3rd slayer

[drusillacakes]

Jul 28, 2009 22:08:57 GMT -5 Zombierella said:

Another thing that confuses me is in Season 5 Episode 1: Buffy VS Dracula, Dracula knows Buffy as THE vampire slayer. But does he know about Faith? You'd assume he would, But even so, Does he know that Faith is actually the "real" chosen one, and technically Buffy should be dead?

Maybe Dracula doesn't get out much? He still gets mail by horseback? Or perhaps Buffy just has more of a history. She's kind of legendary among demons and vamps, so it's more rewarding to take her out. Just my opinion.

Also, I'm just throwing this out there, since we have all these new Slayers now, could there ever be another 'Chosen One'? Does it mean the natural line ends with Faith? Or does it continue in that anytime ANY slayer dies, another one is called?

[Zombierella]

Good question. I was going to post a question simular to that myself! It seems to me that a new Slayer would only be called if the "chosen one" has died. After all, Kendra and Faith are concidered chosen ones since they were both called because of the death of the other.

Maybe I'm wrong though. Like I said, Because of Buffy's death, and return the entire slayer line is a little messy. I'm a little suprised that even though the watchers council knew that Buffy was alive and well again that they didn't take care of the other slayers called after her. Mainly with Kendra. Think about it. Kendra was called after Buffy died in season 1. So from Seasons 1-3 Kendra must have been concidered the chosen one due to Buffy's death in Prophecy Girl. This means that the watchers council had all that time to sort things out and they never did. You would think that with an organization that is so hell bent on doing things by the book that they would have had something to say about the matter!

[buffystar]

I've always felt bad for Kendra. She was always the lesser known compared to Buffy and Faith. It seems kinda weird how she's never mentioned again after her death, unless you count how Cordy explains how she got it how Faith was called in "Bad Girls".

If Faith dies then their could be a possiblity of having a new "chosen one". Take Soledad, a new Slayer who wasn't activated until her 16th birthday, which was about 2 years after the activation of all Potentials. Maybe Willow's spell created new potentials. Buffy said it herself. There's 1800 Slayers in the world. Who knows how many Potentials still exist that they don't know about.

[gumgnome]

I guess people refer to Buffy as THE Slayer just because she's way more badass than Kendra or Faith. The forces of darkness killed her twice and she still didn't stay down. She's tasted death and still fights on.
While it's true that the presence of another Slayer means that she is not the only Slayer around, I still think she and pretty much all the nasties in the world think of her as the reigning queen.

[Lukee]

B will be classed as the chosen one still because shes one of the greatest slayers ever.
=died twice
=saved the world more then 6 times
=almost every demon alive knows of her
=closed a hellmouth
=helped give the world more then 1800 slayers
the list goes on.

I think the list above is the reason Buffy is called THE slayer. To be fair Faith has been rouge, gone to jail and teamed up with a giant snake. So the demon world is hardly going to class Faith as THE slayer when shes been on the side of evil for a while.

If you where a demon who would you rather fear Buffy or Faith who once fought on the side of evil?

[wenxina]

Why is it surprising that Dracula knows of Buffy as the Slayer? Even the First in S7 specifically referred to her as the "one of a kind, accept no substitutes Slayer" or something to that effect. Girl's famous.

[AndrewCrossett]

Jul 30, 2009 8:57:47 GMT -5 wenxina said:

Why is it surprising that Dracula knows of Buffy as the Slayer? Even the First in S7 specifically referred to her as the "one of a kind, accept no substitutes Slayer" or something to that effect. Girl's famous.

And yet in "Welcome to the Hellmouth," she was a complete unknown. Even old, experienced vamps like Darla and Luke had no clue at first who she was, even after she started dusting the minions.

Buffy became famous among vamps and demons... more famous than previous Slayers... over the course of 8 seasons, because she's the best, most successful, and possibly longest-lived Slayer ever.

[wenxina]

Jul 30, 2009 10:33:17 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

And yet in "Welcome to the Hellmouth," she was a complete unknown. Even old, experienced vamps like Darla and Luke had no clue at first who she was, even after she started dusting the minions.

Not sure that this is a counterpoint. I wasn't arguing that Buffy was already badass from the start, just that even powerful foes recognize her as the Slayer because of the rep she's built-up over the years. Darla and Luke met Buffy in the early days of her career.

[thevampirewithsoul]

Actually a 3rd Slayer should have been called.
In the episode "Enemies" when Angel is pretending to be Angelus the Mayor tells him to kill Buffy slowly, cause he does not want another Slayer to show up.
I think Joss forgot about the Mayor's line in this episode.

[AndrewCrossett]

Jul 30, 2009 10:37:05 GMT -5 wenxina said:

Jul 30, 2009 10:33:17 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

And yet in "Welcome to the Hellmouth," she was a complete unknown. Even old, experienced vamps like Darla and Luke had no clue at first who she was, even after she started dusting the minions.

Not sure that this is a counterpoint. I wasn't arguing that Buffy was already badass from the start, just that even powerful foes recognize her as the Slayer because of the rep she's built-up over the years. Darla and Luke met Buffy in the early days of her career.

It wasn't an argument, just an observation. The vamps don't recognize the Slayer just because she's the Slayer... Buffy's fame among them was fully due to her own efforts and not any automatic Slaydar on the part of the bad guys.

(I just rewatched WttH and was struck by how slow on the uptake the vamps seemed to be, especially Darla and Luke, who should have known better.)

[lizzierainbow]

Yeah as others have said, when Buffy died in season 1 Kendra was called so as far as the slayer legacy is concerned there is already another slayer in place, obviously at the time of season 5 it was faith but either way, there is still a slayer on place

[gumgnome]

Jul 30, 2009 14:05:04 GMT -5 thevampirewithsoul said:

Actually a 3rd Slayer should have been called.
In the episode "Enemies" when Angel is pretending to be Angelus the Mayor tells him to kill Buffy slowly, cause he does not want another Slayer to show up.
I think Joss forgot about the Mayor's line in this episode.

Well, the complexities of the situation may have been lost on the Mayor. As far as we know, this is the first time that two Slayers have been active in all of history. We, as fans, can work out how the lineage goes (thanks to some stunning exposition from Giles no doubt) but who knows how much the Mayor knows about how it works?

[BuffyisLife]

The way I look at it is, Buffy already died once, albeit for a second or two, so she can't die again according to the slayer line. So, if she can't die again then a new slayer can't be called when she dies again. Faith, having never died before, would be the one who would have to die in order for a new Slayer to be called. In away, Buffy is out of the slayer line aside from the strength, skills, etc. Her second death doesn't really matter, because another slayer was already called by her first death. She had already passed the torch so to speck when she died the first time. Shes still a slayer, but she no longer matters in the slayer line as far as when the next slayer is called.

[Reika]

I always thought that Joss coming out and saying that the Slayer line no longer ran through Buffy, but Faith, was one of the biggest fanwanks he could've mustered.

First, by him saying that and not permitting us to come to theories on our own, is him simply owning up to his fiasco he created in S7 and all its inconsistencies and contradicting storylines that soon followed.

I know some take what he says at face value because he is the creater of the show, but I never accepted that, not after the events of S7 and the inconsistency it'd bring to the storyline and the consequences that were to ensue. His explanation didn't add up, it'd be simply us taking it by the letter in a compliant need to have absolute certainty of something while disregarding all rights as fans to be inquisitive and throughoutly analyze the show, also disregarding S7's self-contradictory plot and accepting plotholes with a smile plastered on our faces, as if we didn't have a mind of our own or the ability to thoroughly examine critically the show with in-depth analysis. And I'm not talking about a need for constant ambivalence, but rather being able to question Joss's methods and the series itself.

So, no, if some wish to accept what Joss said and say that the Slayer line was later running through Faith, after Kendra had died, that's fine by me. But I for one refuse to accept that.

First off, anyone remember S6 promo and what it said there? It began with showing Buffy's tombstone and the saying "Into each generation a Slayer is born", then it cuts to the ground and Buffy's hand coming out of the dirt, "Buffy lives!"

I think that was a clear indication that the Slayer line could've well been running through Buffy again.

I have made a list with a few theories on Buffy's second death and why a Slayer hadn't been called and so on. I'll just share it for those interested, who seem to have a similar opinion of my own and don't simply accept the rubbish that are thrown their way.

Buffy's 2nd death - Main Theories:

1. Buffy was no longer the Slayer once she died in Prophecy Girl. She was still a Slayer, but the Slayer's line no longer ran through her blood, but Kendra's. That's why when Kendra died in Becoming, the line was moved on to Faith. So regardless if Buffy died again or not, she'd always be 'a' Slayer, but no longer 'the'.

2. Since Buffy died in a mystical way, there was no way for her to trigger another Slayer. So that'd explain why the First didn't want to kill her nor Faith, because both would've been able to trigger two of the potential Slayers in S7.

3. Another Slayer was actually called after Buffy died in The Gift, but perhaps the Scoobies nor the WC got a hold of her, localized her or ever heard of her before, since they had no reason to, because Buffy's death wasn't made known. And since they didn't expect one, no one bothered with it.

*4. Since Buffy no longer had the Slayer's line running through her, when she died again in The Gift, by her being resurrected again (Perhaps also because it was with magic), it made the Slayer line run through her once more, reactivating the Slayer power to trigger another Slayer within. Hence both Faith & Buffy had it in 'em to activate a new Slayer from there on. Providing a solid answer as to why The First had never moved in to try and end the Slayer’s line before: by Buffy's second resurrection, it caused an irregularity in the Slayer's line. The First tried to use this glitch to eliminate the Slayers forever, having the Slayer's line weakened by the fact there were two official Slayers alive at the same time, both of whom this time could reactivate a new Slayer. The Slayer line now running through both Buffy & Faith caused the unbalancing of the good vs. evil scale that The First took advantage of, as it all has to do with keeping the balance and tipping the scales.

5. Slayerness is a sort of mystical empowering "tag" on an individual that can be attached (calling a new slayer), dampened (the drug concoction Giles gave Buffy in Helpless) and passed on (a Slayer’s death activating the next). Buffy will always be a Slayer, but with her 1st death, the mystical smoke signal went off, but instead of rotting she was resuscitated by Xander, and so all the characteristics of the Slayer tag stayed with her, but she was off the radar as far as the magic is concerned. The main difference between what Xander did and what Willow did is that Xander didn't create anything; Buffy stopped breathing for a short period of time, but not long enough for brain function to cease or her body to begin degrading. Willow, however, had to use magic to recreate Buffy's body; she had to summon her soul, and she had to somehow make this newly made Buffy a Slayer. What was left of Buffy was a gooey mess of flesh and bones, eaten away by insects and microbes, tissue broken down in the beginning of the 'return to dirt' process. Willow had to give her flesh, give her her soul, and give her Slayerness. Willow wasn't powerful enough to create the essence of a Slayer to give to Buffy, and that the reason she was able to bring Buffy back as a Slayer is that she tapped back into the source of Slayerness, which "re-tagged" Buffy as if she was a new slayer, which meant that there were two active "tagged" Slayers at one time. (Mokee)

6. The shooting script for Chosen originally included a longer speech by Buffy to the potential Slayers, including the line, "It's true none of you has the power Faith and I have. I think both of us would have to die for a new Slayer to be called, and we can't even be sure that girl is in this room. That's the rule. So here's the part where you make a choice." This might mean that the Slayer line was actually divided to the two of them. That’d actually somewhat explain where the writers were coming from in this Season. Also giving an answer as to why Buffy’s second death didn’t activate any new Slayers -- because Faith was still alive. Both would have to be killed for a new Slayer to be called. This would also explain where The First was coming from: it did not want to kill Buffy throughout all the Season, first wanting to get rid of the potentials, so she wouldn’t trigger a new one... and since Faith hadn’t been around, its worry was based solely on Buffy, who stood over the Hellmouth.

[buffystar]

Aug 9, 2009 20:57:58 GMT -5 Reika said:

5. Slayerness is a sort of mystical empowering "tag" on an individual that can be attached (calling a new slayer), dampened (the drug concoction Giles gave Buffy in Helpless) and passed on (a Slayer’s death activating the next). Buffy will always be a Slayer, but with her 1st death, the mystical smoke signal went off, but instead of rotting she was resuscitated by Xander, and so all the characteristics of the Slayer tag stayed with her, but she was off the radar as far as the magic is concerned. The main difference between what Xander did and what Willow did is that Xander didn't create anything; Buffy stopped breathing for a short period of time, but not long enough for brain function to cease or her body to begin degrading. Willow, however, had to use magic to recreate Buffy's body; she had to summon her soul, and she had to somehow make this newly made Buffy a Slayer. What was left of Buffy was a gooey mess of flesh and bones, eaten away by insects and microbes, tissue broken down in the beginning of the 'return to dirt' process. Willow had to give her flesh, give her her soul, and give her Slayerness. Willow wasn't powerful enough to create the essence of a Slayer to give to Buffy, and that the reason she was able to bring Buffy back as a Slayer is that she tapped back into the source of Slayerness, which "re-tagged" Buffy as if she was a new slayer, which meant that there were two active "tagged" Slayers at one time. (Mokee)

6. The shooting script for Chosen originally included a longer speech by Buffy to the potential Slayers, including the line, "It's true none of you has the power Faith and I have. I think both of us would have to die for a new Slayer to be called, and we can't even be sure that girl is in this room. That's the rule. So here's the part where you make a choice." This might mean that the Slayer line was actually divided to the two of them. That’d actually somewhat explain where the writers were coming from in this Season. Also giving an answer as to why Buffy’s second death didn’t activate any new Slayers -- because Faith was still alive. Both would have to be killed for a new Slayer to be called. This would also explain where The First was coming from: it did not want to kill Buffy throughout all the Season, first wanting to get rid of the potentials, so she wouldn’t trigger a new one... and since Faith hadn’t been around, its worry was based solely on Buffy, who stood over the Hellmouth.

Maybe when Buffy died a third Slayer was chosen but never discovered. When Willow did the spell, the newly unknown chosen girl was turned back into a Potential and the power was regiven to Buffy. Or was that what you meant?

I still don't understand the sixth theory. If both Buffy and Faith had to die. Why did Kendra's death activated Faith?

[wenxina]

The shooting script mentioned wouldn't have made sense, and thankfully that bit was dropped. At least there wasn't another continuity error.

[buffystar]

Aug 10, 2009 1:23:45 GMT -5 wenxina said:

The shooting script mentioned wouldn't have made sense, and thankfully that bit was dropped. At least there wasn't another continuity error.

Yeah. The Ubervamps being "un-uber" was alrighty a big one. No need for another.

What I don't get is how Buffy's resurrection cause an imbalance in the Slayer line. It's not like she didn't die before.

[gumgnome]

I've never really questioned the Slayer line bit before to be honest. Doesn't it make sense that once Kendra is called, Buffy is no longer at the end of the line? It would annoy me more I think, if another Slayer had been called after The Gift.

But, that does make me wonder how the First is presented with a new opportunity to end the Slayers once Buffy is resurrected. I'm sure I have had this explained to me before, but anyone wanna have another crack?

[Reika]

What I don't get is how Buffy's resurrection cause an imbalance in the Slayer line. It's not like she didn't die before.

That's precisely it. You just questioned the same thing Anya did. If Buffy's resurrection caused an unbalance in the Slayer's line, couldn't we at least know why and what instability that was? That's why I find it so inane that Joss would admit that the Slayer's line was then running through Faith after S7 occured. If this were his explanation before Buffy's 2nd resurrection it'd make a lot more sense, as we'd come to terms that Buffy's 2nd resurrection must've caused the unbalancing because perhaps her essence re-entered the Slayer's line, she had the ability to actiavte a Slayer again, or because she and Faith both had it in them at the same time, or any of the theories presented above besides the 1st one. It'd link the storylines, establish consistencies in them, turn them into compelling reasons.

Buffy's 1st resurrection didn't cause an unbalance, because the thought of her no longer having the Slayer line within her but Kendra and then Faith does make absolute sense. It'd also explain why this wasn't the opportunity for the The First. But that notion still taking place after her 2nd resurrection makes absolute no sense. Are we to believe this imbalance in the Slayer line was caused simply because Buffy was resurrected by magic? Come on, that's cheapening our efforts as fans to come up with something more intelligent and ambiguous than that, as well as it also contradicts a lot of facts that took place in the series. First thing's first, raising someone killed by mystical forces does not violate the laws of natural passing. If it does not violate any rules, then why would her 2nd resurrection be so different than her 1st? Now I understand that some might think it makes absolute sense, but the logic here doesn't go far, at least it's sqaushed when we get to The First storyline and the whole storyline in S7.

That also takes us to another theory concerning the shooting script that was dropped:

I still don't understand the sixth theory. If both Buffy and Faith had to die. Why did Kendra's death activated Faith?

When we say that both Buffy and Faith had to die in order for another Slayer to be called, that doesn't concern Kendra's storyline. With this explanation, we were to believe that Buffy's 2nd resurrection somehow managed to make her tap back into the Slayer line. Her 1st death still holds the notion that she no longer had the Slayer line within her, so it doesn't affect Kendra's death that activated Faith.

Both Buffy and Faith having to die to activate a new Slayer would also explain better the concept of the umbalancing of the Slayer's line quite well. Two Slayers existing at the same time didn't seem to cause an unbalance in the Slayer's line before, hence why The First hadn't had the opportunity to act before. But now, now that two Slayers both had the triggering of another Slayer in them, that would explain why The First could act. That'd explain The First's given opportunity and what it meant when they say that the Slayer's line was "weakened". It was weakened because never before in the history of Slayers had two Slayers been alive, both with the ability to trigger a new one.

Believing that simply Faith had the essence in her to trigger a new Slayer is also accepting the continuity error of The First's motives. If The First was simply waiting for an instability in the Slayer's line, then why not before? Why now, if it doesn't differ from before? It doesn't add up. The notion of both being 'current' Slayers makes absolute sense. It makes sense as to why The First only tried to kill Faith when she was in prison, but never Buffy. Why it never permitted Caleb to kill her when he had so many opportunities, why it first wanted to get rid of all the potentials to then kill Buffy, the current Slayer alongside Faith.

In Show Time, Beljoxa's Eye says that the opportunity has only resently presented itself for The First. Says that the mystical forces surrounding the chosen line have become irrevocably altered, become unstable, vulnerable. How can simply being brought back by magic cause this? The oracle mentionwed that the forces surrounding the chosen line was what became unstable. The notion that what caused the line to become irrevocably alreted lies on the fact that two current Slayers, both with the ability to trigger new Slayers, were living. Be it because both had to be killed for a new one to rise, or be it because Buffy tapped back into the essence of the line, it doesn't matter. What matters is that it goes further to explain S7's storyline while it also links beautifully with the plots.

Anya mentions that she doesn't understand this, because Buffy had died before. But Giles confirms the matter isn't because she had died, but rather because she lives, again. Anyone remember that Buffy was indeed resurrected before, and that wasn't the first time? Giles wasn't able to explain it, because quite frankly, how could've he known that this unbalance was due to the fact that Buffy now had the ability to trigger a new Slayer again? He simply thought it was because she lived again. Also, it doesn't state anything that this was caused because she was resurrected by magic. Magic doesn't have anything to do with this. The fact both were current Slayers is what had to do with it.

[jdgjordan]

maybe the 3rd slayer is twilight