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Post by CowboyGuy on Dec 17, 2007 2:54:40 GMT -5
This image was taken from Season 4's ender, Restless. I'm sure you all remember... Anyway I was always curious to know first, if the letters were real, and second if it meant something. I took it upon myself to do some research of the latin language. And it's relation in the Buffyverse. Interestingly enough, this topic was mentioned in an article about Greek hero themes in modern day entertainment. They even showed this image and said that the inscription on Tara's back was that of Sappho 1, the invocation to Aphrodite. Interesting... So I looked that up, and -this- is the translated version of that invocation! Ornately throned immortal Aphrodite
Daughter of Zeus, wile-weaver, I beg you
With reproaches and harms
Do not beat down my soul
But at my call, you must come
My voice hearing, from afar
You gave ear, and leaving your heaven
Golden, you came to me...
...I ask for what my heart desires most
"And if she flees, soon will she follow,
And if she does not take gifts, she will give,
If she does not love, she will love
Despite herself
Come to me now, the harsh worry
Let loose, what my heart wants to be
Done, do it! And you yourself be
Mine."Interesting huh? It really foreshadows what happens to Willow in the future. She succumbs to magic, and uses it to control others...so much as to cast spells on others to make their worry go away/make Tara still love her (stop fighting). Am I th only one who find this ultimately cool? I mean Willow dreamt of painting this on Tara's back! |
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commandercool
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
DON'T PANIC![Mo0:37]
Posts: 744
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Post by commandercool on Dec 17, 2007 11:01:33 GMT -5
!
!
!
Wow. I had heard (on the commentary, I think) that this was a real Sappho poem that the makeup guy had researched for the episode, but I never really wondered what it said. Wow. I f$%^ing love the internet.
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Post by spikeluv13 on Dec 18, 2007 15:24:26 GMT -5
That's amazing. This is what really sets buffy/joss apart. The care and detail that goes into every single part of the show. I mean really, they could have just made designs on her back, as I am sure a lot of other shows/movies do. But no, it was researched and had a much deeper meaning. That part was what, 15-30 seconds? Not a huge pivotal part of the show (time wise..obviously had great meaning for fans) and there was that much thought and care put into it.....
amazing! and very interesting to read. Thanks for posting that CBG!!
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Post by sagewoman on Dec 18, 2007 16:29:29 GMT -5
Absolutely wonderful to learn. I agree, the difference is in the details. I hope that Joss knows how much we appreciate it and that finding these jewels of information are truly treasures to us.
Thanks to CBG once more.
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Lukee
Ensouled Vampire
Brilliant is my middle name tbf[Mo0:14]
Posts: 1,137
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Post by Lukee on Dec 20, 2007 8:18:53 GMT -5
I remember hearing about this on the Commentary but i never really though about what it meant.
I think it rocks that Joss and the team put so much though into each episode rocks.
Thanks for posting CBG XD
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Post by Rowan Hawthorn on Dec 20, 2007 18:21:40 GMT -5
The connection is in this part:
And if she flees, soon will she follow,
And if she does not take gifts, she will give,
If she does not love, she will love
Despite herself
Granted, it's not a *perfect* connection: Willow doesn't actually cast a love spell on Tara, but she does cast the memory spell to make Tara not be mad - despite herself.
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Post by CowboyGuy on Dec 21, 2007 7:04:54 GMT -5
Well it's a vague translation. And I didn't post the entire sonnet...although I did read it.
The lover, has been turned off by the narrator's actions does not want her anymore. In response the narrator turns to magic, calling upon the goddess of love to force the lover to return her feelings and do the narrator's will.
Basically the relation is that eventually Willow gets into the mindset that magic will solve all her problems, even if it means manipulating her loved ones by means of memory spells, etc. Just like Sappho.
And I like that Joss chose to include something that comes from the origin of the word/definition of lesbian. These women in the sonnet lived on the Greek island of Lesbos.
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Post by sagewoman on Dec 21, 2007 14:36:03 GMT -5
I think it's a coincidence. I don't. It would be just like Joss or his writers to think this up. In the interviews I have watched (on the Buffy DVD's) the writers really enjoyed finding and including this type of information - it was one of the things that Joss encouraged/fostered that I think made working with him the wonderful experience that the writer's talk about. The connections are too meaningful to be a coincidence. I love that we can do this - finding hidden meanings, connections, insights - this is one reason Buffy can live beyond the show. |
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Post by spikeluv13 on Dec 21, 2007 16:33:48 GMT -5
ya know mikey...its the holiday season...maybe just once we could all be happy and supportive of each other rather than down on everyone.....just a thought.
I think CBG is right, especially since willow was originially sup. to go dark in season 5, the very next season. But Joss couldn't let go of Tara yet, so he postponed. It is very similar to the poem. There is no way it was coincidence. Joss just happened to choose this particular poem to have with willow and tara and it happens to be a foreshadow of what was to come. If you actually study greek mythology this all makes sense. I did a thesis and a translation of the Sappho poems. It really really does fit perfectly.
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Post by CowboyGuy on Dec 21, 2007 17:23:35 GMT -5
Yes, but they contacted a professor from UCLA to get this section of the sonnet. They needed him to provide the proper alphabet for the Latin used in that time period. I think that for what the poem is, it fits the general idea/direction that Joss wanted to go with Willow. We know his original plan for Season 5, and we know it didn't pan out like it was supposed to. Ideas were pushed back, or dropped altogether! So I think this fits with what Joss wanted to do with Willow originally, with his ideas for Season 5. *Just another tidbit of info, they used the same professor for most Latin used in the show. They'd call him up and he'd translate over the phone...which can be a reason why -some- spoken Latin has not been pronounced correctly by Alyson Hannigan.  Check out this article, which mentions this same topic (I didn't make this up!), as well as other Buffy relations to Greek mythology: BtVS: The Greek Hero Revisited |
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Post by sagewoman on Dec 21, 2007 17:39:54 GMT -5
*Just another tidbit of info, they used the same professor for most Latin used in the show. They'd call him up and he'd translate over the phone...which can be a reason why -some- spoken Latin has not been pronounced correctly by Alyson Hannigan. I'm not sure that it is correct to say that Alyson mispronounced some Latin words. There is a lot of speculation among academics about the "correct" pronunciation of Latin words because the pronunciations have been influenced by the geographical dispersion of the language, mother-tongue of the people's speaking Latin and how time has worked to change the spellings and pronunciations. The evolution of the pronunciation of Latin terms and phrases would most be likely to be similar to the changes between "Old English" and "Modern English" which BTW is indeed different right now in some cases depending on whether you are an English speaking American, Canadian, Australian, or English (ie., from England). |
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Post by CowboyGuy on Dec 21, 2007 23:56:01 GMT -5
Well, it's all speculation. Kudos to you if you're right. You should ask Joss about it if you ever get to talk to him. Actually that's not a bad idea. He usually is in town for San Diego Comic-Con. I was lucky enough to meet him last year...and all I could think of was "Sooo...duuuuh is Satsu the one who kissed Buffy?" I feel so dumb wasting a question opportunity on that!! LMAO. He'll probably think I am a crazy fanboy for asking him this, but I'll love it!! |
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Post by sagewoman on Dec 22, 2007 2:48:03 GMT -5
Don't feel crazy - tell him you are asking on behalf of all of us fans who live too far away to go to the ComicCon..and hint that he'd be welcome in Canada!
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matthewblake
Respected Watcher
Is it bright where you are?[Mo0:0]
Posts: 588
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Post by matthewblake on Dec 23, 2007 11:42:56 GMT -5
Because this is from "Restless," I wouldn't even question that it has a deeper meaning or that it's foreshadowing future events. Everything in that episode was there for a reason.
Except for the cheese-guy, of course.
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commandercool
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
DON'T PANIC![Mo0:37]
Posts: 744
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Post by commandercool on Dec 24, 2007 0:34:06 GMT -5
He wears the cheese. It does not wear him. Unfortunately, the cheese will not protect us.
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lee
Common Vampire
Posts: 56
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Post by lee on Jan 4, 2008 1:45:21 GMT -5
It's not just a poem. It's also a love spell, so I can see some significance to it and Willow's later use of magic for manipulation and personal gain.
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