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Post by buffysmglover on May 29, 2008 15:46:53 GMT -5
This thread is for all those who want to take place in a daily viewing and discussing of a randomly chosen episode of Buffy or Angel. The episode will be posted in the thread's title with the date, just in case someone views the thread before the next episode has been decided, as well as being posted below. After watching the episode, discussion can begin! What makes this different from plain old discussion is that this way the episode being discussed is fresh in your mind, making posts more knowledgable. 5.30.08 ( Need help finding this episode? Buffy: Season 5: Disc 2) Past Episodes5.29.08 |
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Post by buffysmglover on May 29, 2008 18:40:14 GMT -5
So, here's something interesting I forgot about. (ATF SPOILER COMING UP). The Circle of the Black Thorn wanted to look into adding Wesley as a member because he seemed most unstable, most likely to fall back to the dark side. Apparently Wolfram & Hart feel the same way, seeing as they're using him to get to Angel in the long run of After the Fall. Hopefully the end of the comic will show Wesley proving to everyone that he's not as unstable as he seems. His feelings won't always affect his business, relationships, and friendships.
Spike plays no part in the apocalypse? Or the shanshu? I'm not sure which. But that kind of gets me wondering how wild his story may not be in Spike: After the Fall.
"I want you, Lindsay. Really considering rephrasing that." - Oh, the comedy of Joss Whedon.
I forgot how much Illyria actually cried while lying to Wesley. That was really sad. Most will say that would mean Fred is still inside Illyria, trapped, but I highly disagree. I think it's more likely that Illyria's existance on the human world is simply affecting her and allowing her to develop emotions and feelings.
Angel says to Wesley, Lorne, Spike, Gunn, and Illyria that one of them will betray him. Spike volunteers, but Angel says "Wesley". From what follows in that quote it appears that Angel doesn't mean Wesley will be the betrayer, he was just getting Wesley's attention. However, I think it's very possible Angel knew that Vail would be too much for Wesley and knew that Wesley was most likely to betray him. By sending Wesley after Vail, could he have been setting Wesley up? But that would still leave Vail alive, and Angel couldn't have known Illyria would finish Vail herself (itself?). Angel's "Wesley" could also suggest that Joss new if he were to be able to return for another story of Angel, Wesley would be the cause of Angel's troubles in the new season/story/etc. And, if Angel's "Wesley" meant nothing, then maybe Joss still planned on new stories in which one of the five betrayed him.
Harmony: Sure, she betrayed Angel, but as he said Angel already knew she would, and she was not in the room with the six of them when Angel said one of them would betray him.
I am really focusing on betrayal tonight, aren't I?
Well, I await another post of which I will reply.
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Post by Emmie on May 29, 2008 18:52:11 GMT -5
I forgot how much Illyria actually cried while lying to Wesley. That was really sad. Most will say that would mean Fred is still inside Illyria, trapped, but I highly disagree. I think it's more likely that Illyria's existance on the human world is simply affecting her and allowing her to develop emotions and feelings. But its already been confirmed that Fred is still inside Illyria. I see Illyria as having no frame of reference for human emotions, so her feeling grief for Wesley I see as stemming from Fred inside her. I think it explains why Illyria is so attached to Wes, too. |
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Post by buffysmglover on May 29, 2008 18:54:57 GMT -5
I forgot how much Illyria actually cried while lying to Wesley. That was really sad. Most will say that would mean Fred is still inside Illyria, trapped, but I highly disagree. I think it's more likely that Illyria's existance on the human world is simply affecting her and allowing her to develop emotions and feelings. But its already been confirmed that Fred is still inside Illyria. I see Illyria as having no frame of reference for human emotions, so her feeling grief for Wesley I see as stemming from Fred inside her. I think it explains why Illyria is so attached to Wes, too. Wes is the only one that was interested in being around her, and it was because he missed Fred. She didn't choose to be around Wesley. He chose to be around Illyria. Do you mean the last page of ATF Issue 5? We don't even have anything saying that's not Illyria lying to him again! Has the preview for the next ATF come out, or what? First Night stopped us from finding out. I know I'll be sorry for my rudeness if Fred ends up being locked inside Illyria, but I am dead on it not being true. |
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Post by hitnrun017 on May 29, 2008 19:06:54 GMT -5
I do think Illyria did choose to be around Wesley, though. He was the first person Illyria went to when she had no where left to go. I also think Illyria cared about Wesley: Wesley mentions to her how Gunn is trapped in Wolfram & Hart's holding dimension and she goes and saves him, telling Wesley she'd "lie" to him and Illyria was also "concerned" about him during Not Fade Away. It could be Illyria having feelings, but it could also be part of Fred.
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Post by Wyndam on May 29, 2008 19:07:33 GMT -5
I always looked at the "Wesley" after Spike volunteers, as just simply Angel saying that it has to be Wesley to be the one to do it. In the Circle's eyes, Wesley has betrayed Angel before, and is capable of doing it again.
That's how Wesley is even able to get into the door of Vail, and also why he is the only one that could face him. While they all underestimated Vail's power, Angel didn't send Wesley there knowing he would die.
Angel understands why Wesley did what he did, and had forgiven him a long time ago (as far back as Season 4's "Ground State").
I believe if Wesley were still like he was in Season 4, then he probably would have just walked in and blown Vail's head off. Season 5 Wesley, on the other hand, wanted to chat with Vail, get into his head, and fight magic with magic. That is what got him killed, which I feel shows that you can never forget your past.
So I feel like Angel choosing Wesley to "betray him" was simply because he had no other choice.
I really love this episode though, and feel as if it was the perfect end to the series.
I don't want to talk about everything that I would quite yet, since this is a discussion, so I'll start with two points.
Spike's "perfect day" was absolutely brilliant. We have the fantastic set up that looks like he'll be starting a bar brawl, and then later we see him reading and finishing his poem to Cecily. Just outstanding. Spike is far from my favorite Buffyverse character (doesn't even crack my top 10 actually), but this scene was so brilliant and my favorite Spike scene across both series.
Secondly, I just love the "goodbye" between Angel and Wesley. Just a simple nod from Wesley, which I thought was great. What could they really say to each other? Wesley was/is Angel's closest friend, despite all they went through, and I thought it was a nice moment.
That's all for now!
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Post by buffysmglover on May 29, 2008 19:20:23 GMT -5
Spike's "perfect day" was absolutely brilliant. We have the fantastic set up that looks like he'll be starting a bar brawl, and then later we see him reading and finishing his poem to Cecily. Just outstanding. Spike is far from my favorite Buffyverse character (doesn't even crack my top 10 actually), but this scene was so brilliant and my favorite Spike scene across both series. Secondly, I just love the "goodbye" between Angel and Wesley. Just a simple nod from Wesley, which I thought was great. What could they really say to each other? Wesley was/is Angel's closest friend, despite all they went through, and I thought it was a nice moment. That's all for now! I didn't mean Angel hadn't forgiven him, just that, if the theory were more than that, Angel could have been preventing a future betrayal. Such a great Spike scene. And the poem was brilliant. Someday I hope Joss writes the one about Spike's mum's death that Spike was going to present next. I didn't even pay attention to it  . < How ironic that we're talking about Wesley aka Alexis and Willow aka Alyson is the sad smiley. |
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Post by Wyndam on May 29, 2008 19:32:01 GMT -5
I feel as if it has been more or less confirmed that Fred is alive inside of Illyria. If not, then why use the end of #5 as a 4 month cliffhanger? There'd be no point in doing that (besides pissing people off, I'd assume).
Secondly, (SPOILERS FOR ISSUE 6)
in Spikes First Night story, Spike finds Fred (surrounded by this weird fire circle thingy), who is crying for Wesley and wondering what is going on. Illyria would never do that. She simply wouldn't. Only Fred would do that.
Fred has to be inside of Illyria.
Brian may have confirmed it by now as well, but I am not certain about that.
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Post by Emmie on May 29, 2008 19:34:09 GMT -5
But its already been confirmed that Fred is still inside Illyria. I see Illyria as having no frame of reference for human emotions, so her feeling grief for Wesley I see as stemming from Fred inside her. I think it explains why Illyria is so attached to Wes, too. Wes is the only one that was interested in being around her, and it was because he missed Fred. She didn't choose to be around Wesley. He chose to be around Illyria. Do you mean the last page of ATF Issue 5? We don't even have anything saying that's not Illyria lying to him again! Has the preview for the next ATF come out, or what? First Night stopped us from finding out. I know I'll be sorry for my rudeness if Fred ends up being locked inside Illyria, but I am dead on it not being true. Brian Lynch has confirmed that its really Fred that's emerging. Plus this was Joss' original plan for Season 6 of AtS and it was the first outline Joss gave Lynch for how After the Fall would play out. It is Fred - no speculation needed. |
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Post by buffysmglover on May 29, 2008 19:45:37 GMT -5
All that does for me is make me feel bad for Fred and Wesley.
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