Just what in the HELL...

[henzINNIT]

Dawn knowing demon languages was pretty lame.

The slayer emergency kit that was somehow forgotten about because Wood wanted to keep it. Also pretty lame, although I can forgive that.

Wood knowing to come to Sunnydale for what again?

"From Beneath You, It Devours" is a nice sounding omen but doesn't really match up with the final villains too well.

The meeting with the botox's eye is impressive in its complete and total vague-mania.
- Why is this happening?
Buffy.
- What.. Why?
Cause she got un-deaded.
- Huh?
I don't know...

Just how in the hell did Spike get this trigger in the first place?

There's plenty of holes in logic too. The whole town is abandonned (except for Warren and Amy apparently) and the slayer army doesn't bother going to the army base in town? No point in the extra, free, and powerful firepower? There were smarter ways to fight off fleeing ubervamps than pit a couple of humans against them really wasn't there? Xander could have demolished the whole fooking building so there was nowhere for the turok's to escape.

[El Diablo Robotico]

The Dawn thing with the languages didn't bug me too much, because some people just have a wicked talent for languages, and can pick 'em up like that (*snaps fingers*). But I'll also admit that part of the reason it didn't bother me could be that I'm a big Dawn fan, so any little thing the writers could toss her way to make her character smarter or cooler, I'm all for that.

This isn't so much a plot-hole, but what purpose did Joyce serve in "Bring on the Night"? She wasn't the First, she just appeared in two of Buffy's dreams, and didn't seem to tell her anything really helpful. My own feeling has always been that it was a reaction caused by the Amber Benson thing in CwDP, where they decided they'd like to have Kristine back, and got her to agree to it before doing any of the writing... but then when it came time to actually work on the script, they couldn't come up with any real good stories involving her, and just kinda stuck her in there wherever...

[henzINNIT]

Good call on the dream Joyce... I'd forgotten about those bits, that's how pointless they were.

[ded1]

There were alot of things that annoyed me about S7[in fact,it's the only season that I can't watch as an individual season.I only watch it when I go through from the beginning] The one thing that got me the most though was the final battle.
I mean,Buffy got her butt kicked in one on one fights with the turok-han,even the ones that she did kill.So,the plan was to take 20 potentials(don't remember the actual number),make them slayers who were trained,but new to their power.Add a vampire(spike)with an amulet that they had no idea how to use(or even what it really does).Send them into the hellmouth to fight thousands of those Turok-han
To me,that was perhaps the stupidest big-battle plan in the entire 7 year run of the show

[henzINNIT]

^ haha nah that plan if flawless in my opinion.

Finally done blessing you all lol

[Joe]

Ahh. another part that bothered me, was Angel Season 2 premiere. "Judgement". At the end Angel is jousting with someone else and then fighting with a champion from the tribunal.....in the middle of a street! Cars are driving around it too. But no one decides to call the police or even use that street?

[Rachster]

maybe there was some sort of cloaking spell used?

[artiswar]

I'm pretty sure the plan was to stall the vamps long enough for the amulet to activate. Angel told her it was to play some pivotal role in the apocalypse or something to that nature.

[Emmie]

Here's something that's always bugged me about Buffy from Season 7 (yes season 7 big surprise)

In the opening scene of "Help", Buffy, Xander and Dawn are hiding in coffins in the mortuary to dust a single vamp. Seems fair enough scenario, but...

What in the hell would ever motivate Buffy to willingly get back into a coffin EVER? She had to crawl out of her coffin when she was resurrected and that was clearly traumatic for her.

Yes one could say that Buffy's gotten over her ordeal with being alive again by Season 7, but that doesn't seem like consistent characterization. After watching her cousin be killed by Der Kinderstod in a hospital when she was little, she's always hated hospitals. How much do you think she's gotta hate coffins after being brought back to life and buried alive?

When I saw her in the coffin in 'Help', I thought it was ludicrous that she would do that or that they wouldn't atleast show her being upset by having to do it. Writers dropped the ball on that one.

~Rant out.

[Rachster]

Apr 17, 2008 19:21:23 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Here's something that's always bugged me about Buffy from Season 7 (yes season 7 big surprise)

In the opening scene of "Help", Buffy, Xander and Dawn are hiding in coffins in the mortuary to dust a single vamp. Seems fair enough scenario, but...

What in the hell would ever motivate Buffy to willingly get back into a coffin EVER? She had to crawl out of her coffin when she was resurrected and that was clearly traumatic for her.

Yes one could say that Buffy's gotten over her ordeal with being alive again by Season 7, but that doesn't seem like consistent characterization. After watching her cousin be killed by Der Kinderstod in a hospital when she was little, she's always hated hospitals. How much do you think she's gotta hate coffins after being brought back to life and buried alive?

When I saw her in the coffin in 'Help', I thought it was ludicrous that she would do that or that they wouldn't atleast show her being upset by having to do it. Writers dropped the ball on that one.

~Rant out.

OMG i never thought of that before... no matter how long its been getting in a coffin and closing the lid has got to be tramatic..

Oh and i wonder what the mortuary and family thought when they found the empty coffin..
after all buff did stake the vamp.........

[El Diablo Robotico]

My issues with "Help" went much deeper than that...

[Emmie]

Do tell, Diablo. I love your longish posts. Grants karma as bribe for a long, well thought out post.

[El Diablo Robotico]

Well that's a boatload of responsibility to come flying out of nowhere. I'm actually not sure I have enough words to fill up a long-ish post this time. It boils down to two main things:

- I could not stand Cassie, either the character or the actress, and that made it very hard to give a flip whether she lived or died. If you're gonna build an episode around the idea of asking us to get invested in this character, then give us a reason to get invested in her. Not to be spoiler-y, but there was a character in "Fray" who had a much smaller part than Cassie did in just this one episode who's death affected me much more.

- Apparently the rest of the characters felt the exact opposite as me, because they barely knew this girl, yet when she croaks, they're all sitting around Buffy's living room acting as tho Tara just died--again. Dawn's actually crying, which was just a way over-the-top choice on the part of either the writer, director, or Michelle T. It felt like they were trying to manipulate the pathos and tug on our heartstrings thru the characters ("See! They're all sad about it, so you should be, too!") because they realized the script didn't quite accomplish that on its own.

And that's not even getting into wondering how it was the guys never noticed Buffy had infiltrated their group there at the end, hood or no hood...

[patxshand]

Apr 17, 2008 22:12:01 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

- I could not stand Cassie, either the character or the actress, and that made it very hard to give a flip whether she lived or died. If you're gonna build an episode around the idea of asking us to get invested in this character, then give us a reason to get invested in her. Not to be spoiler-y, but there was a character in "Fray" who had a much smaller part than Cassie did in just this one episode who's death affected me much more.

I think they gave us plenty reason to be invested in the character. Not only was she written well, but she was brilliantly acted by Azura Skye, who is all kinds of awesome. Most fans were really wowed by her character. I've seen a lot of people saying she should have been a permanent guise for The First after "Coversations with Dead People." For me, she was easily the best 'one-shot' guest star in the series, and "Help" was a sparkling moment in an otherwise monotonous season.

- Apparently the rest of the characters felt the exact opposite as me, because they barely knew this girl, yet when she croaks, they're all sitting around Buffy's living room acting as tho Tara just died--again. Dawn's actually crying, which was just a way over-the-top choice on the part of either the writer, director, or Michelle T. It felt like they were trying to manipulate the pathos and tug on our heartstrings thru the characters ("See! They're all sad about it, so you should be, too!") because they realized the script didn't quite accomplish that on its own.

Disagree again. When a young person who you go to school with--if you are friends or not, and Dawn was at least a passing friend, especially on the final few days--students of the school are usually very upset. Where I live, there's been a string of deaths in the Long Island high schools, and I've seen people who never even *talked* to the kids in question crying. As for the other characters, they're crying because they failed at saving a person, and--though they know it isn't their fault--they partially blame themselves. *shrug* S'what I got from it.

[El Diablo Robotico]

Apr 17, 2008 22:42:32 GMT -5 patxshand said:

Apr 17, 2008 22:12:01 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

- I could not stand Cassie, either the character or the actress, and that made it very hard to give a flip whether she lived or died. If you're gonna build an episode around the idea of asking us to get invested in this character, then give us a reason to get invested in her. Not to be spoiler-y, but there was a character in "Fray" who had a much smaller part than Cassie did in just this one episode who's death affected me much more.

I think they gave us plenty reason to be invested in the character. Not only was she written well, but she was brilliantly acted by Azura Skye, who is all kinds of awesome. Most fans were really wowed by her character. I've seen a lot of people saying she should have been a permanent guise for The First after "Coversations with Dead People." For me, she was easily the best 'one-shot' guest star in the series, and "Help" was a sparkling moment in an otherwise monotonous season.

Huh. Funny how different people can watch the same thing and have such vastly different takes on it, isn't it?

To me, that character had no depth, Azura Skye just annoys the crap outta me, and only the spectacularly-bad "Bring on the Night" keeps me from calling "Help" the worst episode in the worst season of "Buffy". I honestly think I cared more about the April-bot in "I Was Made to Love You", and felt worse about her death, than I did Cassie's.

And calling her the best one-shot might be damning with faint praise, too, because there really haven't been that many great one-shots on "Buffy"--certainly not when compared with "Angel" (when they found a good character on "Buffy", they tended to keep bringing 'em back). But I'd have to say Billy Fordham in "Lie to Me" would probably get my nod for that...

[Skytteflickan88]

Apr 10, 2008 18:40:30 GMT -5 hitnrun017 said:

Season 7 was full of plot holes that bothered me, especially in Lessons with the talisman. "Now we just have to find out who put it there." Do we ever find out? Nope.

My vote's on the First. Or an angry angry teenager who just wanted to hurt people.

[Skytteflickan88]

Apr 17, 2008 22:12:01 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

Well that's a boatload of responsibility to come flying out of nowhere. I'm actually not sure I have enough words to fill up a long-ish post this time. It boils down to two main things:

- I could not stand Cassie, either the character or the actress, and that made it very hard to give a flip whether she lived or died. If you're gonna build an episode around the idea of asking us to get invested in this character, then give us a reason to get invested in her. Not to be spoiler-y, but there was a character in "Fray" who had a much smaller part than Cassie did in just this one episode who's death affected me much more.

- Apparently the rest of the characters felt the exact opposite as me, because they barely knew this girl, yet when she croaks, they're all sitting around Buffy's living room acting as tho Tara just died--again. Dawn's actually crying, which was just a way over-the-top choice on the part of either the writer, director, or Michelle T. It felt like they were trying to manipulate the pathos and tug on our heartstrings thru the characters ("See! They're all sad about it, so you should be, too!") because they realized the script didn't quite accomplish that on its own.

And that's not even getting into wondering how it was the guys never noticed Buffy had infiltrated their group there at the end, hood or no hood...

i myself loved that episode and liked Cassie. And to see them sit there and cry over a girl they hardly new, that made me love Buffy and C/O even more, to see that they still had hearts of gold, although in the end of the season they were all forced to be tough and cold, especially Buffy.

And about the hoods... i just assumed that they were ignorant idiots, too focused on their victim to notice.

[Skytteflickan88]

Apr 10, 2008 22:05:22 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

But here's where the problems come in. The Willow scenes just don't work without Amber Benson. There's no reason within the story that makes any kind of logical or emotional sense as to why the First would take Cassie's form over Tara's.
And then the Dawn scenes. It's not the First, because the First, being non-corporeal, couldn't move furniture around, or affect the environment the way this whatever-it-was did. The First also never went in for this insanely-scary approach with anyone else--it just kinda showed up and annoyed them, hence Buffy's suggested nickname of 'The Taunter'. Yet Jane Espenson, who wrote those scenes, says she believes it was the First.
(

But wouldn't Willow notice that it wasn't Tara, since they know each other so well? i think the first played it safe so that it could fool Willow easier.

And about the First not being able to move furniture around, true, but let's ignore the very high possibility that the writers screw it up, and let's pretend that the fisrt ordered someone to move furniture around, a ghost or warlock perhaps. Perhaps the bringers has magic up their sleave. i mean, it is the Hellmouth.

[henzINNIT]

Apr 18, 2008 1:23:01 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

Huh. Funny how different people can watch the same thing and have such vastly different takes on it, isn't it?
But I'd have to say Billy Fordham in "Lie to Me"would probably get my nod for that...

Agreed completely in different opinions, because I think Billy Ford's character is the definitive example of a lazy actor. The guy slept through that episode until his dramatic revelation.

[spikeluv13]

so just rewatched the harvest. They talk about how "tonight definitely going to the bronze, No cover!" and then there is the bodyguard, taking money for cover. He is the first bitten by Luke. interesting..... was this off topic? I lost track of what the topic was....