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Post by henzINNIT on Apr 10, 2008 18:09:52 GMT -5
...did that conversation between Dawn and Joyce mean in "Conversations With Dead People"? Seriously
I know it was the first.... but.... wha? Talk about half-baked. There is no pay off at all.
This bother anyone else?
Any other glaring errors that get on anyone's tits? Post here.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Apr 10, 2008 18:40:30 GMT -5
Season 7 was full of plot holes that bothered me, especially in Lessons with the talisman. "Now we just have to find out who put it there." Do we ever find out? Nope.
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Post by themaleslayer on Apr 10, 2008 18:41:34 GMT -5
Maybe we'll find out in Season 8  |
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artiswar
Novice Witch
Cool... what's a rogue demon??[Mo0:0]
Posts: 260
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Post by artiswar on Apr 10, 2008 21:32:48 GMT -5
I groan when the entire UC Sunnydale campus evaporates in Harsh Light Of Day so Spike can fight Buffy.
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Post by Wyndam on Apr 10, 2008 22:03:45 GMT -5
I groan when the entire UC Sunnydale campus evaporates in Harsh Light Of Day so Spike can fight Buffy. LOL! That made my day there. I think the same thing when I watch that episode. |
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Apr 10, 2008 22:05:22 GMT -5
To me, "Conversations with Dead People" is quite possibly the most overrated episode in the entire runs of both shows. It constantly gets mentioned on people's lists of best episodes, and I think it even got nominated for a Saturn Award that year, but...  Okay, the Buffy/Webs scenes (written by Joss) were outstanding. Classic Joss, all the way thru. Andrew/Jonathon were great, with all the awesome nerd humor you'd come to expect from them. But here's where the problems come in. The Willow scenes just don't work without Amber Benson. There's no reason within the story that makes any kind of logical or emotional sense as to why the First would take Cassie's form over Tara's. Amber didn't want to come back to play an 'evil Tara', and shame on them for not getting her to agree to do it before writing the scenes, just assuming she'd say yes. So when you watch it, you're just completely taken out of the fictional world, and confronted by the reality that it's Cassie not Tara simply because Amber turned 'em down. And then the Dawn scenes. It's not the First, because the First, being non-corporeal, couldn't move furniture around, or affect the environment the way this whatever-it-was did. The First also never went in for this insanely-scary approach with anyone else--it just kinda showed up and annoyed them, hence Buffy's suggested nickname of 'The Taunter'. Yet Jane Espenson, who wrote those scenes, says she believes it was the First. So either way, it's bad writing--not so much in this episode, as in the eps that followed it. Either it was the First, in which case it's bad for the inconsistent portrayal of the First, in regards to its abilities and approach, or it was Joyce or something else posing as Joyce, which would also make it bad writing, for never following up on it later in the season. But like hitnrun said, S7 was full of subplots that started and then never went anywhere, which is one of several reasons I think it's the worst season of the 7...  |
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Post by Emmie on Apr 10, 2008 22:20:38 GMT -5
Diablo Robotico, pretty much agree with everything you said about CWDP. Buffy/Webs scenes awesome, while the Dawn and Willow scenes just didn't work out right. The Dawn one could've have been explained by an ally of the first using magics to haunt her. But they just left it as one gaping, inconsistent hole. If Tara had come back, those scenes with Willow would've been amazing. Lost potential there.
It's almost like the first six seasons of Buffy praised us for a long memory of the minutiae (countdown to 530, recurring characters, Andrew "Tucker's brother", Cecily/Halfrek) then season 7 came around and the writers expected us to all have A.D.D.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Apr 10, 2008 22:38:17 GMT -5
Some other things about Season 7 I didn't understand:
Ok, The First did not want Buffy to get the Scythe, right? So why exactly are the digging it up? Why not just leave it in the rock? Also, why did The First let her leave with it?
How was The First all over the place in CWDP? It was made clear that the events were happening all at the same time, so how was it able to appear to Andrew, Willow and possibly Dawn?
The Seal of Danzalthar? Um, where the hell did that come from? Blood opens it and leads down to the Hellmouth, where The First's army is (how did that happen?), but what about all the other attempts. That demon-y thing came out of it in Prophecy Girl and The Zeppo, how? What opened the Seal? And then there was the Vahrall demons in Doomed. It just came out of nowhere, and also the amount of blood was inconsistent.
Now my head hurts!
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alycat7
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
I don't wanna be this good looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear - Spike[Mo0:4]
Posts: 752
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Post by alycat7 on Apr 10, 2008 22:53:46 GMT -5
I actually never noticed all these plot holes before now. I tend to just accept what the writers give us because the minute I start questioning season 7, is the minute I stop watching it altogether.
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Post by Emmie on Apr 10, 2008 23:06:08 GMT -5
Ok, The First did not want Buffy to get the Scythe, right? So why exactly are the digging it up? Why not just leave it in the rock? Also, why did The First let her leave with it? Yeah, Buffy would have never had the Scythe if they hadn't dug it up. But maybe the First wanted it to depower Buffy and Faith, since we now know that can happen. I'm retconning it into logical. As for letting her leave with the Scythe, maybe the First really could tell that a confrontation right then btn Caleb and Buffy would kill him. |
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Post by hitnrun017 on Apr 10, 2008 23:09:29 GMT -5
Ok, The First did not want Buffy to get the Scythe, right? So why exactly are the digging it up? Why not just leave it in the rock? Also, why did The First let her leave with it? Yeah, Buffy would have never had the Scythe if they hadn't dug it up. But maybe the First wanted it to depower Buffy and Faith, since we now know that can happen. I'm retconning it into logical. As for letting her leave with the Scythe, maybe the First really could tell that a confrontation right then btn Caleb and Buffy would kill him. Haha, I always retcon things too if they don't make sense, but I don't understand how the writers couldn't just take a couple lines to explain them. |
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Post by henzINNIT on Apr 11, 2008 11:58:56 GMT -5
I'm blessing you all.
Other season 7 guff, as we're on that season specifically haha:
The Amulet....
.... Guardians..?
The Seal... Needs repeating because it clearly wasn't there in the past.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Apr 11, 2008 13:57:28 GMT -5
How was The First all over the place in CWDP? It was made clear that the events were happening all at the same time, so how was it able to appear to Andrew, Willow and possibly Dawn? I'm always up for some good S7-bashing  , but that's one thing that never bothered me. Who's to say that the First wasn't powerful enough to appear in several places at once?  How about this? Once he arrived in town, why didn't Caleb march on over to Buffy's house and just wipe 'em all out? Even Buffy wasn't strong enough to stop him, and the First had already sent the original Ubervamp over to try to do that very thing, so why not Caleb? I don't need a reason that really makes any kind of sense, but I just wish the writers had given some sort of acknowledgment to this. "Oh, he can't hurt us here because the Spell of Flabotanum is protecting us" or something like that. Don't just leave us with this great, gaping plot-hole... Or this: What did the First intend to use Spike's trigger for? Considering how much time was spent on it--the better part of at least three episodes, I think--once he was de-triggered, it would've been nice to at least get a "Darn, now I've gotta re-draw some of my evil schemes" from the FE, but it didn't seem to really bother it that much or put much of a crimp in its plans, did it? |
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Post by Rebecca on Apr 11, 2008 14:17:11 GMT -5
I always kind of attributed the "redrawing" to the appearance of Caleb.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Caleb show up after Spike declared he wouldn't work for the first? (I'm thinking of the ep where the first as Dru was trying to get him to commit to his evil scheme).
I just don't see a scene with the First saying: "Aww... [censored!]. Now I gotta make up a new plan!" That's more of a Harmony line if anyone.
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Post by henzINNIT on Apr 11, 2008 14:19:43 GMT -5
By the time Caleb had arrived it would seem as though the first's plans had changed.
Original Plan - Use a triggered and partly controlable Spike, as well as a partly controllable Ubervamp to wipe out the slayer line. Wiping out the slayer line requires killing all the potentials and finally the slayers.
New plan - Spike was spotted too soon to be used effectively. Too many potentials and hard to track and kill. Caleb is discovered, and can be a greater weapon as he is a willing and intelligent servant. His job is to now fulfill the changed plan, uncovering the scythe to destroy the slayer line with it.
Or something.
I think Spike in "Lessons" was covering up the seal while the ghost/zombies kept Buffy away from the door. His initial job was to protect the seal, and the first also hoped he'd remain trusted by Buffy, so he could eventually be used to turn on her and any potentials kept with her.
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artiswar
Novice Witch
Cool... what's a rogue demon??[Mo0:0]
Posts: 260
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Post by artiswar on Apr 11, 2008 15:05:56 GMT -5
A dead person speaking through someone else because of certain limits is not unheard of in the Buffyverse. In Restless The Primitive had to speak through Tara at first, and in Afterlife the ghost had to posses people to speak. The way I took it is Cassie had to talk to Willow instead of Tara to make Willow feel inadequate about herself, because her soul is drenched in the blood of Warren in contrast to Tara's pure soul, and ultimately lead her to killing herself. This scenario is similar to what happens to Gun and Fred post Supersymmetry.
Furthermore, the poltergeist attaking dawn is an agent of The First, and her mother is The First itself, trying to weaken the bond between the sisters (which ends up paying off in Empty Places when Dawn helps kick Buffy out)
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Apr 11, 2008 15:06:46 GMT -5
Good Spike theories, both. But while I feel I'm intelligent enough that I don't want the writers to hold my hand and walk me through every step of the plot, I still don't want to be left to have to do all the work of connecting the dots myself, and in this case, I think that's exactly what they did...  |
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Post by Emmie on Apr 11, 2008 15:28:08 GMT -5
Exactly. All the previous big bads' agendas were made very clear while The First was just confusing, contradictory and vague. It kinda ruins the 'wow thats cool and diabolical' factor when you're busy scratching your head going 'what the...?'
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Post by henzINNIT on Apr 11, 2008 17:17:30 GMT -5
Yeah. And it's only a connect the dots because it was badly told. I don't believe for a second it was supposed to be complicated; it was just lazy story-telling.
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Smashed
Junior Vampire Slayer
[Mo0:3]
Posts: 908
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Post by Smashed on Apr 11, 2008 17:34:41 GMT -5
What other plot holes are there?
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