All you just said is a huge reason why I'm *always* in Buffy's corner. I agree that sometimes it feels like her friends don't consider all she's had to deal with, that sometimes it's like they forget these ordeals, but *I* remember them. Which is why I sometimes lose patience with Xander and Willow for pushing her or having unrealistic expectations of her.

To me, the greatest example of this is expecting Buffy to be happy after being torn out of heaven and left to crawl out of her grave. She's just returned from the dead and her friends are all crowded around her chattering and freaking her out. The only people who show insight and care as to how fragile Buffy is at that moment are Dawn and Spike. Even if they weren't aware that she was back from heaven, she still just returned from the dead. Buffy showed more compassion, understanding and patience to Angel when he'd returned from hell in his animalistic state.

I think Giles also shows an understanding of her state, but his leaving seems to negate this sensitivity later on. After he just discovers that Buffy is dealing with losing heaven and the mother of all depressions, he decides to leave so she can stand on her own...sorry, but abandoning someone in such a delicate and fragile emotional state is the absolute wrong thing to do. It does not lead to mental and emotional health. It felt to me like Giles leaving was like he was telling Buffy to "grow up", as if her needing help right then was a mistake, a weakness. That her being traumatized was actually her acting immature. Later on, he realizes this error when he says "sometimes the most adult thing you can do is ... ask for help when you need it".

Just wondering about this now, did the Scoobies ever apologize for taking Buffy out of heaven?

[lmblack21]

Nov 4, 2008 2:57:45 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

I was thinking a little more about the character of Buffy today after watching 'Selfless' and in particular when she's having her argument with Xander. This line really stuck out to me;

"I killed Angel. *Do you even remember that?*"

And it really got me thinking about a lot of the things Buffy has been through and has had to deal with, keep bottled up inside, and go on with her life, that other characters haven't. They certainly all haven't had the easiest of lives, don't get me wrong, but I think those around her and us as fans can sometimes forgot how much crap she specifically goes through.

I mean to Xander that moment in 'Becoming' where Buffy kills Angel would have been one more moment to add to his "Buffy's my hero list" and why shouldn't he, it was an amazing heroic moment. However, for Buffy, it was a horribly painful, terribly traumatic ordeal, there was nothing heroic about it for her. And she's lived with that ever since, the impression I got from her line in 'Selfless' was that she still does live with that and there's some anger there that Xander doesn't even consider that moment, there's even an accusation that he doesn't even remember it.

That’s one area where no one but her probably understands that, maybe Angel given his hero title and the decisions he’s had to make. It actually got me thinking about Angel’s rant to Lorne in season two where he’s terribly frustrated that he has Wolfram and Hart making it their life goal to play with his head and try and screw with him and yet his friends tell him to “smile more” or to “get over it.” It frustrated Angel that people expected him to be happy given the things he was dealing with, and I think Buffy suffers from the same thing.

Those around her respect her or idealise her so much that they sometimes forgot how all these things she’s done in her life gave her one hell of an emotional battering and you end up with people like Xander sometimes forgetting that. It’s understandable, but must be hard for Buffy.

I'm in love with this post.

It's one of the MAJOR reasons I had a problem with season 6 and 7 - her friends and family suddenly lost their collective minds and Buffy was left alone and betrayed.

-Luc

[vampmogs]

Just to clarify guys, I think it's some of Buffy's fault as well, but I'll get to that in a moment

Nov 4, 2008 17:15:58 GMT -5 Emmie said:

All you just said is a huge reason why I'm *always* in Buffy's corner. I agree that sometimes it feels like her friends don't consider all she's had to deal with, that sometimes it's like they forget these ordeals, but *I* remember them. Which is why I sometimes lose patience with Xander and Willow for pushing her or having unrealistic expectations of her.

I personally think Xander does it more than Willow because Xander hero worships Buffy, which is adorable and justified given how heroic she is, but often ends up to higher expectations as you say, or greater disappointment when Xander finds out she's made a mistake (i.e sleeping with Spike in season six.) But Willow's a little different in my opinion, unlike Xander she sympathised and connected with Buffy about keeping Angel a secret in 'Revelations' and she tells Buffy in 'Bring on the Night' that she knows Buffy will never ask for it but that she needs help. So it's definitly more of a Xander thing.

To me, the greatest example of this is expecting Buffy to be happy after being torn out of heaven and left to crawl out of her grave. She's just returned from the dead and her friends are all crowded around her chattering and freaking her out. The only people who show insight and care as to how fragile Buffy is at that moment are Dawn and Spike. Even if they weren't aware that she was back from heaven, she still just returned from the dead. Buffy showed more compassion, understanding and patience to Angel when he'd returned from hell in his animalistic state.

Agreed. But on the other hand I cut them a bit of slack because it shows how much they care about her, that's why they're so frenzied and worried. Dawn has the luxury of not being involved in all the crazy hairy stuff which probably allowed her to mellow down a bit, and the idea wasn't so strange for Spike because he's a supernatural creature who's used to these kind of affairs whereas it was mind blowing for the Scoobs. I kind of loved it about the Scoobies how they had such natural reactions to all these things happening.

I think Giles also shows an understanding of her state, but his leaving seems to negate this sensitivity later on. After he just discovers that Buffy is dealing with losing heaven and the mother of all depressions, he decides to leave so she can stand on her own...sorry, but abandoning someone in such a delicate and fragile emotional state is the absolute wrong thing to do. It does not lead to mental and emotional health. It felt to me like Giles leaving was like he was telling Buffy to "grow up", as if her needing help right then was a mistake, a weakness. That her being traumatized was actually her acting immature. Later on, he realizes this error when he says "sometimes the most adult thing you can do is ... ask for help when you need it".

I'm one of the few people who always agree with what Giles did here. Because it started before she came back from the dead, her reliance on him begun in season five when she tried to off load her responsibilities regarding Dawn onto him in 'Tough Love.' I think it's unfair, Giles is a person with a right to have his own life and I think sometimes people expect him just to have no life and to just be there for Buffy no matter what. And I think it did teach her to be a more mature person, Buffy believes it to, as she states in 'Grave.'

Just wondering about this now, did the Scoobies ever apologize for taking Buffy out of heaven?

Nope, not in so many words. Willow began to say she was sorry in 'Tabula Rasa' but Buffy cut her off, crying "your sorry, everybody's sorry!" so I can see why the Scoobies didn't. It's not something you can exactly say sorry for, which is kind of what Angel says to Holtz but then does say sorry because Holtz said it wouldn't mean much, but it'd mean something. It's also a combination of the fact that as Xander says, he feels weird feeling bad that his friend's not dead. So he simplified it in his head "me like Buffy, Buffy's alive so me glad." It was his way of coping. Which I agree wasn’t best for Buffy, as she says to him in ‘Seeing Red’ she felt like he didn’t want to know, but I can hardly blame Xander for wanting to try and fix a very complicated situation in his head.

But to briefly touch on what both you and Lucina have said, I do think it takes two to tango. Yes the Scoobies didn't handle the situation the best by any means in season six but a lot of it was Buffy's fault as well. She has a habit of easily pushing herself away from those close to her, she admits as much in 'Touched.' She didn't try talking to these people, she never gave it a shot, and in season seven she distanced herself again. I understand why she did it but at the end of the day there's only so much she people can do for someone who's unwilling to open up and share. If she'd opened up sooner, like she did with Tara in 'Dead Things' she'd have felt a lot better, as she did when we saw a more relaxed Buffy later on after sharing it with Tara. And she mistook Willow's reaction here, as soon as Willow finds out about Spike she says "Buffy must really need someone to talk to" which isn't what Buffy expected, those I partially blame Spike as he intentionally put a lot of ideas into her head that they'd despise her should they find out.

And in season seven, what justified Buffy's claim they weren't watching their back? I get her feeling that towards Giles even if I understand where he was coming from in 'LMPTM' but there was absolutely no reason to hate on Xander, Willow or Dawn. At that point Buffy seemed more like a leader falling from grace who begins pointing the fingers at others, getting suspicious and feeling very paranoid.

I just wished they had shown the shooting script version of the mutiny in 'Empty Places' because it's far better. It brings up a lot of stuff like Jenny, and Willow and Xander get far more lines to help understand where they're coming from, there was also specific instructions to show both Xander and Willow look deeply hurt after Giles calls Buffy out on saying accusing them of no longer watching her back, which would have helped sell their POV a lot. There was also a great moment where Willow forcefully tells Kennedy to back off and leave Buffy alone, but regretably admit she needs a breather to rest.

But I agree about the Scoobies forgetting some of the things she's been through, I think it happens with fans as well. I don't like it when people say Buffy's to whiney, I mean, heck, she has a lot a to whine about for crying out loud. Same for Angel, I hate it when fans say he sucks because he broods, I mean seriously, not only is he brooding because he remembers killing thousands upon thousands of people viciously but if he's too happy he looses his soul and goes evil!! So what exactly do they expect him to do!?

[Emmie]

Lots to think about in response to you, vampmogs. My perspective on the 'Giles leaving' subject is that his initial impulse to leave from season 5 sprang from his feeling like he wasn't needed anymore. Then later in that very episode his skills as a watcher and guide are shown to be more important than ever.

As for Giles being there for Buffy no matter what, I've always viewed his role as a watcher as something he was destined to do - that's the way Giles expresses it to Buffy in Never Kill A Boy On the First Date. He's made sacrifices in the past as evidenced by his dreams in Restless, but these were personal sacrifices made for a higher calling. For saving the world. I don't think Giles should have remained with Buffy because he was her father figure and she needed a parent. I think she needed her guide, her experienced partner in all things slayer.

I see a lot of Buffy's journey as a continuation of her identity crisis which sprung from Season 5's Buffy vs Dracula.. An exploration which Giles helped her to better understand by taking her on the quest in Intervention. He had mystical guardianship over the slayer which he had to release for that quest. What happened to that guardianship? Who decides when it's over? Should there ever be a time when a slayer shouldn't have a watcher? To that last question, I think season 8 is showing us the dangers of too many slayers without watchers.

Buffy sacrifices herself to save the world, is pulled out of heaven and forced to claw her way out of her grave, emotionally stunted and traumatized by the whole experience, and continues to have difficulty finding her purpose and feeling anything at all. I don't see this as her acting immature, I don't think it was about her needing to grow up because she'd already done that in season 5. This was a psychological retreat due to trauma, not a 20-something girl partying too much and not taking responsibility for her life. She was trying to heal and I believe she would have done a better job if Giles had been around.

In order for season 6 to happen the way it did, for "life" to become the Big Bad, they needed Giles to be removed from the equation. Frankly, I think if he'd been around a lot of these problems with Buffy and Willow would have been handled differently. I think the storyline does a bit of a disservice to Giles. At the end of Once More, With Feeling, Buffy has finally confessed that she was in heaven and we see the shocked and hurt faces of her friends. In the very next episode, we begin with Giles telling everyone he's leaving. I feel Buffy's reaction strongly in that scene, her basically saying "I just told you that I lost heaven and now you're telling me you're leaving too".

I think Giles returning after Buffy's resurrection was never really intended to be a homecoming. I think he'd always intended to leave again and sadly this wasn't expressed to the other characters. I feel that Buffy's death was the most painful realization for him and her return was a "miracle", but also a promise that he'd have to grieve for her once again. He did what Buffy is often accused of doing and held himself distant, eventually leaving entirely. I think a part of him rationalized that Buffy needed him to be gone so she could take responsibility for her life, but there's a vast difference between someone choosing to be irresponsible and someone being temporarily incapable of fully meeting these expectations. Giles is far too perceptive to mistake her being traumatized for immaturity. I believe his retreat was partially out of the fear of losing her again. It's actually quite similar to the conclusion to Spike:AtF, removing oneself from making emotional connections to people you fear will ultimately die and bring you pain.

Perhaps it's fair for Giles to have had the reprieve during season 6 and pursue other life goals. But if so, why not find a replacement watcher? A slayer just returned from the dead and still traumatized by the experience who must protect a hellmouth doesn't sound like the type of situation you leave unattended. It wasn't a wise decision Giles made, as evidenced by the consequences that followed in that season. I think it's okay for Giles to be wrong about this. That's what made for the drama of the arc. But I still see it as a moment where Giles faltered, similar to when he drugged Buffy in Helpless.

[wenxina]

Nov 5, 2008 17:39:39 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Perhaps it's fair for Giles to have had the reprieve during season 6 and pursue other life goals. But if so, why not find a replacement watcher? A slayer just returned from the dead and still traumatized by the experience who must protect a hellmouth doesn't sound like the type of situation you leave unattended. It wasn't a wise decision Giles made, as evidenced by the consequences that followed in that season. I think it's okay for Giles to be wrong about this. That's what made for the drama of the arc. But I still see it as a moment where Giles faltered, similar to when he drugged Buffy in Helpless.

I'm not sure that the WC was aware of Buffy's second death. They're the only ones who can appoint a new Watcher, and since Buffy's death was hidden from even family (Hank didn't know), I doubt the WC was privy to that information. Also, since the Slayer line is now theoretically carried through Faith (more evidence supports this assumption than having it still carried through Buffy), Buffy's death would not have activated another Slayer (which is a sure-fire alarm for the death of the previous Slayer), meaning that they wouldn't even be able to rely on that for a clue.
And, even if Giles wanted to get someone else to watch Buffy while he was gone, Buffy had already defected from the Slayer organization. Nevermind that, Giles wasn't on the friendliest terms with the WC at that point, since Buffy had essentially strongarmed the WC into paying Giles retroactively, for being her accomplice in rebelling against the system in the first place.