"Amends" and The First

[randygiles]

I just noticed something today while rewatching Amends.

So, The First appears to be corporeal in Amends. As Jenny, it touches Angel quite a few times. Yet, in S7, it is not corporeal, right? I know it says something about "being made flesh" and I don't recall it being able to touch or hurt anything.

So, anyone else noticed this? My question is: how come The First is corporeal in Amends and can't become flesh later in S7? It needs Caleb and the Bringers to do it's dirty work...

[alycat7]

I think it was just an oversight on Joss' part. I bet he forgot that The First touched Angel, just like he forgot that Warren died.

[Iceeh★]

Yeah, I just rewatched it too, and the touching thing made me go "Huh?" Silly forgetful Joss.

[Skytteflickan88]

I guess we can pretend that it was Angel's very real daydreams/illusions. Just think very hard.

[henzINNIT]

Never physically interfere's with anything, just appears to. [/cop-out bullshit answer]

[wenxina]

It's not really a cop-out. The First manifests itself in the perception of its victim. Buffy wasn't able to see the First unless it wanted her to be able to. As Jenny, the First was "touching" Angel, but it's very much all in his head. The only real violation of the whole no touch/no harm rule seems to be in "CWDP", with the house going all Poltergeist on Dawn. And even then, there's the explanation that the mayhem was the result of the crossfire of the First vs. Joyce, and Dawn just got caught in it.
But back to the point, the First's manifestations are very real to the people it chooses. All the way down to the audible footsteps (yes, this is most likely an artifact of filming, but the argument can be made to further strengthen the illusions that the First is able to conjure).

[XanderHarris]

I consent to th explanations given in this thread - funny thing I just watched "Help" again yesterday.
Some time at the beginning of the episode, the First (as Buffy) appears to Spike and comforts him.

And yeah, she/it strokes Spike's forehead.

So I would go with the explanation: The First can make his victims think they are touched but cannot effectively touch something.

[trunkstheslayer]

Dec 25, 2008 16:59:13 GMT -5 wenxina said:

It's not really a cop-out. The First manifests itself in the perception of its victim. Buffy wasn't able to see the First unless it wanted her to be able to. As Jenny, the First was "touching" Angel, but it's very much all in his head. The only real violation of the whole no touch/no harm rule seems to be in "CWDP", with the house going all Poltergeist on Dawn. And even then, there's the explanation that the mayhem was the result of the crossfire of the First vs. Joyce, and Dawn just got caught in it.
But back to the point, the First's manifestations are very real to the people it chooses. All the way down to the audible footsteps (yes, this is most likely an artifact of filming, but the argument can be made to further strengthen the illusions that the First is able to conjure).

Just a point: It's been stated time and again that Joyce was NOT present. It was the First, plain and simple.

[wenxina]

Dec 25, 2008 22:04:31 GMT -5 trunkstheslayer said:

Dec 25, 2008 16:59:13 GMT -5 wenxina said:

It's not really a cop-out. The First manifests itself in the perception of its victim. Buffy wasn't able to see the First unless it wanted her to be able to. As Jenny, the First was "touching" Angel, but it's very much all in his head. The only real violation of the whole no touch/no harm rule seems to be in "CWDP", with the house going all Poltergeist on Dawn. And even then, there's the explanation that the mayhem was the result of the crossfire of the First vs. Joyce, and Dawn just got caught in it.
But back to the point, the First's manifestations are very real to the people it chooses. All the way down to the audible footsteps (yes, this is most likely an artifact of filming, but the argument can be made to further strengthen the illusions that the First is able to conjure).

Just a point: It's been stated time and again that Joyce was NOT present. It was the First, plain and simple.

And I don't buy that it was Joyce either, hence my claim that the only time there's been an actual violation of the First's no touch/no harm policy. I'm just saying that people have been able to explain that little fact away.

[Emmie]

trunktheslayer, I think Xi was stating the fanwank that all the dangerous Poltergeist activity done to Dawn in CDWP was the First trying to manifest and manipulate Dawn but that Joyce's (the real Joyce) spirit was there in the house protecting Dawn from the First. When Dawn ejected spiritual beings outside of the house, she kicked out Joyce and then the First was able to appear as Joyce (surrounded by the beaming lights and heavenly glow).

That's just a fan theory of what happened in the house during CDWP. Another fanwank was that one of the First's followers used magical know-how to haunt the house in order to scare the crap out of Dawn and make her believe that her mother was really there at the end even though it was the First. Arguably out of all the First's hauntings that night between terrifying Willow as Cassie and visiting Dawn as Joyce, only First!Joyce's visit had a long-term effect. Dawn held on to her distrust of Buffy (which the First instilled in her that night) all the way through Empty Places.

[randygiles]

Thanks guys.