"Be brave. Live. For me." - Buffy Fan Club

[Emmie]

Ah, but the Watcher's Council not being aware of Buffy's second death doesn't negate the (imo) paramount need of a watcher. Furthermore, the line going through Faith didn't seem all that important to them when Buffy was re-negotiating terms during Checkpoint. Where the line runs isn't really relevant to them regarding Faith until Buffy is dead (and they're aware of it) or Buffy stops fighting evil. Since Buffy continued the fight, they allowed Faith to take up space in jail in search for redemption since it wasn't interfering with the "slayer" meeting her responsibilities.

Buffy did defect from the Council in Graduation Day but renewed a distant but working relationship with the Council again during Checkpoint when she re-negotiated Giles receiving his salary, ahem, retroactively. So she was "working" with them again. Yeah, she strong-armed them but it still was a working relationship. They were communicating, a huge improvement over the closed-door status of the year before.

This brings up an interesting query for me - did Giles put in his notice to the Council when he left Sunnydale during Bargaining or again during Tabula Rasa? I just don't find it very plausible that the Council would knowingly have the active Slayer (as in not incarcerated) fighting the forces of evil without a watcher. Remember, a watcher is not only important to research and advise the Slayer but to also record the Slayer's exploits. The Watcher's Diaries are a very important record. If Giles left Buffy and quit the Council, then the Council is negligent for not providing a source of records during this time. If Giles left Buffy and didn't inform the Council, then he was still collecting a paycheck for work he was no longer doing and was also acting negligently in not recording the exploits of the slayer.

Post-Checkpoint, Giles was being paid for his services as watcher by the Council. Was he still being paid during Buffy's death? Since her death was kept a secret, I assume yes. Did he continue to collect after he left Sunnydale? If he quit being a watcher through the Council, why didn't the Council send a replacement? It all just seems incredibly negligent to me. Buffy, Xander and Willow weren't the only ones making bad decisions during that year apparently.

[wenxina]

Difficult times drive people to do strange things?
I'm not sure if it's ever been established if Giles actually quit again, but it's possible that he did post-"Tabula Rasa". I say this because it seemed that he was more in touch with the coven that loaned him the magics in "Two To Go", the same coven that rehabilitated Willow, as well as sought out Potentials after the demise of the WC, than the actual WC itself. It seemed that his operations at the WC were kinda covert; he stole the texts regarding the First from the Council. Granted, it could have been as simple as not having time for protocol (didn't he say something like that?), but it could also have been a euphemism. Even though Giles was reinstated as Buffy's Watcher, it seemed to be more of a freelance position, rather than one appointed by the WC. Buffy made it clear that she was going to call the shots, and the WC would just have to fall in line. She would call when she needed help, but otherwise, the Council was to leave her alone, which they did. She chose her Watcher, and that was that. Also, why would the WC insist on getting her another Watcher? She was agreeing to allow them some input as long as they played by her rules. She framed it very concisely; without the Slayer, the WC were just a bunch of spectators. Pressing another Watcher on her would have just caused her to drop them again. And an imposed Watcher, like Wesley, holds no clout over the Scoobies.

My point with bringing in the Faith bit was merely that the Council may not have been aware that Buffy had died; if the line carries on through Faith, they would have no way of knowing that a Slayer had died, especially since there was an incredibly perky substitute.
If they had known... they would have been frantically trying to get an active Slayer and a Watcher over to the Hellmouth ASAP. Provided a new one was called, but as I said, I doubt there was one. Other ways to solve this problem: pull some strings to get Faith out of jail, pull some strings to bust Faith out of jail, or pull some strings to get Faith killed so that another Slayer may be called. None of which happened, leading once more to the conclusion that the just didn't know.

On that note, Buffy et al weren't the only ones withholding information; the WC failed to inform her of the First's MO, even when it was very obvious to them. They were about to visit the Hellmouth when they were blown up. Which again leads me to believe that Giles was not in their employ at that time; if he had learned of anything, he would already have been in contact with the Scoobies at Sunnydale. However, it seemed that he learned of things the roundabout way (discovering a dying colleague, receiving the confirmation of his fears) and stealing the books. He must have probably heard rumblings... there was no reason to visit said colleague otherwise, unless it was for tea, and it just didn't seem that way. Encountering the Bringer was just affirmation to his suspicion.

But to bring this home to Buffy again, a reason for my love for her is the fact that even other such demanding pressure, she managed to evolve, to become a young woman in control of her destiny (well... it's a loose expression anyway), rather than a girl dictated by others. The fact that she was able to function, even without a Watcher telling her what to do gives her a certain autonomy that no predecessor ever had. She effectively picked her own Council when she graduated, and even when she could have clung on to Giles (like she wanted to in S6), she dropped him when she felt that his interests were no longer aligned with hers. It was a brave move, and as Giles must have seen in the end, the right move. He was the father figure, but he had to step back.

Which comes back to Giles' leave of absence in Buffy's time of need. I think a big part of it was also because it was hard for Giles to see Buffy so frail and broken. His wanting her to "grow up" as you argued was probably a result of his want to see her whole and strong again, not weak like she was after returning from the grave. Was it weakness? Yes. But in a season of such basic character flaws, it was a rather nice subtle layer of gloom and doom. Was there even a moment of pure happiness in S6? Really? Bringing down the house with Spike doesn't count!

[lmblack21]

Nov 5, 2008 3:15:18 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

I personally think Xander does it more than Willow because Xander hero worships Buffy, which is adorable and justified given how heroic she is, but often ends up to higher expectations as you say, or greater disappointment when Xander finds out she's made a mistake (i.e sleeping with Spike in season six.) But Willow's a little different in my opinion, unlike Xander she sympathised and connected with Buffy about keeping Angel a secret in 'Revelations' and she tells Buffy in 'Bring on the Night' that she knows Buffy will never ask for it but that she needs help. So it's definitly more of a Xander thing.

You've touched on one of the major reasons I've always had a problem with the idea of Buffy/Xander. He puts her on a pedestal and when she doesn't live up to his high expectations, he often acts like a jerk to her - something he admits to in season 6 and acknowledges is probably one of the reasons she DOESN'T always share with him. And that is a trait he exhibited from season 2 all the way through season 7, sadly.

Nov 5, 2008 3:15:18 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

I'm one of the few people who always agree with what Giles did here. Because it started before she came back from the dead, her reliance on him begun in season five when she tried to off load her responsibilities regarding Dawn onto him in 'Tough Love.' I think it's unfair, Giles is a person with a right to have his own life and I think sometimes people expect him just to have no life and to just be there for Buffy no matter what. And I think it did teach her to be a more mature person, Buffy believes it to, as she states in 'Grave.'

I couldn't possibly disagree more with this. The problem for me isn't understanding that Buffy needed to stand on her own a bit or that Giles needed his own life. It's that he chose THE ABSOLUTE WORST TIME EVER to make that happen.

This is the same Giles who worried in season 5 about leaving Buffy for ONE WEEK to go to England to get needed information about Glory because Buffy was a little down over her breakup with Riley.

Her dependence on him in season 5 was VERY minimal (she was clearly much more there for Dawn in season 5) and that was completely understandable given the severity of this loss of their mother.

But in season 6 he just utterly lost his mind. Buffy was SUICIDALLY depressed and he has just learned why and he leaves her?? Nuh, sorry, no amount of "Giles needs a life" (selfish at that moment, imo) and Buffy "needing to grow up" (ironic in the extreme) makes up for the horribleness of that arc for me. And if you remember his song to her in "OMWF", it's not just Dawn he rightfully expected her to take care of, he worried about all the "cries around" her she didn't hear at all. I'm sorry, why is Buffy responsible for all those cries around her and who takes care of her for once?

For God's sake, in retrospect, it's no wonder she left them all behind in season 2 - this is what they do to her when she tells them how badly she needs them - they leave. And considering Buffy's own absentee father and how much of a father figure Giles was (and by his own admssion and feelings) this was a huge betrayal imo to Buffy and the fans of Buffy and Giles respectively.

Yes, I'm still bitter.

Nov 5, 2008 3:15:18 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

Nope, not in so many words. Willow began to say she was sorry in 'Tabula Rasa' but Buffy cut her off, crying "your sorry, everybody's sorry!" so I can see why the Scoobies didn't. It's not something you can exactly say sorry for, which is kind of what Angel says to Holtz but then does say sorry because Holtz said it wouldn't mean much, but it'd mean something. It's also a combination of the fact that as Xander says, he feels weird feeling bad that his friend's not dead. So he simplified it in his head "me like Buffy, Buffy's alive so me glad." It was his way of coping. Which I agree wasn’t best for Buffy, as she says to him in ‘Seeing Red’ she felt like he didn’t want to know, but I can hardly blame Xander for wanting to try and fix a very complicated situation in his head.

I didn't actually even need an apology for them for all the reasons you mentioned. What irks me about THIS is that they have one meeting where they all vow to make things better for Buffy - and that's all that happens. Talk with no actual helping - no support. Everyone was falling apart themselves but really, would it hurt them all to chip in in SOME way to ease her burdens? She had so many....and one conversation about it with no follow up action is what made me have huge problems with the SG and Dawn's behavior in season 6.

Nov 5, 2008 3:15:18 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

She has a habit of easily pushing herself away from those close to her, she admits as much in 'Touched.' She didn't try talking to these people, she never gave it a shot, and in season seven she distanced herself again.

Actually, prior to season 6 that was NEVER true. Countless examples abound to show that she DID open herself up. A LOT. It was season 6 and 7 that she started to close herself off and again, to me, the reason is pretty apparent.

Nov 5, 2008 3:15:18 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

I understand why she did it but at the end of the day there's only so much she people can do for someone who's unwilling to open up and share. If she'd opened up sooner, like she did with Tara in 'Dead Things' she'd have felt a lot better, as she did when we saw a more relaxed Buffy later on after sharing it with Tara. And she mistook Willow's reaction here, as soon as Willow finds out about Spike she says "Buffy must really need someone to talk to" which isn't what Buffy expected, those I partially blame Spike as he intentionally put a lot of ideas into her head that they'd despise her should they find out.

Problem here again is that while Buffy is called on HER actions, nobody else's contributing actions were called on and nobody else had to face up to their own issues. I saw early on in season 7 a Buffy who WAS opening up. To Willow, to Dawn, to Giles, even to the potentials.

She laughed and joked and spent time with her friends...and was then royally told off by Giles who basically told her that her relaxed and carefree attitude was likely to get people killed. Did she close off after that? Well hell, who could blame her? Neither did Xander change even after "Selfless" though I had high hopes at the time he would, etc, etc.

Nov 5, 2008 3:15:18 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

And in season seven, what justified Buffy's claim they weren't watching their back? I get her feeling that towards Giles even if I understand where he was coming from in 'LMPTM' but there was absolutely no reason to hate on Xander, Willow or Dawn. At that point Buffy seemed more like a leader falling from grace who begins pointing the fingers at others, getting suspicious and feeling very paranoid.

But again, my problem is, did they ever really address this? Why she felt this way? They were all sure eager to point the finger at Buffy, to heap responsibility and control on her and not go out of their way to help her (what happened to the Giles who said they'd get through things together?) I dunno, Buffy may have contributed but at least she was dealing with it. Which is, once again sadly, way more than we EVER got from the rest of them.

Nov 5, 2008 3:15:18 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

I just wished they had shown the shooting script version of the mutiny in 'Empty Places' because it's far better. It brings up a lot of stuff like Jenny, and Willow and Xander get far more lines to help understand where they're coming from, there was also specific instructions to show both Xander and Willow look deeply hurt after Giles calls Buffy out on saying accusing them of no longer watching her back, which would have helped sell their POV a lot. There was also a great moment where Willow forcefully tells Kennedy to back off and leave Buffy alone, but regretably admit she needs a breather to rest.

I think the original script is worse, actually. God, I would have hated Giles even more than I did if that had aired as it was. Dawn too, actually. Probably Willow as well. Xander is the only one who I understood because he had just suffered a pretty big injury so I got it from him. The lack of action from him (and everyone else) afterward is a different matter though...

But really, how many times have they questioned her supposedly crazy intuitive ideas? A LOT, by the way. And how often is she right? And oh yeah, based on what happened afterwards, how was Faith's leadership ANY DIFFERENT? She decided on a plan, SHE made the choices and they all followed and people DIED. Who called Faith out on that behavior? Aside from Faith, nobody.

And beyond any of that.....who the hell are they to KICK HER OUT OF HER OWN HOUSE? Then comes after - there's Buffy, alone, ON THE STREETS with no place to sleep or have safe refuge and do they wonder where she went or if she was okay? The bringers and the First were roaming around, Buffy had previously been seriously wounded and almost killed and who brings up her safety? NOT ONE PERSON. Faith brings her up because she's suspicious of her and wants people spying on her. That's it. God, I hated them all so much at that moment. It was unforgiveable, imo. And Anya's words were the worst of them all. All of them talking about the price they've paid conveniently ignoring that it was ALWAYS Buffy who paid the most. Ugh. I'm getting ticked off just remembering that vomit-inducing episode and the aftermath of it.

Sorry for all the vehemence in my post, but such is my passion for this character - and my hatred for that path the writers chose to tread down.

-Luc

[CookieDough]

Imblack21 said:
"Faith brings her up because she's suspicious of her and wants people spying on her. That's it. God, I hated them all so much at that moment."

You know, that is an interesting take...I never looked at it that way at all. I always thought that Faith was genuinely worried about Buffy and that was her way of expressing it and making sure Buffy was OK. I always thought it was kind of cool in a twisted ironic way that Faith was the one to show concern for Buffy first.

[lmblack21]

Nov 5, 2008 22:04:03 GMT -5 CookieDough said:

Imblack21 said:
"Faith brings her up because she's suspicious of her and wants people spying on her. That's it. God, I hated them all so much at that moment."

You know, that is an interesting take...I never looked at it that way at all. I always thought that Faith was genuinely worried about Buffy and that was her way of expressing it and making sure Buffy was OK. I always thought it was kind of cool in a twisted ironic way that Faith was the one to show concern for Buffy first.

I wanna believe that and it's possible I suppose. It would be easier for me to believe if she hadn't just had The First Evil come to her as the Mayor to tell her to worry about Buffy.

Because before she tells them to go look for her, she says this to Wood:

FAITH
(stands) When it came to you, did the First tell the truth?

ROBIN
Yeah.

FAITH
It said to watch out for Buffy, that Buffy's dangerous.

ROBIN
Well, what do you think?

FAITH
(paces) Could be. I mean, we've given her pretty good reason to be pissed off.

So Wood is telling her that The First did tell the truth, she believes it's possible....so I don't know.

She does say right after that that she just wished Buffy was there and I really, REALLY want to believe she just wanted to make sure Buffy was safe, but there is enough doubt that I can't say for certain and it pisses me off.

-Luc

[wenxina]

While I agree with you, that Faith could very well have been motivated by self-preservation in her concern for Buffy, I think a large part of it has to do with the fact that she was now in Buffy's shoes, having to make decisions (i.e. telling Giles what time they were going to move out in the morning), and feeling the isolation Buffy felt as a leader. Faith admits that she had always wanted what Buffy had (friends, respect, etc), but now that she had it, she wanted nothing more than to have Buffy right next to her right now. So that lends credibility to the thought that it's possible that Faith was genuinely concerned for Buffy at that point.
I do like your point that it was incredibly selfish of the Scoobies to kick Buffy out, but I think the original idea (which admittedly was kinda lost in the final cut) was for Buffy to actually leave on her own free will, because she couldn't sit around and watch them all do the wrong thing. I actually wish that had come out a little more clearly.

[Emmie]

Nov 5, 2008 21:40:58 GMT -5 wenxina said:

Difficult times drive people to do strange things?
I'm not sure if it's ever been established if Giles actually quit again, but it's possible that he did post-"Tabula Rasa". I say this because it seemed that he was more in touch with the coven that loaned him the magics in "Two To Go", the same coven that rehabilitated Willow, as well as sought out Potentials after the demise of the WC, than the actual WC itself. It seemed that his operations at the WC were kinda covert; he stole the texts regarding the First from the Council. Granted, it could have been as simple as not having time for protocol (didn't he say something like that?), but it could also have been a euphemism. Even though Giles was reinstated as Buffy's Watcher, it seemed to be more of a freelance position, rather than one appointed by the WC. Buffy made it clear that she was going to call the shots, and the WC would just have to fall in line. She would call when she needed help, but otherwise, the Council was to leave her alone, which they did. She chose her Watcher, and that was that. Also, why would the WC insist on getting her another Watcher? She was agreeing to allow them some input as long as they played by her rules. She framed it very concisely; without the Slayer, the WC were just a bunch of spectators. Pressing another Watcher on her would have just caused her to drop them again. And an imposed Watcher, like Wesley, holds no clout over the Scoobies.

So maybe the imposed Watcher wouldn't have the same position as Giles because Buffy wouldn't allow it, but really what about the disservice to the Slayer history books? Those Watchers love their diaries and I can't imagine them just letting this alone. I see two possible story solutions - 1) a new character could have been introduced, which might have been very fun; 2) the Watcher's Council has a covert team of observers watching the Slayer, kind of like The Highlander's watchers who "observe but never interfere". Either way would satisfy me that the group of old men/watchers/shadowmen remained determined to keep the Slayer on their leash, a very important theme to maintain for the the continuity of season 7. Did they just forget about Buffy and Sunnydale for that one year?

Nov 5, 2008 21:40:58 GMT -5 wenxina said:

]My point with bringing in the Faith bit was merely that the Council may not have been aware that Buffy had died; if the line carries on through Faith, they would have no way of knowing that a Slayer had died, especially since there was an incredibly perky substitute.
If they had known... they would have been frantically trying to get an active Slayer and a Watcher over to the Hellmouth ASAP. Provided a new one was called, but as I said, I doubt there was one. Other ways to solve this problem: pull some strings to get Faith out of jail, pull some strings to bust Faith out of jail, or pull some strings to get Faith killed so that another Slayer may be called. None of which happened, leading once more to the conclusion that the just didn't know.

See, I'm thinking that Buffy dying might not have made a blip on the Council's radar but Giles *quitting* would have. So that's why I'm surprised that Giles could just up and leave with the Council not even trying to interfere (in anyway apparent to the audience). As for Faith, it's always surprised me how the Council never interfered with Faith's incarceration. I've read quite a few fanfics where she was poisoned or murdered in prison by an operative of the Council in order to activate the next Slayer that they could control. The fact that they never did this makes me think they accepted Buffy as the de facto Slayer even though the line no longer passed through her.

Nov 5, 2008 21:40:58 GMT -5 wenxina said:

On that note, Buffy et al weren't the only ones withholding information; the WC failed to inform her of the First's MO, even when it was very obvious to them. They were about to visit the Hellmouth when they were blown up. Which again leads me to believe that Giles was not in their employ at that time; if he had learned of anything, he would already have been in contact with the Scoobies at Sunnydale. However, it seemed that he learned of things the roundabout way (discovering a dying colleague, receiving the confirmation of his fears) and stealing the books. He must have probably heard rumblings... there was no reason to visit said colleague otherwise, unless it was for tea, and it just didn't seem that way. Encountering the Bringer was just affirmation to his suspicion.

Yeah, I think Giles wasn't being employed by them by season 7. I wonder when he officially quit again...

The Council was all about witholding power and information, weren't they? The more I think about this, the more it would make sense to me if they had operatives placed in Sunnydale who were spying on the Slayer. How else would they remain informed about the goings on at the Hellmouth? I mean, it's the Hellmouth. You don't just forget about that, especially when you're a controlling organization like the Watcher's Council. I wish they hadn't dropped the Council post-Checkpoint. There could have been some great storylines added in there with Buffy fighting their influence. It could have easily led to more grey areas for her, especially during season 6.

Nov 5, 2008 21:40:58 GMT -5 wenxina said:

But to bring this home to Buffy again, a reason for my love for her is the fact that even other such demanding pressure, she managed to evolve, to become a young woman in control of her destiny (well... it's a loose expression anyway), rather than a girl dictated by others. The fact that she was able to function, even without a Watcher telling her what to do gives her a certain autonomy that no predecessor ever had. She effectively picked her own Council when she graduated, and even when she could have clung on to Giles (like she wanted to in S6), she dropped him when she felt that his interests were no longer aligned with hers. It was a brave move, and as Giles must have seen in the end, the right move. He was the father figure, but he had to step back.

I think ultimately Buffy made it through Giles leaving and she would have been fine if her friends weren't under so many stresses at the same time. Willow succumbing to her power/magic hungry personality, Xander stressing about his wedding, Dawn's kleptomania. All these events in her friends and families lives, her chosen council as you put it, made her loved ones less of an aid to her when she really needed it. And conversely, she was less able to help them heal their problems because of her own damaged psyche.

I'm still not sure if I see it as the right move by Giles to leave. Why is it necessary to cross an ocean? Couldn't he have simply put his foot down and refused to act that way? Why not grasp her by the shoulders and give her a shake? Hell, why not even raise his voice? He didn't really even try to confront her on what she was doing until he'd already made the decision to leave. Again, I see Giles' departure more as beneficial for opening up the story to the angst and perhaps fear-based on his part. I don't think it was necessarily noble or completely wise. Yes, they survived that year without him (and we the audience survived it too lol) but I still argue that they'd have been better off with him there. One doesn't always have to learn through failure and suffering.

My point in a nutshell - when someone's hurt, you don't abandon them. His departure led to her continued downfall til she hit rock bottom. Was it necessary for her to go through that? We'll never know. But I'd like to think there was another way for Buffy to find her footing again, her strong independent self, besides going through the season 6 bouts of self-destructive behavior.

Nov 5, 2008 21:40:58 GMT -5 wenxina said:

Which comes back to Giles' leave of absence in Buffy's time of need. I think a big part of it was also because it was hard for Giles to see Buffy so frail and broken. His wanting her to "grow up" as you argued was probably a result of his want to see her whole and strong again, not weak like she was after returning from the grave. Was it weakness? Yes. But in a season of such basic character flaws, it was a rather nice subtle layer of gloom and doom. Was there even a moment of pure happiness in S6? Really? Bringing down the house with Spike doesn't count!

I think I'd rather that Giles just got really angry at Buffy and yelled at her, shook her out of her malaise. Again, I wish there were supernatural therapists for the Buffyverse. If anybody could use some psychotherapy, it's Buffy after coming back from the dead.

Hmm, happy moments during season 6? Well, I'd say the Dance of Capitalist Superiority comes in top on the list. A very short list.

[lmblack21]

Nov 5, 2008 22:29:58 GMT -5 wenxina said:

While I agree with you, that Faith could very well have been motivated by self-preservation in her concern for Buffy, I think a large part of it has to do with the fact that she was now in Buffy's shoes, having to make decisions (i.e. telling Giles what time they were going to move out in the morning), and feeling the isolation Buffy felt as a leader. Faith admits that she had always wanted what Buffy had (friends, respect, etc), but now that she had it, she wanted nothing more than to have Buffy right next to her right now. So that lends credibility to the thought that it's possible that Faith was genuinely concerned for Buffy at that point.
I do like your point that it was incredibly selfish of the Scoobies to kick Buffy out, but I think the original idea (which admittedly was kinda lost in the final cut) was for Buffy to actually leave on her own free will, because she couldn't sit around and watch them all do the wrong thing. I actually wish that had come out a little more clearly.

Well that's why Faith is the only one I give any points to. Because we DID get to see her long for Buffy, worry about Buffy, go after Buffy (initially anyway), apologize to Buffy, ask after Buffy, etc, etc.

We got to see her connect with Buffy, make amends with Buffy, finally understand Buffy etc, etc. She's the only one. Everyone else just got a bandaid over the problem.

Of course the progress that Buffy and Faith made in season 7 was regressed again in the season 8 comics, imo, but that's Whedon for you.

-Luc

[lmblack21]

I haven't answered any of the questions....bad me!

1.) What do you think was Buffy's most heroic moment?

Total toss-up between sacrificing herself in "Prophesy Girl" and killing Angel in "Becoming II" for reasons others have already articulated.

2.) What do you think is Buffy's greatest character strength (i.e. what is it that you love about her, that makes her a great hero, great friend, etc.)?

Two things - her emotions, when she really allows herself to feel them because, as she once told Kendra, "My emotions give me power! They're total assets." Because that was always so true and so evident.

Second would be her connection with her family and friends and the way she bucked tradition by having such connections.

3.) Was there ever a moment when you stopped liking her as a character?

Never stopped loving her but had problems connecting to her in season 7 when she did things like tell Wood that she'd let Spike kill him if there was ever a next time. But there was nobody who was right in that episode, imo and I had problems with every character - in that episode and in seasons 6 and 7, so...

4.) What are some of your favorite Buffy quotes?

God, there are so many....

From "Prophesy Girl":

"We saved the world. I say we party." (Season 1 but could have been any season - even 7 )

From "Amends":

"You're weak. Everybody is. Everybody fails. - Strong is fighting! It's hard, and it's painful, and it's every day. It's what we have to do. And we can do it together."

From "Becoming II":

"Me." - in response to Angelus' taunt. Gah. One word, so powerful.

From "Anne":

"I'm Buffy, the vampire slayer and you are?"

Honorable mentions, also from Anne...when Ken said, "That was not permitted" and she says, "Yeah, but it was fun." - loved it. Also her Ghandi quote.

"Never Kill a Boy on the First Date":

"If the apocolypse comes, beep me."

From "Becoming II":

"No, it doesn't stop! It *never* stops! Do-do you think I chose to be like this? Do you have any idea how lonely it is, how dangerous? I would *love* to be upstairs watching TV or gossiping about boys or... God, even studying! But I have to save the world... again."

From "Dracula":

"How do you like my darkness now?"

Her entire speech to the watcher's council in "Checkpoint"

A couple from "Restless":

"I am not alone."

"You're really gonna have to get over the whole ... primal power thing. You're not the source of me."

From "The Gift":

KID: H-how'd you do that?

Angle on Buffy's back as she walks toward the door. She doesn't turn or stop as she replies.

BUFFY: It's what I do.

KID: But you're ... you're just a girl.

Buffy pauses in the doorway.

BUFFY: That's what *I* keep saying.

There's tons more and I haven't even gotten into the delicious B/A shippy goodness!


Buffy's had some amazing fights through out seven seasons. What's your favorite Buffy fighting move?

Any time she does a flip. Love it.

Is there a Buffy mannerism you always recognize?

Not mannerism exactly, but I've always been a fan of her puns.

What's the worst (criminial, amoral, etc) thing you think Buffy has ever done? Was it justified (world savage, saving an innocent) or was it inspired by a character flaw?

Trying to kill Faith. Justified? Eventually it would have happened but it was certainly pre-meditated and done to save Angel's life. A lot of what she's doing in the comics.

What do you ultimately want for Buffy? If you were to fast-forward to the end of Buffy's life when she's a little old lady, what would her life story be (post-season 8)?

I want her to be truly happy and absolutely in a committed fully open relationship - one like we only ever saw with her and Angel. I want balance in her life whatever she chooses to do, I hope to have seen her truly explore all the options life has open for her and I want to see her connections to family and friends restored to more of what we saw in seasons 1-5.

-Luc

[wenxina]

Nov 5, 2008 22:38:03 GMT -5 Emmie said:

So maybe the imposed Watcher wouldn't have the same position as Giles because Buffy wouldn't allow it, but really what about the disservice to the Slayer history books? Those Watchers love their diaries and I can't imagine them just letting this alone. I see two possible story solutions - 1) a new character could have been introduced, which might have been very fun; 2) the Watcher's Council has a covert team of observers watching the Slayer, kind of like The Highlander's watchers who "observe but never interfere". Either way would satisfy me that the group of old men/watchers/shadowmen remained determined to keep the Slayer on their leash, a very important theme to maintain for the the continuity of season 7. Did they just forget about Buffy and Sunnydale for that one year?

I think it's possible that the writers kinda forgot about the Council for that odd year or so. It wasn't necessary to the plot... they served their purpose in S5 (as the source of info, as well as the catalyst for Buffy's epiphany), and there was no room for them in S6. At least not in the direction S6 went anyway.
The notion of writers keeping a log of the Slayers exploits was kinda forgotten between S5 (the ep with Spike recounting his past Slayer kills... Buffy and Giles were trying to find accounts of the last battles of Slayers) and S8. I mean, there was a nod at it with some of the Potentials taking notes (okay, fine, only Annabelle) when Buffy talked. But essentially, no real mention (unless I forgot something, which is highly probable) of the logs until S8, when Buffy's going through the books in ToYL. Again, I think it was conveniently forgotten.
What would have been interesting would have to juxtapose that kinda surveillance with the stalkerish fascination the Trio had with taking Buffy down... with their spying and all. It would have made for some interesting grey areas... but I think as a whole, S6 was already pretty grey.

Nov 5, 2008 22:38:03 GMT -5 Emmie said:

See, I'm thinking that Buffy dying might not have made a blip on the Council's radar but Giles *quitting* would have. So that's why I'm surprised that Giles could just up and leave with the Council not even trying to interfere (in anyway apparent to the audience). As for Faith, it's always surprised me how the Council never interfered with Faith's incarceration. I've read quite a few fanfics where she was poisoned or murdered in prison by an operative of the Council in order to activate the next Slayer that they could control. The fact that they never did this makes me think they accepted Buffy as the de facto Slayer even though the line no longer passed through her.

All Giles had to say was that Buffy didn't feel like she needed him anymore, but that communication with the Council would remain open, as long as they honored their end of the deal, and stayed out of her way. Again, a new Watcher would not have been feasible... Or maybe Giles was just taking their money anyway, and they had no idea that he had quit.
I was always wondering why they didn't do what those fanfics you referred to plotted out. But then I remember that the case of having multiple active Slayers at once is unprecedented, or at least that's what we're led to believe, and perhaps the WC have no idea how the mechanics work at this point. I mean, like Buffy, they could possibly believe that the Slayer line could still pass through her. Meaning that Buffy is the de facto Slayer, only because they don't know any better. Plus, active Slayer on Hellmouth (whether de facto, or not) is good enough. An instrument is an instrument.

Nov 5, 2008 22:38:03 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Yeah, I think Giles wasn't being employed by them by season 7. I wonder when he officially quit again...

The Council was all about witholding power and information, weren't they? The more I think about this, the more it would make sense to me if they had operatives placed in Sunnydale who were spying on the Slayer. How else would they remain informed about the goings on at the Hellmouth? I mean, it's the Hellmouth. You don't just forget about that, especially when you're a controlling organization like the Watcher's Council. I wish they hadn't dropped the Council post-Checkpoint. There could have been some great storylines added in there with Buffy fighting their influence. It could have easily led to more grey areas for her, especially during season 6.

See above for note on more gray areas... btw... you spelling gray in British now?

Nov 5, 2008 22:38:03 GMT -5 Emmie said:

I think I'd rather that Giles just got really angry at Buffy and yelled at her, shook her out of her malaise. Again, I wish there were supernatural therapists for the Buffyverse. If anybody could use some psychotherapy, it's Buffy after coming back from the dead.

Hmm, happy moments during season 6? Well, I'd say the Dance of Capitalist Superiority comes in top on the list. A very short list.

But Giles is human... and he ran. But he came back, and regretted leaving. But by the time they could have that conversation, Buffy was almost Buffy again. Certain things had kinda clicked into place, or kinda clicked. Which was good timing on his part I guess.

[wenxina]

Nov 5, 2008 22:45:36 GMT -5 lmblack21 said:

We got to see her connect with Buffy, make amends with Buffy, finally understand Buffy etc, etc. She's the only one. Everyone else just got a bandaid over the problem.

Of course the progress that Buffy and Faith made in season 7 was regressed again in the season 8 comics, imo, but that's Whedon for you.

-Luc

I disagree there. I think what finally came down between Buffy and Faith in the bedroom was kind of an uneasy truce. They were putting their differences aside, because they had swapped roles (once again, this time, just not physical bodies), and seen what it's like to be in the other person's shoes. But I don't think that all that history could be put down with just one Scythe-sharing moment. They fought together, yes, but certain things just come back.

I didn't see their fight in NFFY so much as regression, as a realistic exploration of their relationship, post-"Chosen". For Buffy, to be suddenly transported to a foreign place, and then have someone attempt to kill her, then have Faith seemingly protecting the said assailant by pushing Buffy out of a window, into the shallow end of a swimming pool... it's gotta set off some alarm bells. Faith not only tried to kill her before, but tried to kill her friends, her love, and her family. Then she stole her life and tried to get Buffy to take the fall. All in the past, but to have all those issues come out again is not regression, it's realistic. A lot more so than unwavering trust because of one battle (against a mutual enemy).

And for Faith... she still has inferiority issues when compared to Buffy. She's always the dark sheep, the second choice. She has not had a great hero experience to prove her worth to Buffy. As an audience, we know she's capable of it, since she pretty much saved Angel. But to Faith, she hasn't proven that she's worthy to Buffy. And having Buffy become the figurehead of the Slayer Army is just a big slap to the face... Faith was right there in the battle too. But then again, Faith's always been damaged goods, right from the get go, so her inferiority issues could possibly date further back anyway. But to her credit, she was saving Buffy from Roden when she pushed her out the window, and her actions were more reactionary than Buffy's... although the attempted drowning was pretty intense.

[vampmogs]

Wow, a lot of stuff to respond to. I won't directly quote because there's just too much to cover, so I'll just touch on things people have said.

Firstly, I got the impression the Council were aware of Buffy's death. In 'Flooded' Giles tells Buffy the first thing he did when he arrived in England was meet with the Council, given how he was unaware at that point Buffy had been resurrected I don't see what he could have possibly met with them for, other than to inform them of Buffy's death. It's also possible he informed them much earlier, after all, they'd been helping in fighting Glory so it'd make sense he'd tell them how it ended and how she's no longer a threat anymore.

In regards to Giles, I don't believe Giles ever was saying Buffy should grow up regarding her resurrection, it was mainly her guardianship over Dawn that troubled him. We saw in 'All the Way' and 'Tough Love' that Buffy tries to shrug her responsbility onto Giles, which isn't right. At the end of the day Buffy wanted legal guardianship over Dawn and she got it, she has to prove she's fit to be said guardian, not Giles. Giles is a Watcher, his job description never says anything about taking care of Buffy's family, most slayers didn't even have one.

In regards to 'Empty Places' and season six, I must say the deep resentment towards the Scoobies that Lucinda shows is disconcerting to me, mainly because we just view it very differently though.

Firstly, in regards to her line about Spike being the only one who's watching her back- I don't believe it's justified whatsoever and she has no reason to feel this way regarding Willow and Xander. If you take a look back throughout the seventh season all she got was their support. It was Buffy who treat them horribly at times. Xander stood up and supported her in 'Dirty Girls' which Buffy walked in on and got emotional from, Willow supported her after Buffy snapped at her and everybody else in 'Get It Done' and they never blamed her for what happened to Xander, they were just upset Buffy was all business and didn't want to keep Xander company.

Secondly, I do believe that Buffy/Faith established a nice connection again and it's one of few things I liked about season seven. Faith wasn't some devious bitca trying to steal Buffy's friends and duties, she's actually the one who a) says Buffy just needs to have a breather but she should still be leader b) follows Buffy out to make sure she's ok c) can't hide it from Wood that she's worried about her d) tells Wood that she wishes Buffy was here and e) stays behind the longest in 'Chosen' trying to get Buffy to come with her as Sunnydale collapses around them. If I had to choose Buffy acted wrongly around Faith more than Faith ever did around Buffy.

Firstly, Buffy welcomes her with a fist to the face, something Faith tries to smirk of which is pretty big of her, secondly she gets snapped at by Buffy when she tries to make general chit chat, she gets yelled at again by Buffy when she takes the potentials out and then gets hit Buffy *again* and still doesn't fight back when she admits she wanted to, and even after being beat on she still tries to stick up for her when the mutiny begins. And Faith doesn't make any personal jibes at Buffy in 'Empty Places' until Buffy makes sarcastic remarks about her, which is fair, Faith has a right to defend herself. So I'm sorry but Buffy treat Faith pretty badly in season seven.

In season eight, it was just unfortunate mis-communication and misunderstanding, neither are to blame. I can see Buffy's POV, it's realistic she'd react that way given Faith's history, but I also felt terribly for Faith because she was just trying to help Gigi and save Buffy from killing another human being, something that effects somebody irreversably, as Faith knows all too well.

In regards to "kicking her out." That's not actually what they ever intended to do, it's the decision Buffy made because as she states herself "I can't stay here and watch her lead you into some disaster." No one asked her to leave before that, Faith tries to stop her even. They wanted her to take a breather and give someone else a turn at being in charge, which was far given how hostile Buffy was getting towards anyone who dared challenge her ideas. Take a look at 'Dirty Girls' and her "I'm going in anyway" attitude when everyone around her was screaming "trap!" and she refused to listen.

And really, Faith was the wrong choice because not only did she not want to lead but she wasn't ready to lead yet. Someone like Willow or Xander should have tried, it was Buffy however who couldn't come up with a good reason why she was still in charge, her answer was "because I'm the slayer." I dislike Rona immensely in that scene but she had a point in rebutting with "but isn't Faith a slayer to?" Because Buffy's reason was just plain silly, a slayer was never a representation of leadership, they were the led, so it's no reason to claim authority over anyone else, and if it's the sole reason, people are right to wonder why Faith isn't in charge.

Buffy needed a breather in season seven by the time of 'Empty Places' it's evident in how she snaps at everyone and acts around them, when they question her decision making skills and say they don't agree she angrily yells "which is why you have to fall in line!" I'm sorry but at this point Buffy was hardly resembling the girl I loved, I think the Scoobs were right to be irked by the way she was acting and treating them.

What I didn't like about 'Empty Places' was that they were all to foolish to take Buffy aside separately and talk it out without the potentials looking on. I didn't like Anya's "you really do think you're better than us" line because that was too nasty and personal, and I wasn't a fan of how Buffy started attacking Faith for no good reason either, she had no right to do that and Giles was right to shut her up about it. It was all unpleasant, a terrible episode in my opinion, but I do see both sides of the argument, even if I think it could have been presented far, far better.

Buffy burnt a lot of bridges leading up to that episode. When Faith comes back to help she constantly snaps at her when Faith tried to make general chat with her, "why are you here!" and she punches her in 'Empty Places' which she had *no right to do* whatsoever.

She told Wood she'd let Spike kill him if he ever tried anything again which was so the wrong way to go about the situation.

She snapped at Giles and shut him out all the way leading up to 'LMPTM' it wasn't just that episode. Take a look at the start of the episode in Wood's office when she finds out Giles went looking for a stone to help Spike, she goes all suspicious and crazy for absolutely no reason, she should have been applauding Giles' initiative to actually bother to try and fix the problem, rather than naively pretending like the problem didn't exist which Buffy was most certainly guilty of.

And in 'Empty Places' she burns her bridges with Xander and Willow when they hope she'll stick around and play cards with them. Neither of them lash out at her but both are very upset when all she does is talk business about the First and Xander's medication.

Buffy still cared, we saw this when she was alone in her office and fondly looks at the picture of her Xander and Willow, but she didn't let anyone see that side of herself. You can't blame the Scoobies for not being mind readers, unlike them, as the audience we saw how she really felt deep down but they didn't, and all we'd seen is the Buffy they saw, I think a lot more fans would have sided with them as well.

I have high hopes for season eight though. Rather than keep all her problems bottled up Buffy actually went and talked to Xander about them which is a *huge* improvement on how she acted in season six and season seven, it's a return to a s1-s5 Buffy there. And even in Buffy's head Xander manages to snap her out of her funk when she says it's all her fault and Xander tells her not to go there because "there smells of you, you've been there so often." Willow also comes to be by her side in after she brings back Aiko's corpse, and I loved how she went and held Xander as he wept over Renee's death. They're all there for eachother and not bottling stuff up and it gives me hope.

[wenxina]

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

Wow, a lot of stuff to respond to. I won't directly quote because there's just too much to cover, so I'll just touch on things people have said.

I know, right? This is freakin' awesome... since it's been so long since we've actually had a real discussion about Buffy.

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

Firstly, I got the impression the Council were aware of Buffy's death. In 'Flooded' Giles tells Buffy the first thing he did when he arrived in England was meet with the Council, given how he was unaware at that point Buffy had been resurrected I don't see what he could have possibly met with them for, other than to inform them of Buffy's death. It's also possible he informed them much earlier, after all, they'd been helping in fighting Glory so it'd make sense he'd tell them how it ended and how she's no longer a threat anymore.

Thanks for pointing out that conversation... I had completely forgotten about it.
On the other hand, Giles may have withheld that piece of information from the Council... just telling them that Glory was dealt with. And possibly tendering his resignation.

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

Firstly, in regards to her line about Spike being the only one who's watching her back- I don't believe it's justified whatsoever and she has no reason to feel this way regarding Willow and Xander. If you take a look back throughout the seventh season all she got was their support. It was Buffy who treat them horribly at times. Xander stood up and supported her in 'Dirty Girls' which Buffy walked in on and got emotional from, Willow supported her after Buffy snapped at her and everybody else in 'Get It Done' and they never blamed her for what happened to Xander, they were just upset Buffy was all business and didn't want to keep Xander company.

True, except that Xander did lay that heavy guilt trip on Buffy, about not being able to see her plan, because maybe it was on his blind side. Buffy was on the defensive for the most part... who can blame her from all the guilt she felt, with the accusing looks people were giving her. Let's not lie... they blamed her for the fiasco. They doubted her ability to lead after that, and chose Faith over her, even though she had been the one trying her hardest to keep them safe (relatively speaking... throwing them into a vamp nest may have been a little hasty

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

Secondly, I do believe that Buffy/Faith established a nice connection again and it's one of few things I liked about season seven. Faith wasn't some devious bitca trying to steal Buffy's friends and duties, she's actually the one who a) says Buffy just needs to have a breather but she should still be leader b) follows Buffy out to make sure she's ok c) can't hide it from Wood that she's worried about her d) tells Wood that she wishes Buffy was here and e) stays behind the longest in 'Chosen' trying to get Buffy to come with her as Sunnydale collapses around them. If I had to choose Buffy acted wrongly around Faith more than Faith ever did around Buffy.

Firstly, Buffy welcomes her with a fist to the face, something Faith tries to smirk of which is pretty big of her, secondly she gets snapped at by Buffy when she tries to make general chit chat, she gets yelled at again by Buffy when she takes the potentials out and then gets hit Buffy *again* and still doesn't fight back when she admits she wanted to, and even after being beat on she still tries to stick up for her when the mutiny begins. And Faith doesn't make any personal jibes at Buffy in 'Empty Places' until Buffy makes sarcastic remarks about her, which is fair, Faith has a right to defend herself. So I'm sorry but Buffy treat Faith pretty badly in season seven.

I don't deny this... just that Faith had done a lot of wrong by Buffy too. I guess it was kinda interesting to watch them play switcheroo. Faith was definitely on her redemptive track (probably why she took so much crap from Buffy in the first place), but the reason she's on it was because of her previous transgressions.

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

In season eight, it was just unfortunate mis-communication and misunderstanding, neither are to blame. I can see Buffy's POV, it's realistic she'd react that way given Faith's history, but I also felt terribly for Faith because she was just trying to help Gigi and save Buffy from killing another human being, something that effects somebody irreversably, as Faith knows all too well.

Exactly. Which is why I said I didn't see it as a regression of their dynamic.

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

In regards to "kicking her out." That's not actually what they ever intended to do, it's the decision Buffy made because as she states herself "I can't stay here and watch her lead you into some disaster." No one asked her to leave before that, Faith tries to stop her even. They wanted her to take a breather and give someone else a turn at being in charge, which was far given how hostile Buffy was getting towards anyone who dared challenge her ideas. Take a look at 'Dirty Girls' and her "I'm going in anyway" attitude when everyone around her was screaming "trap!" and she refused to listen.

As I'd mentioned, while that was the intent of that scene... the final cut was a little more ambiguous about it. It's a valid interpretation that she was essentially kicked out of her own house, by her little sister, no less. Buffy may have stated that she couldn't watch them all go down, but it was Dawn who said "We have to be together... and you can't be a part of it" or something to that effect.

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

Because Buffy's reason was just plain silly, a slayer was never a representation of leadership, they were the led, so it's no reason to claim authority over anyone else, and if it's the sole reason, people are right to wonder why Faith isn't in charge.

You raise an interesting point here, and I think S7 effectively changed that perspective. About being "the led" that is. With the WC gone, there was no one to lead her anymore, so to speak. In fact, with the denouncement of Giles, she effectively got rid of anyone who could possibly lead her. Since the Fray series was written before S7, it kinda foreshadowed (retroactively, I guess... since the Fray events take place roughly 200+ years in the future) this change, as there, the Slayer did become a leader; leading the war against the lurks. Also, Buffy (the Slayer) did lead the graduating class of 1998(?) against the Mayor, and Buffy is pretty much the leader of the Scoobies. She can't be blamed for the lame answer, as Faith was never part of that dynamic, and it was probably more reactionary than thought-out. She has always been the leader because she is the Slayer. Well... it's not the sole reason, but it usually falls on her.

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

Buffy needed a breather in season seven by the time of 'Empty Places' it's evident in how she snaps at everyone and acts around them, when they question her decision making skills and say they don't agree she angrily yells "which is why you have to fall in line!" I'm sorry but at this point Buffy was hardly resembling the girl I loved, I think the Scoobs were right to be irked by the way she was acting and treating them.

The Scoobs were also not helping her. Willow with her magic issues (which were legit, but I'm just saying, from Buffy's exhausted POV, it was the equivalent of Willow just twiddling her thumbs), Giles going behind her back, Anya making snide comments, and some of the Potentials constantly questioning her (out of fear of death). You're right, she was petulant, and downright grating because she was exhausted. And anyone would be, if she was out every night, worrying about keeping the world, and a house full of young girls alive.

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

What I didn't like about 'Empty Places' was that they were all to foolish to take Buffy aside separately and talk it out without the potentials looking on. I didn't like Anya's "you really do think you're better than us" line because that was too nasty and personal, and I wasn't a fan of how Buffy started attacking Faith for no good reason either, she had no right to do that and Giles was right to shut her up about it. It was all unpleasant, a terrible episode in my opinion, but I do see both sides of the argument, even if I think it could have been presented far, far better.

I didn't like it either, but Buffy's lashing out at Faith was because she felt the sand shifting under her feet, and after a humiliating defeat, and the overall sense of helplessness, it wasn't what she needed. She should have taken Faith into consideration, sharing the burden... but Faith's irresponsible behavior (taking the girls out partying), and their trust issues from the past didn't help.

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

Buffy burnt a lot of bridges leading up to that episode. When Faith comes back to help she constantly snaps at her when Faith tried to make general chat with her, "why are you here!" and she punches her in 'Empty Places' which she had *no right to do* whatsoever.

Actually, while I don't think the punch was the best way to go, Faith did deserve something for her below the belt blow when she brought up Buffy's most recent failure. That was low, even if it was truthful. Just like you thought that Anya's comments about Buffy feeling that she was better were nasty and distasteful.

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

She told Wood she'd let Spike kill him if he ever tried anything again which was so the wrong way to go about the situation.

Actually, I thought it was pretty much the right way to go. Wood and Giles undermined her authority by going behind her back. At that point, Spike was her best fighter, and for Wood to jeopardize her mission because of his personal vendetta with Spike, that was unacceptable to her. And she made it very clear.

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

She snapped at Giles and shut him out all the way leading up to 'LMPTM' it wasn't just that episode. Take a look at the start of the episode in Wood's office when she finds out Giles went looking for a stone to help Spike, she goes all suspicious and crazy for absolutely no reason, she should have been applauding Giles' initiative to actually bother to try and fix the problem, rather than naively pretending like the problem didn't exist which Buffy was most certainly guilty of.

Would have been easier to trust Giles if he hadn't made his issues with Spike so clear. Again, not the clearest judgment on her part, but you can see where she's coming from.

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

And in 'Empty Places' she burns her bridges with Xander and Willow when they hope she'll stick around and play cards with them. Neither of them lash out at her but both are very upset when all she does is talk business about the First and Xander's medication.

Buffy still cared, we saw this when she was alone in her office and fondly looks at the picture of her Xander and Willow, but she didn't let anyone see that side of herself. You can't blame the Scoobies for not being mind readers, unlike them, as the audience we saw how she really felt deep down but they didn't, and all we'd seen is the Buffy they saw, I think a lot more fans would have sided with them as well.

But how hard was it to see that the reason Buffy couldn't stick around was because she couldn't stand the guilt of looking into Xander's face?

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

I have high hopes for season eight though. Rather than keep all her problems bottled up Buffy actually went and talked to Xander about them which is a *huge* improvement on how she acted in season six and season seven, it's a return to a s1-s5 Buffy there. And even in Buffy's head Xander manages to snap her out of her funk when she says it's all her fault and Xander tells her not to go there because "there smells of you, you've been there so often." Willow also comes to be by her side in after she brings back Aiko's corpse, and I loved how she went and held Xander as he wept over Renee's death. They're all there for eachother and not bottling stuff up and it gives me hope.

And this has been the high point of my day... debating... coz #19 is still about 2 weeks away (assuming the schedule doesn't change again). I guess to sum it all up, going back to one of Emmie's questions, there's a reason why I have never hated Buffy, even when she was at her worst, and S7 ranks pretty high up there with the worst of Buffy. And that reason is because her characterization has always been so multi-textured that you can always see where she's coming from, even if you don't necessarily agree with her.

[lmblack21]

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

In regards to Giles, I don't believe Giles ever was saying Buffy should grow up regarding her resurrection, it was mainly her guardianship over Dawn that troubled him. We saw in 'All the Way' and 'Tough Love' that Buffy tries to shrug her responsbility onto Giles, which isn't right. At the end of the day Buffy wanted legal guardianship over Dawn and she got it, she has to prove she's fit to be said guardian, not Giles. Giles is a Watcher, his job description never says anything about taking care of Buffy's family, most slayers didn't even have one.

I don't disagree that Buffy needed to be Dawn's legal guardian. But that's hardly the point. Giles wanted her to be better and be able to handle everything RIGHT AWAY. For EVERYONE. In spite of her, and I'll say it again cause it's important, suicidal depression. What kind of person who claims to love another like their own child, LEAVES them in the worst state they've ever been in? (Which I'm sure you'll agree is saying something when it comes to Buffy.) Was Buffy floundering? Yes. But the way Giles chose to handle it - or not handle it - was obscene and wrong, imo. It wasn't the Giles I knew and loved from seasons 1-5 and again, doesn't mesh with the way he was about leaving her for one week in season 5 because she was a little down about losing her boyfriend.

And the fact is that Giles has always acted like a father figure to Buffy, he has been happy to have that kind of relationship with her, also as evidenced in the 5 years previous. So you're right - it's not his JOB. I just thought it was his very great pleasure and privelege because he, you know, loved her and all. Buffy and Giles have never been a "normal" Giles and Buffy slayer/watcher relationship and it's one of the reasons I loved it so much.

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

In regards to 'Empty Places' and season six, I must say the deep resentment towards the Scoobies that Lucinda shows is disconcerting to me, mainly because we just view it very differently though.

Firstly, in regards to her line about Spike being the only one who's watching her back- I don't believe it's justified whatsoever and she has no reason to feel this way regarding Willow and Xander. If you take a look back throughout the seventh season all she got was their support. It was Buffy who treat them horribly at times. Xander stood up and supported her in 'Dirty Girls' which Buffy walked in on and got emotional from, Willow supported her after Buffy snapped at her and everybody else in 'Get It Done' and they never blamed her for what happened to Xander, they were just upset Buffy was all business and didn't want to keep Xander company.

Well, you're right that we view it VERY differently. I'll agree that saying that Willow and Xander and Dawn didn't have her back was wrong, though I get why she felt that way about Giles, sadly. And really, I only took that statement she made to be a pointed barb at Giles, I never really got the vibe that she included everyone. She said it to Giles only after all and in the midst of wondering out loud (rightly so) if Giles had sent Spike away in another attempt to kill him off. And while Buffy was at times, unnecessarily harsh, I still say that nobody else got called out on their actions which helped to contribute to Buffy's emotional and mental state.

If you look at the beginning of season 7, she has a great relationship with Dawn, Giles, Willow, Xander and is kind and supportive of the potentials. About mid-season it all goes to crap and for me, it's clear enough why that happened. So I cut Buffy a lot more slack.

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

Secondly, I do believe that Buffy/Faith established a nice connection again and it's one of few things I liked about season seven. Faith wasn't some devious bitca trying to steal Buffy's friends and duties, she's actually the one who a) says Buffy just needs to have a breather but she should still be leader b) follows Buffy out to make sure she's ok c) can't hide it from Wood that she's worried about her d) tells Wood that she wishes Buffy was here and e) stays behind the longest in 'Chosen' trying to get Buffy to come with her as Sunnydale collapses around them. If I had to choose Buffy acted wrongly around Faith more than Faith ever did around Buffy.

I absolutely believed that Buffy and Faith established a lovely connection in season 7 and agree that she was nicer to Buffy than a lot of her friends. But Faith was no angel, she certainly taunted Buffy on at least a couple of occasions and they had never had a chance to really deal with their past. I don't believe that Buffy acted wrongly around Faith either. But because I believed they were working towards a lovely connections is why I had a problem with the Buffy/Faith stuff in the comics. I was hoping for more forward motion instead of further regression. Alas...

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

Firstly, Buffy welcomes her with a fist to the face, something Faith tries to smirk of which is pretty big of her, secondly she gets snapped at by Buffy when she tries to make general chit chat, she gets yelled at again by Buffy when she takes the potentials out and then gets hit Buffy *again* and still doesn't fight back when she admits she wanted to, and even after being beat on she still tries to stick up for her when the mutiny begins. And Faith doesn't make any personal jibes at Buffy in 'Empty Places' until Buffy makes sarcastic remarks about her, which is fair, Faith has a right to defend herself. So I'm sorry but Buffy treat Faith pretty badly in season seven.

So disagree. The first time she hit Faith, I don't even know that Buffy knew it was Faith. All she knew was Spike was being attacked and she knew Spike was a good guy. Faith certainly snarked at Buffy more than once, including trying to get under her skin by taunting her about her connection with Angel and the magical mind walk. Hell, the script even talks about how Faith picks up on Buffy's annoyance over it and enjoys it. And considering the whole Buffy/Angel/Faith situation last time, well..

The second time...well let's talk about that, shall we? While Buffy was getting pummeled again by Caleb, Faith was taking the girls partying. AND Giles seemed to have NO problem with that even though he took Buffy SERIOUSLY to task for having a light-hearted moment with her friends earlier in the season. But Faith? Hey, she should do what she wants cause it won't be her responsibility if everyone DIES. No, that great honor is repeatedly and ad nauseum dropped on Buffy's slender shoulders for her to bear it alone. Was she angry at Faith? At Giles? Did she worry about the girls safety? And did Faith not taunt her again about people getting hurt and basically blaming that on Buffy? Yes. To all of it. So again, I cut Buffy some slack. Both were cruel - Faith with words, Buffy with actions.

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

In regards to "kicking her out." That's not actually what they ever intended to do, it's the decision Buffy made because as she states herself "I can't stay here and watch her lead you into some disaster." No one asked her to leave before that, Faith tries to stop her even. They wanted her to take a breather and give someone else a turn at being in charge, which was far given how hostile Buffy was getting towards anyone who dared challenge her ideas. Take a look at 'Dirty Girls' and her "I'm going in anyway" attitude when everyone around her was screaming "trap!" and she refused to listen.

Again, I say, how was this different than how Faith led in the very next episode? Only difference is, only Buffy gets bitched out and turned on because of it. And really, Buffy was only hostile towards Faith. Anya, the potentials and Wood (and I'd argue Giles) were hostile towards Buffy. And some had no right to open their mouths - Anya I'm looking at you.

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

And really, Faith was the wrong choice because not only did she not want to lead but she wasn't ready to lead yet. Someone like Willow or Xander should have tried, it was Buffy however who couldn't come up with a good reason why she was still in charge, her answer was "because I'm the slayer." I dislike Rona immensely in that scene but she had a point in rebutting with "but isn't Faith a slayer to?" Because Buffy's reason was just plain silly, a slayer was never a representation of leadership, they were the led, so it's no reason to claim authority over anyone else, and if it's the sole reason, people are right to wonder why Faith isn't in charge.

Actually, Buffy has pretty much ALWAYS been the leader. They have always looked to her for the plan and she usually is the one to come up with it. Buffy has never been a normal slayer who followed along with others plans - it's why she was a danger to the council. She made them follow her. Hell, even Giles followed her more often than he led. Suddenly in season 7 they doubt that same leadership? And I'll just point out again that she WAS RIGHT. SHE was. And Faith's plan was the one that got people killed. Where was the anger and bitter attitude towards Faith? You're right that Faith wasn't ready and didn't want it, but she at least understand after having it how hard it is. We all, as the audience saw how everything spiraled into chaos as soon as the leader, Buffy, left. Was Buffy wrong in how she handled it? Yes. But so were they all and yet only Buffy is ever called on it. Blech.

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

Buffy needed a breather in season seven by the time of 'Empty Places' it's evident in how she snaps at everyone and acts around them, when they question her decision making skills and say they don't agree she angrily yells "which is why you have to fall in line!" I'm sorry but at this point Buffy was hardly resembling the girl I loved, I think the Scoobs were right to be irked by the way she was acting and treating them.

And I think the scoobies, the potentials and the entire situation is what made Buffy act the way she did. So all I asked was some shared responsibilty. As you said, it takes two to tango and Buffy didn't magically turn into the general in season 7. She was pushed and prodded that way, every step of the way. And ironically? Her plan in "Chosen" was even crazier and less certain than the one in "Empty Places" and yet, magically, after Faith's leadership failed, they all DID fall in line and followed Buffy again. Fancy that.

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

What I didn't like about 'Empty Places' was that they were all to foolish to take Buffy aside separately and talk it out without the potentials looking on. I didn't like Anya's "you really do think you're better than us" line because that was too nasty and personal, and I wasn't a fan of how Buffy started attacking Faith for no good reason either, she had no right to do that and Giles was right to shut her up about it. It was all unpleasant, a terrible episode in my opinion, but I do see both sides of the argument, even if I think it could have been presented far, far better.

That's one of many problems. Yes, it should have been handled quietly, without the potentials or Wood - Anya should have been slapped across her face and EVERYONE should have taken a look at what helped lead them all to this situation instead of blaming all Buffy all the time for every last bit of it. She didn't go there alone.

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

She told Wood she'd let Spike kill him if he ever tried anything again which was so the wrong way to go about the situation.

I've admitted Buffy was so VERY wrong here. But they all were - Wood, Spike, Giles, Buffy. IMO, nobody was right in this episode. Ugh.

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

She snapped at Giles and shut him out all the way leading up to 'LMPTM' it wasn't just that episode. Take a look at the start of the episode in Wood's office when she finds out Giles went looking for a stone to help Spike, she goes all suspicious and crazy for absolutely no reason, she should have been applauding Giles' initiative to actually bother to try and fix the problem, rather than naively pretending like the problem didn't exist which Buffy was most certainly guilty of.

I disagree that she was shutting HIM out. I think it was the other way around and there are multiple examples of that in season 7. I also didn't see her suspicious of Giles getting the stone. Frustrated because they were still not agreeing about Buffy having the chip removed, but not suspicious of his actions.

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

And in 'Empty Places' she burns her bridges with Xander and Willow when they hope she'll stick around and play cards with them. Neither of them lash out at her but both are very upset when all she does is talk business about the First and Xander's medication.

I don't like that episode either but I didn't see her "burning any bridges" with them. I mean, really, if Willow can go evil and try to end the world (thus trying to kill Buffy and everyone she loves) and THAT didn't burn bridges, then I don't see Buffy's guilt and horror over Xander's lost eye preventing her from hanging out with them and pretending everything was okay doing that. And if Willow and Xander couldn't get that she WAS so guilt-ridden and horrified and yes feeling responsible, well they aren't the brightest bulbs in the box either. I'm not saying that Xander especially wouldn't have been hurt by Buffy's attitude, just that as someone who knows and loves Buffy, *I* knew what the problem was. I can't imagine they didn't.

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

Buffy still cared, we saw this when she was alone in her office and fondly looks at the picture of her Xander and Willow, but she didn't let anyone see that side of herself. You can't blame the Scoobies for not being mind readers, unlike them, as the audience we saw how she really felt deep down but they didn't, and all we'd seen is the Buffy they saw, I think a lot more fans would have sided with them as well.

Again, I disagree. She showed them all the time in the beginning. And again I ask, why didn't THEY try to reach her? You blame Buffy for pulling away, you give the scoobies a free pass because they aren't mind readers, but why couldn't they try harder to really reach her? Where was the Willow who went into Buffy's head to reach her when she went catatonic in season 5? Come on now....why doesn't SOME of the responsibility rest with anyone but Buffy in your mind? Why is it always up to Buffy to reach out and fix things between them? And really, after 7 years, if they didn't ge how much Buffy loved them, then they are idiots.

There were plenty of problems with Buffy and I don't disregard them - it's one of many reasons season 7 is the worst of them all, including season 6. I didn't like the way Buffy treated Dawn after the beginning of the season. I didn't like seeing her feel so responsible for Spike that she became rather obsessed about it (Oedipal tones aside, the way she treated Spike in season 7 was very much like how she was with Dawn in season 5 but it was out of place with Spike in season 7.) But there is enough responsibility for everyone to share in.

Nov 6, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

I have high hopes for season eight though. Rather than keep all her problems bottled up Buffy actually went and talked to Xander about them which is a *huge* improvement on how she acted in season six and season seven, it's a return to a s1-s5 Buffy there. And even in Buffy's head Xander manages to snap her out of her funk when she says it's all her fault and Xander tells her not to go there because "there smells of you, you've been there so often." Willow also comes to be by her side in after she brings back Aiko's corpse, and I loved how she went and held Xander as he wept over Renee's death. They're all there for eachother and not bottling stuff up and it gives me hope.

I hope you're right, but I'm seeing a lot of big problems still with season 8 which is why I won't buy them and only read them online now. Time will tell I suppose.

-Luc

[vampmogs]

Nov 6, 2008 2:29:31 GMT -5 wenxina said:

I know, right? This is freakin' awesome... since it's been so long since we've actually had a real discussion about Buffy.

I know it's wonderful.

True, except that Xander did lay that heavy guilt trip on Buffy, about not being able to see her plan, because maybe it was on his blind side.

*After* Buffy had already started lashing out at them, *after* he'd found out she'd made the accusation he hadn't been watching her back.

Let's not lie... they blamed her for the fiasco.

And in my opinion, I hate to say it, but they should. Because it was Buffy's ignorance in 'Dirty Girls' that resulted in the unfortunate plan. If she'd let people in when all of them, heck even *Spike* who Faith's completely right about in saying was whipped at this point, told her it was a bad idea and she just didn't give a damn.

They doubted her ability to lead after that, and chose Faith over her, even though she had been the one trying her hardest to keep them safe (relatively speaking... throwing them into a vamp nest may have been a little hasty

They wanted someone else to have a turn in charge, which is fair in my opinion. Because when you're leader starts ignoring any of your suggestions, when you're leader tells you that you have to fall in line with whatever you say, it's time to give that leader a breather and let someone else take over. The only failure on their part was choosing Faith, who wasn't ready.

I don't deny this... just that Faith had done a lot of wrong by Buffy too. I guess it was kinda interesting to watch them play switcheroo. Faith was definitely on her redemptive track (probably why she took so much crap from Buffy in the first place), but the reason she's on it was because of her previous transgressions.

Agreed. Buffy's hostility towards Faith is natural given her past crimes, but it doesn't necessarily justify it. Faith was trying to be a hero again and she doesn't need people beating her down and through their actions, trying to prevent that from taking place. Faith was damned if you do, damned if you don't.

As I'd mentioned, while that was the intent of that scene... the final cut was a little more ambiguous about it. It's a valid interpretation that she was essentially kicked out of her own house, by her little sister, no less. Buffy may have stated that she couldn't watch them all go down, but it was Dawn who said "We have to be together... and you can't be a part of it" or something to that effect.

Agreed. And for a long while I was extremely angry at the Scoobies and Dawn for this, but after further reflection I see it all very different, I see both sides, I see the wrongness in Buffy's actions, mostly I just am angry at the writers these days

You raise an interesting point here, and I think S7 effectively changed that perspective. About being "the led" that is. With the WC gone, there was no one to lead her anymore, so to speak. In fact, with the denouncement of Giles, she effectively got rid of anyone who could possibly lead her. Since the Fray series was written before S7, it kinda foreshadowed (retroactively, I guess... since the Fray events take place roughly 200+ years in the future) this change, as there, the Slayer did become a leader; leading the war against the lurks. Also, Buffy (the Slayer) did lead the graduating class of 1998(?) against the Mayor, and Buffy is pretty much the leader of the Scoobies. She can't be blamed for the lame answer, as Faith was never part of that dynamic, and it was probably more reactionary than thought-out. She has always been the leader because she is the Slayer. Well... it's not the sole reason, but it usually falls on her.

I still have never seen Buffy being "the slayer" as a reason for why her friends chose to follow her. Because traditionally it's not a title associated with leadership and intimately, I'd hope she's their leader because she inspires confidence in them, because she's their hero, and not because of a title she didn't ask for and sometimes didn't even want.

The Scoobs were also not helping her. Willow with her magic issues (which were legit, but I'm just saying, from Buffy's exhausted POV, it was the equivalent of Willow just twiddling her thumbs),

But as you say that's not Willow's fault, the First could channel through her anytime it saw fit as we saw in 'Bring on the Night' and used Willow to harm he friends. It's perfectly reasonable for Willow to be hesitant about wanting that to happen again, and Buffy's a little mean to be viewing her as a tool here and not understanding here a person.

Giles going behind her back, Anya making snide comments, and some of the Potentials constantly questioning her (out of fear of death). You're right, she was petulant, and downright grating because she was exhausted. And anyone would be, if she was out every night, worrying about keeping the world, and a house full of young girls alive.

Agreed it was a daunting task for Buffy.

I didn't like it either, but Buffy's lashing out at Faith was because she felt the sand shifting under her feet, and after a humiliating defeat, and the overall sense of helplessness, it wasn't what she needed.

Agreed, I think it's clear why she started attacking Faith but it doesn't mean she has a right to. Sure Buffy felt her position slipping, sure she felt humiliated but it doesn't give her the right to take that out on someone else, or mean Faith should just suck it up and have someone blatantly make mean remarks about her when she's done nothing in the moment to deserve such hostility.

She should have taken Faith into consideration, sharing the burden... but Faith's irresponsible behavior (taking the girls out partying), and their trust issues from the past didn't help.

I think both Buffy and Faith were wrong in how they handled the potentials. Buffy didn't let them have any fun, Faith let them have too much fun. Both don't work. Happily, Buffy seems to have found the balance in season eight, establishing a intimate connection with her slayers but also being able to switch to the authoritarian when needed. She even lets them party as seen in 'A Beautiful Sunset' which is great.

Actually, while I don't think the punch was the best way to go, Faith did deserve something for her below the belt blow when she brought up Buffy's most recent failure. That was low, even if it was truthful. Just like you thought that Anya's comments about Buffy feeling that she was better were nasty and distasteful.

Whilst it was a touchy topic I side with Faith more here than Buffy. Faith was in Buffy's bedroom, she witnessed everyone around her screaming "trap, trap" and she witnessed Buffy completely ignore their advice and go in anyway, only to be proven horribly wrong. Faith kept her mouth shut throughout all of that, in fact she was very cooperative with Buffy saying "point me where you want me" and trying to ease some of the pressure off Buffy by saying "drop me in the hornets nest what the hell." So when Buffy suddenly starts telling Faith how irresponsible she is, when Faith saw how irresponsible Buffy was but kept her mouth shut, it's natural she's going to say "look who's pointing the finger."

Actually, I thought it was pretty much the right way to go. Wood and Giles undermined her authority by going behind her back. At that point, Spike was her best fighter, and for Wood to jeopardize her mission because of his personal vendetta with Spike, that was unacceptable to her. And she made it very clear.

In my opinion Buffy had complete and utter double standards when it came to Spike. "The mission is what matters" if you're dealing with the potentials or Wood, but with Spike, nah. Buffy's happy to seemingly ignore the fact that the First tells Andrew "it isn't time for Spike yet" and the fact that Spike still had an active trigger, which if turned on would mean Spike would violently attack her friends, her sister or the girls she was trying to protect. That's unacceptable, and it's bullsh*t when Buffy tells Wood she wants Spike around because he's her strongest fighter. In 'First Date' Spike says to Buffy that he should get out of town after the revelation the First is planning something nasty for him, Buffy's response, "No" why? Not because she needed him as a fighter, she ruled that out when Spike says "you have another demon fighter now" it was because, in Buffy's own words "because I'm not ready for you to not be here." So the mission only matters when you're not Buffy, it didn't matter if Buffy had personal feelings for ya. Unfortunately for Wood, that wasn't the case.

Would have been easier to trust Giles if he hadn't made his issues with Spike so clear. Again, not the clearest judgment on her part, but you can see where she's coming from.

Giles had legitimately expressed concern that Spike was a danger because *he was.* Buffy hadn't done anything about trying to fix his trigger since 'Never Leave Me' thank god Giles showed the initiative to go looking for ways to fix the problem. 'LMPTM' was the first time Giles had even considered dusting Spike as a precaution and that idea didn't even enter his head until Wood propositioned him, so Buffy really had no reasons to suspect Giles earlier on in that episode.

But how hard was it to see that the reason Buffy couldn't stick around was because she couldn't stand the guilt of looking into Xander's face?

It wouldn't have been, if it hadn't been combined with general Buffy of 'Dirty Girls' when she completely ignores them, or 'Get It Done' during her "everyone sucks but me speech" when Xander even feels the need to remind her that they're still her friends. It's a combination of Buffy's attitude leading up to that, not just that one single scene.

And this has been the high point of my day... debating... coz #19 is still about 2 weeks away (assuming the schedule doesn't change again). I guess to sum it all up, going back to one of Emmie's questions, there's a reason why I have never hated Buffy, even when she was at her worst, and S7 ranks pretty high up there with the worst of Buffy. And that reason is because her characterization has always been so multi-textured that you can always see where she's coming from, even if you don't necessarily agree with her.

Agreed, and yes it's been fun. To set the record straight, I can see where you're coming from and I agree with a lot of it. Why Buffy acted the way she did is because, as you say, the stress of what she had to undertake that year. I feel for her in that regard, I understand it. But I'm taking the very Anti-Buffy stance in this particular debate to defend the Scoobies, who although Buffy's actions were understandable, didn't deserve the treatment I think she gave them at times that year.

Nov 6, 2008 22:44:18 GMT -5 lmblack21 said:

I don't disagree that Buffy needed to be Dawn's legal guardian. But that's hardly the point. Giles wanted her to be better and be able to handle everything RIGHT AWAY. For EVERYONE.

I don't believe he wanted to handle everyone's problems, when did he state such a thing? He didn't exactly leave her alone either, he left her with a group of people who cared about her deeply, he knows that.

Well, you're right that we view it VERY differently. I'll agree that saying that Willow and Xander and Dawn didn't have her back was wrong, though I get why she felt that way about Giles, sadly. And really, I only took that statement she made to be a pointed barb at Giles, I never really got the vibe that she included everyone. She said it to Giles only after all and in the midst of wondering out loud (rightly so) if Giles had sent Spike away in another attempt to kill him off. And while Buffy was at times, unnecessarily harsh, I still say that nobody else got called out on their actions which helped to contribute to Buffy's emotional and mental state.

I don't believe there's any reason Buffy had a right to wonder out loud if Giles sent away Spike to ambush Buffy. That's just crazy talk. Giles tried to have Spike killed because he believed he was a danger to Buffy and to the girls she was supposed to be protecting, he didn't do it because he was jealous of Spike or wanted Buffy without any back up- which we've both agreed she had regardless of wether Spike was there or not, and Buffy was silly to suggest such a thing. I agree with Rona, "I'm sick of your deal with this Spike guy." Because if she didn't mean what she said in 'Empty Places' and it was only meant to hurt Giles, why did she believed without Spike around Giles could ambush her? She obviously did feel as if he was the only one who'd stand up for her, and that's incorrect and nasty as she saw first hand, Xander sticking up for her, and Willow in 'Get It Done.'

If you look at the beginning of season 7, she has a great relationship with Dawn, Giles, Willow, Xander and is kind and supportive of the potentials. About mid-season it all goes to crap and for me, it's clear enough why that happened. So I cut Buffy a lot more slack.

I cut Buffy some slack, but I don't feel we should blame the Scoobies for how Buffy acted that season.

I absolutely believed that Buffy and Faith established a lovely connection in season 7 and agree that she was nicer to Buffy than a lot of her friends. But Faith was no angel, she certainly taunted Buffy on at least a couple of occasions and they had never had a chance to really deal with their past. I don't believe that Buffy acted wrongly around Faith either. But because I believed they were working towards a lovely connections is why I had a problem with the Buffy/Faith stuff in the comics. I was hoping for more forward motion instead of further regression. Alas...

I agree with Wexina I don't believe it's regression I think it's a natural evolution to where both women are at in their relationship.

So disagree. The first time she hit Faith, I don't even know that Buffy knew it was Faith.

I think it was pretty clear by Buffy's sarcastic "sorry Faith I didn't realise that was you" and remark and her smirk, it couldn't have been more clearer in my opinion. And why wouldn't she? Buffy would have had to see Faith and Spike trading blows long before she reached them from when she was patrolling the cemetery, I severely doubt she somehow managed to miss catching Faith's face the entire time as she made her way towards both of them. Besides, even Spike guessed it was Faith just from her appearance and how someone had described her to him, Buffy also knew Faith was arriving in town and was most likely the one doing the explaining, so she's smart enough to have guessed it was Faith even if for some bizarre reason she hadn't seen a glimpse of her face. Spike had never met her and had guessed it was her just by the clothes alone.

Faith certainly snarked at Buffy more than once, including trying to get under her skin by taunting her about her connection with Angel and the magical mind walk. Hell, the script even talks about how Faith picks up on Buffy's annoyance over it and enjoys it. And considering the whole Buffy/Angel/Faith situation last time, well..

That was *after* Buffy had angrily snapped at Faith saying "why are you here?" when Faith tried to make general small talk about the potentials, so in my opinion Faith's entitled to get a little back at Buffy when she's being barked at for no good reason. Remember that before this scene Faith was very ready to give Buffy her full cooperation, "point me where you want me" and didn't deserve the treatment she got from Buffy.

The second time...well let's talk about that, shall we? While Buffy was getting pummeled again by Caleb, Faith was taking the girls partying. AND Giles seemed to have NO problem with that even though he took Buffy SERIOUSLY to task for having a light-hearted moment with her friends earlier in the season.

That's not Faith's fault. Nor Caleb attacking Buffy or Giles and Buffy's argument earlier on.

And did Faith not taunt her again about people getting hurt and basically blaming that on Buffy? Yes. To all of it. So again, I cut Buffy some slack. Both were cruel - Faith with words, Buffy with actions.

I think the word "taunting" is a little extreme. Faith wasn't "taunting" Buffy about what happened to Molly, she was trying to make a point, taunting implies Faith got some kind of kick out of saying it to Buffy which isn't the case in the slightest, she was dead serious. Here Faith was getting yelled at by Buffy for being irresponsible when Faith feels she was irresponsible to send girls down into a trap all of her friends repeatedly cautioned her about, but Buffy chose to ignore anyway.

Besides, it's irrelevant really, whatever Faith does or doesn't say Buffy has no right to punch someone in the face as a response, she just doesn't. Faith doesn't deserve that kind of physical abuse and shouldn't be expected to just take it either. Faith used words, Buffy used her fist because what Faith said struck a nerve, which is pretty telling really.

Again, I say, how was this different than how Faith led in the very next episode? Only difference is, only Buffy gets bitched out and turned on because of it. And really, Buffy was only hostile towards Faith.

Because Faith listened to those around her, worked on plans with Giles. The trap was also far less obvious, they were just looking for weapons. Whereas everyone had clued onto the fact that the vineyard was a trap, and Buffy said, and I quote "I'm going in anyway." Which is why they were more angry at Buffy, because they tried to reach her but she wouldn't have any of it. And it's a mistake she's made repeatedly, she did it twice in season two.

Season two is actually interesting actually, because you ask why Faith doesn't get as much flak as Buffy and it's obvious really. In 'When She Was Bad' Xander, Willow and Giles all told Buffy that she'd be playing right into the vampires hands, she told them to butt out, went anyway and nearly got her friends killed. In response to that, Xander in particular was extremely angry at her, and he was justified in his response. Whereas in 'Becoming' the trap Angelus set was far less obvious and no one blamed her for falling for it. Same applies for season seven, they all repeatedly warned Buffy in 'Dirty Girls' that it was quite obviously a trap, she didn't care, girls died. No one could foresee Faith falling into a trap so they don't blame her for it.

Actually, Buffy has pretty much ALWAYS been the leader. They have always looked to her for the plan and she usually is the one to come up with it. Buffy has never been a normal slayer who followed along with others plans - it's why she was a danger to the council. She made them follow her. Hell, even Giles followed her more often than he led.

That doesn't prove Buffy's point that "because she's the slayer" it means she naturally has to be in charge. Buffy was in charge over the previous six seasons because Buffy *the girl* was a natural born leader, it had nothing to do about her being the slayer. If it did, Faith should have been able to lead just as well as her. So Buffy’s explanation “because I’m the slayer” is silly, because if that’s the sole reason why she should be in charge people are perfectly entitled to want to give Faith that very same opportunity. I agree with Wexina, it was a silly remark by Buffy because she just blurted it out.

Suddenly in season 7 they doubt that same leadership? And I'll just point out again that she WAS RIGHT. SHE was.

And yet she had no solid proof other than a gut feeling. And I'm sorry but after someone's just led you intro a trap that ended up with innocent people dying and someone having their eye plunged out, it's natural you're going to be more hesitant in following that person back to the very place you got your asses handed to you before, going on nothing but a hunch. The Scoobs asked for some evidence, that's not too much to ask given the circumstances. These are people’s lives at stake, and Buffy’s judgement only one episode earlier had proven to not always just be enough, so why’d they all risk being killed again when Buffy was relying on nothing but a hunch and no actual evidence?

And I think the scoobies, the potentials and the entire situation is what made Buffy act the way she did. So all I asked was some shared responsibilty. As you said, it takes two to tango and Buffy didn't magically turn into the general in season 7. She was pushed and prodded that way, every step of the way. And ironically? Her plan in "Chosen" was even crazier and less certain than the one in "Empty Places" and yet, magically, after Faith's leadership failed, they all DID fall in line and followed Buffy again. Fancy that.

Buffy isolated herself into that general position as much as anyone else did. She's the one who told Xander and Willow as well as the potentials that "from now on I'm your leader as in do as I say!" in which Xander had to remind her "but don't forget we're also your friends." And when other people did try and offer suggestions, Buffy cut them down, as seen in 'Dirty Girls' and in 'Empty Places' when Giles says "we're all clearly demonstrating that we are not all together on this" in which she replies "which is why you all have to fall in line." Ah why exactly? Because Buffy says so? Buffy didn’t want to share and work on plans together, she wanted people to fall in line with her plan, and that never works. Buffy’s plans have always been successful when she plans with her friends, we saw this in ‘Graduation Day’ in ‘Primeval’ and ‘The Gift’ where people all made suggestions that helped her win her battles. Angel when he tells Buffy Faith’s the Mayor’s human weakness, Xander and Giles when combined they suggested the enjoining spell in ‘Primeval’ and Anya in ‘The Gift’ when she suggested using the troll hammer and the Dagon’s sphere, the troll hammer in particular being paramount to Buffy eventually besting Glory in a confrontation.

In ‘Chosen’ Buffy blatantly asks the group “what do you think?” up in her bedroom, we also have that nice moment between Buffy/Giles when Giles says “if you want my opinion” and she replies “really do” which makes both of them smile, and sweetly Faith as well who got a kick out of seeing both of them make up. Before ‘Chosen’ that wasn’t how Buffy was acting, she was ignoring other’s advice and expecting them to do what she says and that kind of leadership doesn’t inspire respect from those around you.

That's one of many problems. Yes, it should have been handled quietly, without the potentials or Wood - Anya should have been slapped across her face and EVERYONE should have taken a look at what helped lead them all to this situation instead of blaming all Buffy all the time for every last bit of it. She didn't go there alone.

Yes but she did want to go there again *alone.* The other's didn't agree, they have that right. They didn't kick Buffy out of her failed plan in 'Dirty Girls' the confrontation started when Buffy wanted to go back to that place again on nothing more than a hunch, and got very pissed off when people were unsure of the plan. After that it spiralled into the conflict and the mess.

I've admitted Buffy was so VERY wrong here. But they all were - Wood, Spike, Giles, Buffy. IMO, nobody was right in this episode. Ugh.

Agreed.

I disagree that she was shutting HIM out. I think it was the other way around and there are multiple examples of that in season 7. I also didn't see her suspicious of Giles getting the stone. Frustrated because they were still not agreeing about Buffy having the chip removed, but not suspicious of his actions.

Actually I'd say it was very suspicious. How else do you interpret, "Spike? What about Spike?!" she was like a crazy woman.

And if Willow and Xander couldn't get that she WAS so guilt-ridden and horrified and yes feeling responsible, well they aren't the brightest bulbs in the box either. I'm not saying that Xander especially wouldn't have been hurt by Buffy's attitude, just that as someone who knows and loves Buffy, *I* knew what the problem was. I can't imagine they didn't.

Yes but unlike Xander and Willow *you* as the audience get to see Buffy when she's around the Scoobs and when she's not. We're fortunate enough to know her far better than everyone other character, we get a full picture Buffy, they'll only ever get half the picture.

Again, I disagree. She showed them all the time in the beginning. And again I ask, why didn't THEY try to reach her? You blame Buffy for pulling away, you give the scoobies a free pass because they aren't mind readers, but why couldn't they try harder to really reach her?

They did try and reach her on multiple occasions. They did so in 'Get It Done' in 'Dirty Girls' and in 'Empty Places.'

Where was the Willow who went into Buffy's head to reach her when she went catatonic in season 5? Come on now....why doesn't SOME of the responsibility rest with anyone but Buffy in your mind? Why is it always up to Buffy to reach out and fix things between them? And really, after 7 years, if they didn't ge how much Buffy loved them, then they are idiots.

Because in my opinion a lot of the problems between them are Buffy's fault, I'm sad to say. Buffy knows this to some extent, "people are always trying to connect with me, but I shut them out." She has a habit of it, she's her own worst enemy sometimes. It's linked to her "I'm all alone" issues which, I'm sorry, but are all in Buffy's head. She isn't alone, she's had people by her side who've risked their lives for her and her mission time and time again. And when you have someone who you love and who you've stuck by their side saying they're alone when you're standing right there, it gets to you. It happened in Ats when Angel says that Darla shouldn't have to be alone like he is, and Cordy, both angry and upset gasps "you're not alone." That attitude hurts the people around you and Buffy's had that attitude for a few years now, mainly since season six but beginning even a little in season five.

It even happened recently in 'No Future For You' when hurt by her convesation with Giles over the phone Buffy makes the comment that what other time is there but being alone? And I felt like grabbing the girl and shaking her. She needs to snap out of it, she wasn't alone in that moment but she feels like she is, she had both Xander and Willow standing side by side to her in that very scene, Willow asking if she's ok, Xander trying to make everyone give her some room and comfort her and yet she still starts with the "I'm alone alone" spiel. She needs to stop it now and get out of that funk, she was teleported back to her castle with her friends who love her.. in that very same moment Faith was alone in a pool feeling as if Buffy hated her, that Giles only cared about Buffy and that she'd just betrayed someone she was trying to help and yet Buffy's all alone? C'mon Buffy cut it out!

[wenxina]

Just wanted to point out that the trap laid for Faith wasn't any less obvious... they got some intel from a Bringer, and they go for it anyway. Same thing with Buffy; she got some info from stabbed Potential (her name eludes me right now), and decided to go in for the kill. Yes, it reeked of trap, but so did Faith's bait.
And for another matter, the Potentials did blame Faith for leading them into a trap. Amanda kept saying something about being "punished" for following Faith; implying that they were wrong to trust her. Faith just wasn't conscious long enough to start getting crap (she did blame herself, though)... the Scythe was already the Scoobies' priority, and next thing we know, 2000 Slayers!

To address a point lmblack21 made, while you may feel that the Buffy and Faith dynamic was either stuck, or moving backwards, I think there's plenty of room for that forward motion you're looking for in S8, seeing as Faith and Giles have been confirmed to make an appearance soon. I doubt it'll be a story just about them wandering the countryside playing counsellor, as NFFY was supposed to be the last story bit that actually deviated that much away from Buffy's story. Meaning, I'm guessing you're gonna see some more Buffy/Faith goodness. And I don't mean in the sack... methinks that while Buffy is now open to it, Faith still refuses to go "downtown".

[vampmogs]

Nov 7, 2008 1:33:00 GMT -5 wenxina said:

Just wanted to point out that the trap laid for Faith wasn't any less obvious... they got some intel from a Bringer, and they go for it anyway.

Yes but none of them all realised it was a trap, tried to caution Faith as best as they could and have her flat out ignore all of their advice and be stubborn about it anyway. In their eyes it was less obvious so they weren't hard on her like they were on Buffy. And the record, despite what happened in 'Dirty Girls' it's important to remember that they all still stuck by Buffy regardless, it's when Buffy wanted to *go back in there* that things got bad. She had no evidence, she just had a hunch, and they couldn't just rely on her judgement, it's what got them into strife the previous episode.

Same thing with Buffy; she got some info from stabbed Potential (her name eludes me right now), and decided to go in for the kill. Yes, it reeked of trap, but so did Faith's bait.
And for another matter, the Potentials did blame Faith for leading them into a trap. Amanda kept saying something about being "punished" for following Faith; implying that they were wrong to trust her. Faith just wasn't conscious long enough to start getting crap (she did blame herself, though)... the Scythe was already the Scoobies' priority, and next thing we know, 2000 Slayers!

Yup, both Kennedy and Amanda told Buffy they were wrong to follow Faith, that it ended badly and that they were punished for what happened in 'Empty Places.' Buffy reminds them both that it isn't Faith's fault and that it could just as easily happen to her, which is very nice of Buffy.

To give us some new questions;

1) Who do you think was most responsible for the breakdown of the Buffy/Faith relationship in season 3 Buffy or Faith? Or were they both to blame?

2) What do you want to see happen with Buffy's character in season eight?

3) Is Buffy someone you could be friends with?

4) Did Buffy ever like Anya?

[lmblack21]

Nov 7, 2008 1:10:39 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

I don't believe he wanted to handle everyone's problems, when did he state such a thing? He didn't exactly leave her alone either, he left her with a group of people who cared about her deeply, he knows that.

When he sang, "the cries around you, you don't hear at all" and the shot panned out to show people OTHER than Dawn. And then later, when she asked for help in saving Dawn, Giles flat out told her they were staying put and Buffy was going alone. Ah, there's that word again.....alone. She begged him to stay and he did what he thought was best and left her. When she needed him most. Is it really any wonder that their relationship would never quite be the same again?

And while he may have left her with people who deeply cared for her, NONE of them were trying to help her. They were all completely wrapped up in their own lives and issues. Which usually became Buffy's issues as well.

Nov 7, 2008 1:10:39 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

I don't believe there's any reason Buffy had a right to wonder out loud if Giles sent away Spike to ambush Buffy. That's just crazy talk. Giles tried to have Spike killed because he believed he was a danger to Buffy and to the girls she was supposed to be protecting, he didn't do it because he was jealous of Spike or wanted Buffy without any back up- which we've both agreed she had regardless of wether Spike was there or not, and Buffy was silly to suggest such a thing.

Sorry, disagree again. I don't see how you can say that Giles tried to ambush and kill Spike once (behind Buffy's back for her "own good" - I thought he left her so she could stand on her own two feet and make her own decisions and trust her judgement? Hmmm....) and then say it's crazy for her to wonder if he's done the same thing. He gave her reason to not trust him. Sad to say, but it's the truth. And no, of course it wasn't because he was jealous of Spike or wanted her left without backup - THAT is crazy talk. I agree that Giles did it because HE thought it was best, but breaking someone's trust (again) is bound to have repercusions. And haven't you been the one to talk about how bad and wrong Buffy was to constantly make decisions for everyone and just expect everyone to fall in line? Why should it be different when someone else does it to Buffy?

Nov 7, 2008 1:10:39 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

I agree with Rona, "I'm sick of your deal with this Spike guy." Because if she didn't mean what she said in 'Empty Places' and it was only meant to hurt Giles, why did she believed without Spike around Giles could ambush her? She obviously did feel as if he was the only one who'd stand up for her, and that's incorrect and nasty as she saw first hand, Xander sticking up for her, and Willow in 'Get It Done.'

When did she say she expected an ambush on herself? She expressed a concern that Giles was ambushing SPIKE - based on previous experience with the same. And there is plenty of reason to believe that Buffy absolutely trusted her friends. She even told Willow in "Dirty Girls" that she (Willow) was their most powerful weapon and that she trusted her to keep the girls safe. And it's not like she just dragged them into the vineyard with no proof. Hell, even Faith when she saw the manpower there, conceded that they had just found the "hornet's nest". She also had 2 teams, one including Xander that she called their "safety net". So she wasn't blindly ignoring the potential that it was a trap. But again, the truth of it all boils down to the fact that Buffy WAS RIGHT.

I will say that I agreed too and was certainly sick of Buffy's "deal with Spike". Sadly, that's how they set up that relationship in season 7 - Buffy was literally responsible for Spike. Just as Dawn was made from Buffy in season 5, this new Spike was made because of Buffy and she felt the guilt and the weight of that responsibility all year and it showed in how she treated him. She was like a caretaker to a child. Did it become too much? God, yes.

Nov 7, 2008 1:10:39 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

I cut Buffy some slack, but I don't feel we should blame the Scoobies for how Buffy acted that season.

I don't either. I blame the scoobies for their part in what happened. Because Buffy didn't end up where she was on her own. She was often reacting to others around her.

Nov 7, 2008 1:10:39 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

That was *after* Buffy had angrily snapped at Faith saying "why are you here?" when Faith tried to make general small talk about the potentials, so in my opinion Faith's entitled to get a little back at Buffy when she's being barked at for no good reason. Remember that before this scene Faith was very ready to give Buffy her full cooperation, "point me where you want me" and didn't deserve the treatment she got from Buffy.

But again, there is history. I know Faith didn't expect a warm welcome after their last "get together". And I still say Buffy wasn't as mean or rude to Faith as, say, Giles or Dawn. Initially, Buffy said to Faith, "Nice to have you back". And while she did defensively ask why Faith was back (again, hardly shocking, given their history), she also immediately backed down and said, "No, that's not what I meant. I'm...glad that you're here. It's good. Thank you."

The next time we see them together we see Kennedy thoughtlessly saying that Caleb rendered a slayer (Buffy) useless in just one punch. She is one of many who blame her for the deaths of potentials and Xander's injury. As if Buffy didn't already blame herself. Then Faith threw the vineyard in Buffy's face, and yes it was very much like taunting and not proving a point. Buffy questioned Faith on keeping the girls safe and as payback, Faith talks about how they weren't safe when they went to the vineyard. She was cruel. So was Buffy. So we disagree because while I can agree that Buffy was cruel, I don't give others a free pass when they're cruel too.

Nov 7, 2008 1:10:39 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

That's not Faith's fault. Nor Caleb attacking Buffy or Giles and Buffy's argument earlier on.

Never said it was Faith's fault. Merely pointing out how Buffy got to the emotional state she was in by the end. She was held to a totally different standard and degree of responsibility and she was always the one who paid for it most.

Nov 7, 2008 1:10:39 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

Besides, it's irrelevant really, whatever Faith does or doesn't say Buffy has no right to punch someone in the face as a response, she just doesn't. Faith doesn't deserve that kind of physical abuse and shouldn't be expected to just take it either. Faith used words, Buffy used her fist because what Faith said struck a nerve, which is pretty telling really.

Of course it struck a nerve. She'd had people telling her all year that people would die and she would be responsible. She would. Not the evil guys, but Buffy would be responsible. Was it "right" that she hit Faith? Of course not. But I don't think it was "right" of Faith to use words so cruelly either. Both hurt, one is just emotional while the other is physical. And while Faith didn't deserve to be hit, neither did Buffy deserve to be blamed so cruelly. Personally, I believe Faith said it because Buffy herself hit some nerves with Faith. That's what they both do so well.

Nov 7, 2008 1:10:39 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

Because Faith listened to those around her, worked on plans with Giles.

Oh really? Cause the way I remember it, she TRIED to have constructive dialogue but it was total chaos. NOBODY could agree. That is why you have a chain of command in army like situations. Kennedy actually believed that "those of us who have been here the longest should have more of a say" - which makes me laugh, considering Buffy's status, but okay. Xander suddenly believed that not everyone there should have a say at all, and Faith finally became general like - Buffy like.

Example 1:

KENNEDY
We also know that Caleb told Buffy that everything's going down at the seal. I think we should head—

FAITH
(cuts her off) Let's not get ahead of ourselves. So, we know we've got a lot of enemies. We'll start there.

KENNEDY
Faith, I'm sorry—

FAITH
(cuts her off again) I got this, OK?

Example 2:

GILES
Are you thinking of attacking the Bringers?

FAITH
Maybe, or... OK, we could kidnap one.

KENNEDY
(nastily) And what? Hold it ransom?

XANDER
(sarcastically) Yeah, I'll get the magazines and start ripping out the letters now. "Dear Mr. First, if you want your Bringer back... well, we'll be surprised because you got, like, 3 million of them. So please disregard this letter. Yours sincerely—"

FAITH
I'm saying we think about getting us a Bringer and making it talk. Find out info on the first and Caleb that way.

ROBIN
How do you think we should catch one if they don't want to be found?

KENNEDY
OK, I'm not sure this is such a good idea. Why try and get information when we already know about the seal? Why don't we send a team to the high school? Do some recon and—

FAITH
No.

KENNEDY
(sits back, raises eyebrows) Just like that? You're not even listening.

And my all time favorite:

KENNEDY
I thought things would be different now, but you keep shutting me down.

FAITH
Things are different, because now... (stands) I'm your boss. Look, you guys, I'm not Buffy. I'm not the one who's been on your asses all this time, but I'm not one of you anymore, either. I'm your leader, which means I go first, and I make the rules, and the rest of you follow after me. Is that clear? So, Kennedy, (points) back the hell off, and let me do my job, all right? (calmly) OK, let's get down to business.

Same thing Buffy got busted on for. But hey, she's not Buffy, right, so it's okay. She's not the leader just because she's a slayer, right? Oh wait....hmmm.

So it WAS Faith's plan, it WAS her rules, she brooked no arguments. And you know what Giles did? Something he didn't do once all year for Buffy. He backed her up and told her she was doing "just fine". Nice guy. Too bad he forgot how to be that way with Buffy.

Nov 7, 2008 1:10:39 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

The trap was also far less obvious, they were just looking for weapons. Whereas everyone had clued onto the fact that the vineyard was a trap, and Buffy said, and I quote "I'm going in anyway." Which is why they were more angry at Buffy, because they tried to reach her but she wouldn't have any of it. And it's a mistake she's made repeatedly, she did it twice in season two.

Okay, please explain to me how the plan with Faith was "far less obvious"? Because as I recall, the problem they had with Buffy's plan was, and I quote again:

Giles: And you're certain this is the best course of action? You don't even know what this man has of yours—if he, in fact, has anything.

And

Xander:An unknown man breezes into town, says he has something of yours. Buffy, this thing's got "trap" written all over it.

With Faith's plan we have this:

Faith: I'm saying we think about getting us a Bringer and making it talk. Find out info on the first and Caleb that way.

So Caleb (the unknown man) saying they have something that belongs to Buffy is more obvious a trap that kidnapping a bringer who works for the First and thinking HE would tell the truth about something? Sorry, not seeing that at all. The plans seem *remarkably* similiar, in fact.

Nov 7, 2008 1:10:39 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

Season two is actually interesting actually, because you ask why Faith doesn't get as much flak as Buffy and it's obvious really. In 'When She Was Bad' Xander, Willow and Giles all told Buffy that she'd be playing right into the vampires hands, she told them to butt out, went anyway and nearly got her friends killed. In response to that, Xander in particular was extremely angry at her, and he was justified in his response. Whereas in 'Becoming' the trap Angelus set was far less obvious and no one blamed her for falling for it. Same applies for season seven, they all repeatedly warned Buffy in 'Dirty Girls' that it was quite obviously a trap, she didn't care, girls died. No one could foresee Faith falling into a trap so they don't blame her for it.

Oh yes, Xander was justified in his response to Buffy making a mistake. The horror that a 16 year old girl could make a mistake. Of course, he should want her dead if any harm came to Willow because it was ALL. Buffy's. Fault. As per usual. In spite of all the times Buffy tried to keep them out of her slaying life in order to protect them. In spite of all the sacrifices Buffy made so they wouldn't have to. And yet, I didn't see Buffy or Xander try or threaten to kill Willow when she went evil. I didn't see Buffy threaten to kill Xander when his stupid actions *as an adult* in "OMWF" almost got Dawn taken to hell in his place. All I'm asking for is a degree of accountability on the part of others, since they are always so eager to get their pound of flesh from Buffy for every mistake she's ever made.

You say it's for these reasons that it's "obvious" why Buffy gets so much flak and Faith doesn't - and yet it was Faith who tried to kill them all, Faith who went evil and betrayed them all. That's a logic I do not get and am happy not to. And I don't agree that nobody could foresee Faith's plan being a trap. I certainly did. Her plan was just like Buffy's. Only Buffy's plan - when she went alone, ironically - was a success.

Nov 7, 2008 1:10:39 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

That doesn't prove Buffy's point that "because she's the slayer" it means she naturally has to be in charge. Buffy was in charge over the previous six seasons because Buffy *the girl* was a natural born leader, it had nothing to do about her being the slayer. If it did, Faith should have been able to lead just as well as her. So Buffy’s explanation “because I’m the slayer” is silly, because if that’s the sole reason why she should be in charge people are perfectly entitled to want to give Faith that very same opportunity. I agree with Wexina, it was a silly remark by Buffy because she just blurted it out.

And yet, that's why they always followed her. Because she was a girl AND a slayer and she had instincts that were more often than not right. Wouldn't it have been even MORE arrogant of her to say that people should follow her because she's Buffy?

Nov 7, 2008 1:10:39 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

And yet she had no solid proof other than a gut feeling.

No, she also had proof in the number of people Caleb and company had guarding the vineyard and in the words Caleb said - that he had something of hers.

Nov 7, 2008 1:10:39 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

And I'm sorry but after someone's just led you intro a trap that ended up with innocent people dying and someone having their eye plunged out, it's natural you're going to be more hesitant in following that person back to the very place you got your asses handed to you before, going on nothing but a hunch. The Scoobs asked for some evidence, that's not too much to ask given the circumstances. These are people’s lives at stake, and Buffy’s judgement only one episode earlier had proven to not always just be enough, so why’d they all risk being killed again when Buffy was relying on nothing but a hunch and no actual evidence?

And while that's valid, the way they went about it was not okay and never will be for me. Although, again, they did have evidence. The fact that Caleb was also there at the *vineyard* was proof as well. They WERE protecting something. They WERE trying to keep Buffy and the gang from getting access to something powerful.

Nov 7, 2008 1:10:39 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

Buffy isolated herself into that general position as much as anyone else did.

Because of how others made her feel. Because of the pressures Giles put on her. Because of so many things - which is, like I said, why I hold them ALL responsible and not just Buffy.

Nov 7, 2008 1:10:39 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

She's the one who told Xander and Willow as well as the potentials that "from now on I'm your leader as in do as I say!" in which Xander had to remind her "but don't forget we're also your friends." And when other people did try and offer suggestions, Buffy cut them down, as seen in 'Dirty Girls' and in 'Empty Places' when Giles says "we're all clearly demonstrating that we are not all together on this" in which she replies "which is why you all have to fall in line." Ah why exactly? Because Buffy says so? Buffy didn’t want to share and work on plans together, she wanted people to fall in line with her plan, and that never works.

See above. So did Faith. On every single point. I am your leader, you will do as I say. People demonstrated that they didn't agree but it didn't matter. Faith was the boss. She cut down other ideas. Why is it so bad when Buffy does it and so understandable and excusable when Faith does it?

And not to put too fine a point on things, but they were all BEGGING Buffy to tell them what to do. They were all waiting for HER to fix things, for HER to defeat the evil while often not contributing much at all - as she ALSO pointed out. She needed HELP and was getting damn little. It's no wonder she finally said she'd just tell them what to do. They couldn't do it on their own. What else was she supposed to do? Fall down and wait for someone else to make it all better?

Nov 7, 2008 1:10:39 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

Buffy’s plans have always been successful when she plans with her friends, we saw this in ‘Graduation Day’ in ‘Primeval’ and ‘The Gift’ where people all made suggestions that helped her win her battles. Angel when he tells Buffy Faith’s the Mayor’s human weakness, Xander and Giles when combined they suggested the enjoining spell in ‘Primeval’ and Anya in ‘The Gift’ when she suggested using the troll hammer and the Dagon’s sphere, the troll hammer in particular being paramount to Buffy eventually besting Glory in a confrontation.

I'd like to point out something that is often, I feel, overlooked in that conversation in "Empty Places":

Buffy: Look, I'm willing to talk strategy, OK, I'll hear suggestions on how to break this down, but this is the plan."[/b]

So she WAS willing to listen to suggestions but ultimately, she decides on the plan. That has always been the way. Even in the examples you listed.

Nov 7, 2008 1:10:39 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

In ‘Chosen’ Buffy blatantly asks the group “what do you think?” up in her bedroom, we also have that nice moment between Buffy/Giles when Giles says “if you want my opinion” and she replies “really do” which makes both of them smile, and sweetly Faith as well who got a kick out of seeing both of them make up. Before ‘Chosen’ that wasn’t how Buffy was acting, she was ignoring other’s advice and expecting them to do what she says and that kind of leadership doesn’t inspire respect from those around you.

See above. She was willing to discuss but she got ambushed and attacked instead. And then kicked off the island. And THEN nobody even seemed to miss her or worry about her safety. Not once. Talk about telling....

Nov 7, 2008 1:10:39 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

Actually I'd say it was very suspicious. How else do you interpret, "Spike? What about Spike?!" she was like a crazy woman.

No, she wasn't. *shrug*

Nov 7, 2008 1:10:39 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

Yes but unlike Xander and Willow *you* as the audience get to see Buffy when she's around the Scoobs and when she's not. We're fortunate enough to know her far better than everyone other character, we get a full picture Buffy, they'll only ever get half the picture.

I'll say it again. If her friends didn't realize after 7 years that she loved them more than her own life, they are idiots. I prefer not to think of them that way. YMMV.

Nov 7, 2008 1:10:39 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

They did try and reach her on multiple occasions. They did so in 'Get It Done' in 'Dirty Girls' and in 'Empty Places.'

I didn't see that.

Nov 7, 2008 1:10:39 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

Because in my opinion a lot of the problems between them are Buffy's fault, I'm sad to say. Buffy knows this to some extent, "people are always trying to connect with me, but I shut them out." She has a habit of it, she's her own worst enemy sometimes. It's linked to her "I'm all alone" issues which, I'm sorry, but are all in Buffy's head. She isn't alone, she's had people by her side who've risked their lives for her and her mission time and time again. And when you have someone who you love and who you've stuck by their side saying they're alone when you're standing right there, it gets to you. It happened in Ats when Angel says that Darla shouldn't have to be alone like he is, and Cordy, both angry and upset gasps "you're not alone." That attitude hurts the people around you and Buffy's had that attitude for a few years now, mainly since season six but beginning even a little in season five.

Again, I'll say this was never the case in seasons 1-5. Buffy was VERY open to them all emotionally. And while Buffy certainly pulled away some, the SG has at least an equal role in how their friendships and relationships played out. They often shut Buffy out, but only Buffy accepts her own responsibility in how things turn out. None of the others ever do, sad to say.

Ah well, I fear we'll never agree on these issues. Perhaps we should move on to a different Buffy topic? Since at least we CAN all agree that we love Buffy...

-Luc

[vampmogs]

I won't reply quote by quote but rather summarise my position on this whole debate, and will give my POV on both perspectives. First and foremost I want to make this clear, and repeat this one more time, I'm taking an anti-Buffy position here to defend the Scoobies, just as I'd take a pro Buffy position here if someone was criticizing Buffy to great extent. I feel that balance is important because in my honest opinion, I think the Scoobies have been given unnecessary grief here and feel the need to defend them, someone has to!

Buffy had it tough in season seven. For years she'd had the weight of the world on her shoulders but she'd never had to face seeing the faces of all those she was responsible for day in and day out. And that scared Buffy immensely, as she states in 'Touched' she distanced herself from the potentials because she didn't want to bare the heartache of loosing them. Unfortunately, that created a rift between Buffy and the girls and it portrayed her as a cold uncaring woman.

That’s also combined with the fact she was facing what appeared to be an unstoppable evil with odds stacked up against her unlike she could possibly imagine and she was, as she even states, “loosing territory to the First.” Like all wars, it takes a toll on those taking part in them and Buffy became emotionally and physically exhausted from the stress and the weight of it all.

So yes, I understand Buffy’s position here, I do, I sympathise with her but unfortunately I believe her mechanism of coping, that distancing herself from others caused unnecessary grief for her character and that extra hardship was unfortunately, in my opinion, self-inflicted. It’s understandable why she pushed away but it was the cause of her segregation from the others and she became more dogmatic in her approach with the girls, and unfortunately her friends.

Buffy and the Scoobies were first and foremost *family* and when Buffy adopted a militaristic approach to dealing with them, she too found herself closing off from those people.

Why I believe Buffy closed herself off whereas the Scoobies didn’t? Well firstly, Buffy admits as much. Secondly I can think of a number of occasions where they reached out to her, and in some of those occasions for whatever reason she gave them the cold shoulder.

Some examples of this include, after her “everyone sucks but me speech” Willow comes into her bedroom and reassures her she had to be tough, that’s Willow making an effort to come and see Buffy and reach out to her. Earlier Willow offers her help to Buffy in ‘Bring on the Night’ stating that she knows Buffy and although she’ll never admit it, or ask for it, she needs help. Buffy also walks in on Xander in ‘Dirty Girls’ telling all the potentials what an amazing woman Buffy is and in ‘Empty Places’ Willow reaches out to Buffy again, asking her to stay and keep Xander company. So yes, I do believe her friends reached out to her.

In regards to Faith? It’s always going to be complicated between these two, and I agree that Faith’s past is always going to burden Faith and how people treat her. That’s to be expected and unfortunately, a price Faith has to pay for her crimes. However, I feel Buffy was being extra snappy and far too temperamental with Faith; a result of her exhaustion and grittiness as the war took a toll on her. We see when Buffy’s had a chance to relax and re-group she and Faith got a long far better. I don’t believe Buffy had a right to hit Faith upon first seeing her, and yes I do believe it was made abundantly clear that Buffy’s “sorry Faith I didn’t realise that was you” was of course a fib and sarcasm, and an unleashing of pent up frustration Buffy had towards the woman. But that’s the first out of two punches she gives Faith in the short time Faith comes to *help her* and for whatever reason, that’s unacceptable. I feel Faith did a very good job at trying to support Buffy throughout her ordeal and Wood was certainly right in picking up Faith’s feelings of concern for Buffy, as was the First in telling her that she always wanted Buffy to accept and love her.

Yes Faith relapsed and snarked back at Buffy, but in my opinion it was always retaliation, and never did she begin the negativity which is why I’m inclined to take her side in regards to this particular season.

So that’s my opinion, I won’t go into the Spike drama because we actually more or less agree, we were both tired of Buffy and her obsession and sense of responsibility for Spike, it didn’t do the character any favour and there’s no point treading over that I feel.

So yes, maybe we should move on. New topic perhaps?

[cheryl]

Nov 5, 2008 21:42:03 GMT -5 lmblack21 said:

Nov 5, 2008 3:15:18 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

I personally think Xander does it more than Willow because Xander hero worships Buffy, which is adorable and justified given how heroic she is, but often ends up to higher expectations as you say, or greater disappointment when Xander finds out she's made a mistake (i.e sleeping with Spike in season six.) But Willow's a little different in my opinion, unlike Xander she sympathised and connected with Buffy about keeping Angel a secret in 'Revelations' and she tells Buffy in 'Bring on the Night' that she knows Buffy will never ask for it but that she needs help. So it's definitly more of a Xander thing.

You've touched on one of the major reasons I've always had a problem with the idea of Buffy/Xander. He puts her on a pedestal and when she doesn't live up to his high expectations, he often acts like a jerk to her - something he admits to in season 6 and acknowledges is probably one of the reasons she DOESN'T always share with him. And that is a trait he exhibited from season 2 all the way through season 7, sadly.



I couldn't possibly disagree more with this. The problem for me isn't understanding that Buffy needed to stand on her own a bit or that Giles needed his own life. It's that he chose THE ABSOLUTE WORST TIME EVER to make that happen.

This is the same Giles who worried in season 5 about leaving Buffy for ONE WEEK to go to England to get needed information about Glory because Buffy was a little down over her breakup with Riley.

Her dependence on him in season 5 was VERY minimal (she was clearly much more there for Dawn in season 5) and that was completely understandable given the severity of this loss of their mother.

But in season 6 he just utterly lost his mind. Buffy was SUICIDALLY depressed and he has just learned why and he leaves her?? Nuh, sorry, no amount of "Giles needs a life" (selfish at that moment, imo) and Buffy "needing to grow up" (ironic in the extreme) makes up for the horribleness of that arc for me. And if you remember his song to her in "OMWF", it's not just Dawn he rightfully expected her to take care of, he worried about all the "cries around" her she didn't hear at all. I'm sorry, why is Buffy responsible for all those cries around her and who takes care of her for once?

For God's sake, in retrospect, it's no wonder she left them all behind in season 2 - this is what they do to her when she tells them how badly she needs them - they leave. And considering Buffy's own absentee father and how much of a father figure Giles was (and by his own admssion and feelings) this was a huge betrayal imo to Buffy and the fans of Buffy and Giles respectively.

Yes, I'm still bitter.



I didn't actually even need an apology for them for all the reasons you mentioned. What irks me about THIS is that they have one meeting where they all vow to make things better for Buffy - and that's all that happens. Talk with no actual helping - no support. Everyone was falling apart themselves but really, would it hurt them all to chip in in SOME way to ease her burdens? She had so many....and one conversation about it with no follow up action is what made me have huge problems with the SG and Dawn's behavior in season 6.



Actually, prior to season 6 that was NEVER true. Countless examples abound to show that she DID open herself up. A LOT. It was season 6 and 7 that she started to close herself off and again, to me, the reason is pretty apparent.



Problem here again is that while Buffy is called on HER actions, nobody else's contributing actions were called on and nobody else had to face up to their own issues. I saw early on in season 7 a Buffy who WAS opening up. To Willow, to Dawn, to Giles, even to the potentials.

She laughed and joked and spent time with her friends...and was then royally told off by Giles who basically told her that her relaxed and carefree attitude was likely to get people killed. Did she close off after that? Well hell, who could blame her? Neither did Xander change even after "Selfless" though I had high hopes at the time he would, etc, etc.



But again, my problem is, did they ever really address this? Why she felt this way? They were all sure eager to point the finger at Buffy, to heap responsibility and control on her and not go out of their way to help her (what happened to the Giles who said they'd get through things together?) I dunno, Buffy may have contributed but at least she was dealing with it. Which is, once again sadly, way more than we EVER got from the rest of them.

Nov 5, 2008 3:15:18 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

I just wished they had shown the shooting script version of the mutiny in 'Empty Places' because it's far better. It brings up a lot of stuff like Jenny, and Willow and Xander get far more lines to help understand where they're coming from, there was also specific instructions to show both Xander and Willow look deeply hurt after Giles calls Buffy out on saying accusing them of no longer watching her back, which would have helped sell their POV a lot. There was also a great moment where Willow forcefully tells Kennedy to back off and leave Buffy alone, but regretably admit she needs a breather to rest.

I think the original script is worse, actually. God, I would have hated Giles even more than I did if that had aired as it was. Dawn too, actually. Probably Willow as well. Xander is the only one who I understood because he had just suffered a pretty big injury so I got it from him. The lack of action from him (and everyone else) afterward is a different matter though...

But really, how many times have they questioned her supposedly crazy intuitive ideas? A LOT, by the way. And how often is she right? And oh yeah, based on what happened afterwards, how was Faith's leadership ANY DIFFERENT? She decided on a plan, SHE made the choices and they all followed and people DIED. Who called Faith out on that behavior? Aside from Faith, nobody.

And beyond any of that.....who the hell are they to KICK HER OUT OF HER OWN HOUSE? Then comes after - there's Buffy, alone, ON THE STREETS with no place to sleep or have safe refuge and do they wonder where she went or if she was okay? The bringers and the First were roaming around, Buffy had previously been seriously wounded and almost killed and who brings up her safety? NOT ONE PERSON. Faith brings her up because she's suspicious of her and wants people spying on her. That's it. God, I hated them all so much at that moment. It was unforgiveable, imo. And Anya's words were the worst of them all. All of them talking about the price they've paid conveniently ignoring that it was ALWAYS Buffy who paid the most. Ugh. I'm getting ticked off just remembering that vomit-inducing episode and the aftermath of it.

Sorry for all the vehemence in my post, but such is my passion for this character - and my hatred for that path the writers chose to tread down.

-Luc

My goodness how I love you. I couldn't agree more with everything that you have pointed out. All the inconsistencies. Double standards. Cops outs.

Something I wanted to add to your comments was that after Giles returned in season 6 at the end he DID appologize for leaving. He was wrong and knew it. He asked for fogiveness and Buffy gave it effortlessly. Here is my favorite exchange/action of season 6.

GILES: I came as soon as I heard.
BUFFY: The Council?
GILES: The Council haven't a clue. About much of anything, really. (walking toward Buffy, leaning on the horse) No, there's an ... an extremely powerful coven in Devon. They sensed the rise of a dangerous magical force here in Sunnydale. A dark force, fueled by grief.
BUFFY: Willow.
GILES: I'd so hoped it wasn't her. (pauses) And then a seer in the coven told me about Tara. That's when the coven ... imbued me with their powers.
BUFFY: And sent you here to bring Willow down.
GILES: (looks at her) Buffy, what's happened here?
BUFFY: (pacing) God. I don't even know where to start.
GILES: Well, Willow's clearly been abusing the magicks.
BUFFY: (nods) She has. She was ... and I barely even noticed. Giles, everything's just been so... (sighs) Xander left Anya at the altar, and Anya's a vengeance demon again... (Giles looking shocked) Dawn's a total klepto ... money's been so tight that I've been slinging burgers at the Doublemeat Palace ... (looks down at the floor) And I've been sleeping with Spike.

Buffy pauses, looks up at Giles, looks as if she can't believe she just said that.

Giles stares at her. She looks away again, embarrassed.

Suddenly Giles starts laughing. He covers his mouth with his hand but can't stop. Buffy stares at him, pouty.

GILES: (trying to calm down) Sorry.

He bursts out laughing again. Buffy rolls her eyes, now just looks amused. Giles keeps laughing and slowly Buffy starts to laugh too.

GILES: (laughing) Duct tape?
BUFFY: (laughing) On their mouths. So the demon could eat them...
GILES: Because they were figments.

More laughing.

BUFFY: All of it! You, Sunnydale ... And I was just some nutcase in L.A.
GILES: (still laughing) Of course. Why didn't we see it before?

Slowly they stop laughing, and look much calmer than before. Buffy holds her stomach.

GILES Can you forgive me?
BUFFY: For what?
GILES: I should never have left.
BUFFY: No. You were right to leave. We're just ... stupid.
GILES: I know you're all stupid. (Buffy smiling) I should never have abandoned you.
BUFFY: No. Giles, you were right about everything. It is time I was an adult.
GILES: Sometimes the most adult thing you can do is ... ask for help when you need it.
BUFFY: Now you tell me.


See how easy it is for Buffy to forgive those around her? She doesn't point fingers, she doesn't demand answers. Giles needs her forgiveness and just like that, she gives it.

Because of the above interaction, what comes next in season 7 was unbearable for me as a fan. Giles leaves again, forgetting all about his sorrow in abandoning Buffy. He returns to throw the weight of the world on her shoulders. He criticizes, scolds and finally betrays Buffy in EP. The writers of that season, WHO AREN'T JOSS, turned Giles into a pod character. It was actually one of the few unforgivable things ever accomplished, imo.

I'm bitter about that too, so I share in your pain.