Anya and her soul?

[Joe]

Ok so this had been bugging me and I finally decided to make a topic over it. When Anya's a vengeance demon she slaughtered hundreds of men without guilt. I figured she didn't have a soul.

Then she becomes human. She doesn't brood, she doesn't feel guilty, and no one blames her for it. And then when she becomes a demon again she doesn't kill people, and she says it's upsetting, and "Selfless" basically states that Anya felt extremely guilty that she killed all those frat guys... when she's a demon.

So does she have a soul? Cause if she does.. it's pretty wrecked. She forgot about everything she did, so did everyone else. She probably killed more than Angel and Spike combined, but still Buffy and the others don't care.

Or does she not have a soul? How did she love Xander then, and be nice and good with the scoobies for a few years? I don't get it.

[Skytteflickan88]

I'm guessing that she had a soul. She expected hers to be destroyed in Selfless, but instead Halfrek's get destroyed. Human Anya and demon Anya have pretty much the same personality.

I'm guessing that Anya didn't have that good of a childhood or something, that her moral was twisted. It wasn't until she feel in love with Xander that she could start liking people, even the ones with flaws(cheaters, mean campus-dudes).

It's like she didn't even get how much pain she caused. She just killed. Then she became human, and experienced grief, physical pain and heartache, and she learned to be nice.

Anya wasn't a monster, she was very much human, but she was a killer. I waited for her to have start killing again the whole time. And in season 7 it happened. But I'm still glad that she felt regret and could trully become one of the good guys. Before thats he was just doing it for Xander.

And I feel the dark side of her character should have been explored earlier. Every time she talked about her demon days everyone rolled their eyes, as if they didn't realize that she was a heartbreak away from killing all of them. I'm also surprised that she was so sad that Joyce died. It's weird, she lived for a thousand years and killed so many. Did it never occur to her that some of those people could be worth keeping around?

I don't know, I don't get killers who can like some people and kill others.

When Anya became Xander's girlfriend I was very surprised. Here's the guy that has been mean to Angel all along, blaming him for things he did without a soul, and he dates a chick who did all these horrible things, assumingly witha soul. Hypocrite. And in season 7, how he treated Spike really pissed me of, rape-attempt or not. He had been dating a mass-murderer and he's rude to poor Spike. But what can you expect from the guy who was possessed by a hyena, tried to rape Buffy, and then harasses Angel.

Also, she tried to kill Willow in season 3, at the bronze. Shouldn't Giles, Buffy, Xander & Willow have killed her? Not that's the only time they've gone soft on evil humans, but still.

[BenTaylor3907]

Well, I'm guessing that she did have her soul but she was so used to getting "Vengeance" that she just ignored the guilt hidden deep inside. And yes, she probably killed more than William the Bloody and Angelus combined but I don't think they know of that, do they? After what happened in The Wish (Her amulet getting busted!) she was stuck, not able to use her vengeance demon power. So she had to mingle in with the humans to survive or whatever. I think her feeling came back when she started dating Xander. He showed her laughter, love and happiness. In which she had forgotten when she ruled with an iron fist alongside Halfrek. And she gained back her "human qualities". After she and Xander split, she was obviously pissed and went back to her old ways to let out the anger that Xander caused. And right after, she realized what she had done began to worry and whatnot. So I would say that Anya always had a soul, it was just hidden in her "Vengeance Days".
I hope I answered you question.

[jessesopher]

Keep in mind that Anya probably didn't feel remorse when she was originally a vengeance demon because she felt she was doing the right thing. Hallie said that they prefer to be called "Justice Demons." In their minds, they aren't doing anything necessarily wrong, they are bringing punishment to those who deserve it.

So that probably explains why she didn't feel guilty at first. But then after being human again, she "connected" with the human race again. She understood that things aren't always so black and white as she once thought when she was a demon -- so when she became a demon again, those feelings were still fresh. I would venture to think that if she had stayed a demon for another hundred years or so, she would have gotten over the guilt once again. But I'm not sure about that...

[buffyverseforever]

I'm not sure Anya could have stayed a demon for another hundred years. I think the guilt was eating her alive and that she actually wanted D'Hoffyrn to kill her....

Best wishes,

Scott

[jessesopher]

So... a little off topic...

What do you think was the difference between her situations with Xander and the troll guy (Can't think of his name right now...)? She was so angered by troll guy that she exacted vengeance on him and then D'Hoffyrn recruited he as vengeance demon.... when everything went down with Xander, she never really exacted vengeance. She tried to get other people to do it, but she never did a spell or something like she did with troll guy. Maybe the key into deciphering everything is in the quality of their relationships -- maybe she really couldn't do anything to Xander because he was her "true" love or something.

[Skytteflickan88]

Sept 24, 2008 23:21:13 GMT -5 buffyverseforever said:

I'm not sure Anya could have stayed a demon for another hundred years. I think the guilt was eating her alive and that she actually wanted D'Hoffyrn to kill her....

Best wishes,

Scott

Yes, she did want to die. She was surprised when D'Hoffryn killed Halfrek instead of her. She looked so full of purpose when she said that she wanted to take it back, even tough she had to die/get her soul destoyed. That's a pretty steep price, to have your soul destryed. Nothing left after that I guess.

Sept 25, 2008 6:59:25 GMT -5 @jessesopher said:

So... a little off topic...

What do you think was the difference between her situations with Xander and the troll guy (Can't think of his name right now...)? She was so angered by troll guy that she exacted vengeance on him and then D'Hoffyrn recruited he as vengeance demon.... when everything went down with Xander, she never really exacted vengeance. She tried to get other people to do it, but she never did a spell or something like she did with troll guy. Maybe the key into deciphering everything is in the quality of their relationships -- maybe she really couldn't do anything to Xander because he was her "true" love or something.

Well, she hasn't done spells for a long time. Perhaps she didn't remember how to do the troll-spell, or didn't want Xander to be that strong.

I aslo think that after she calmed down and had her revenge, she realized that she loved him too much to hurt him. And it's not like Xander cheated on her like Olaf did, he was just afraid that they would turn into his parents.

And I'm guessing that back in the day, Olaf was the only friend she had. After being with Xander, she had seen more of humanity, and didn't see things as black and white as before, as Jesse put it. That, and the fact that Xander seemed to be a nicer guy than Olaf, is probably what made the difference.

Also, Anya trying to better herself makes her a more interesting character to write for and to watch, than if she went all Dark Willow. It made the plot better.

[snizapman6294]

Sept 23, 2008 18:29:56 GMT -5 Joe said:

Ok so this had been bugging me and I finally decided to make a topic over it. When Anya's a vengeance demon she slaughtered hundreds of men without guilt. I figured she didn't have a soul.

Then she becomes human. She doesn't brood, she doesn't feel guilty, and no one blames her for it. And then when she becomes a demon again she doesn't kill people, and she says it's upsetting, and "Selfless" basically states that Anya felt extremely guilty that she killed all those frat guys... when she's a demon.

So does she have a soul? Cause if she does.. it's pretty wrecked. She forgot about everything she did, so did everyone else. She probably killed more than Angel and Spike combined, but still Buffy and the others don't care.

Or does she not have a soul? How did she love Xander then, and be nice and good with the scoobies for a few years? I don't get it.

i think that's the running joke, that even with a soul, you can (not) feel remorse, and she was kind of brooding until she met xander: in Doppelgangland, when she's talking to d'hoffryn, and when she's in the bronze (remember GIVE ME A FRICKIN' BEER... i'll have a coke)

but at the same time, it's not TECHNICALLY brooding, but it's pittying.

also, she does show she has a soul: one of my favorite scenes in the series: The Body when she keeps asking the rediculous questions, and then she starts crying and explains what it's like to be a soulless demon for 1100 years and then to just be mortal and dealing with everything...


Anya: i wish joyce didn't die!

(everyone stares at her)

[kittyfantastico]

This has bugged me also. Xander is very holier-than-thou when he's scolding Buffy for hooking up with Spike, meanwhile he's in love with Anya, who has killed and maimed and ruined thousands of lives with no guilt or remorse. She didn't stop by choice either; her powers were taken away just like Spike's were taken by the chip. It also bugs me that Anya still hangs out with Hallie (one of the most annoying characters ever) even after she tried to curse them all. They would have eventually starved to death stuck in that house forever, right? Apparently anything done as a vengeance demon gets a free pass somehow, without worrying about the collateral damage. Very often the wish hurts the wish-maker just as much as everyone else.

Its also odd that when Anya is trying to wish bad things on Xander it never occurs to her to use other magic or even human means, but I guess it works for the plot.

[Skytteflickan88]

Another thing:

The wedding. D'Hoffryn, Halfrek and probably other murderers as well. I mean, it was funny to see, but ... Gray area I suppose. I just don't get it.

Mr. "I hate Angel and Spike although they didn't have souls when they murdered" allowes his wife to invite fiends. I don't get it. Funny, but unrealistic.

Of course, living up on the Hellmouth could screw anyone's morales up.

[kittyfantastico]

The wedding never made any sense. Anya never talks to those demons and Xander hates his family. Why would they throw a giant wedding like that? A small one would have made much more sense. Maybe Xander's parents would still have had to be there, but not the whole crazy extended family.

[snizapman6294]

cuz Anya wanted a normal life and normal life to her means a normal wedding.

[randygiles]

Sept 23, 2008 18:29:56 GMT -5 Joe said:

Ok so this had been bugging me and I finally decided to make a topic over it. When Anya's a vengeance demon she slaughtered hundreds of men without guilt. I figured she didn't have a soul.

Then she becomes human. She doesn't brood, she doesn't feel guilty, and no one blames her for it. And then when she becomes a demon again she doesn't kill people, and she says it's upsetting, and "Selfless" basically states that Anya felt extremely guilty that she killed all those frat guys... when she's a demon.

So does she have a soul? Cause if she does.. it's pretty wrecked. She forgot about everything she did, so did everyone else. She probably killed more than Angel and Spike combined, but still Buffy and the others don't care.

Or does she not have a soul? How did she love Xander then, and be nice and good with the scoobies for a few years? I don't get it.

This idea of the soul is a tricky thing in the Buffyverse. What does it mean to have a soul? Giles tells Buffy that a vampire can never be a person because once the soul is gone there is nothing left but a demon.

Having a soul does not always make a person "good" in the 'verse. Humans with souls do all sorts of bad in the Buffyverse. But a soul does make one more human. Anya tells Spike she didn't ask to be human, i.e. she didn't ask for a conscience and human moral code to adhere too. And Spike replies with that he didn't ask for a chip in his head. So in other words their inability to do harm (chiped or powerless human) does not qualify as being "good" because there is no true element of choice in the matter. Anya's powers were taken away from her against her will, from the spell gone wrong in The Wish. Spike was electrocuted and chipped by the Initiative.

My opinion is that Anyanka did not have a soul because, sticking with the Buffyverse mythology - demons have no souls, yes? So when she became human she got a soul according to the myth. I think in terms of her not feeling bad for her crimes to men - Anya just sees the world differently. She doens't understand human emotions like guilt until later, when she starts spending more time with the Scoobies, that she learns to admire them and love them (as Andrew would say

There def seems to be a double standard going on. As you said, no one makes a big deal out of Anya "redeeming" herself or not, yet everyone is on Spike's back about it. And Angel's moral worth is based on his effort to "atone for his sins".

I think the difference is that... she felt bad about killing the frat boys in S7 because she had learned to love and respect humans by that point. In the beginning, she quite loathed them and found them very boring. Yet, the humans she'd been hanging around with had, well, humanized her.

Maybe Buffy looks the other way because Anya, when she was a demon, was inflicting revenge to scorned women to evil men who "deserved it". Maybe Buffy can relate. Who knows. Vengence demons are chosen, like she was...to protect women.

Hope this post made sense...I'm tired

[randygiles]

Dec 24, 2008 4:45:14 GMT -5 kittyfantastico said:

The wedding never made any sense. Anya never talks to those demons and Xander hates his family. Why would they throw a giant wedding like that? A small one would have made much more sense. Maybe Xander's parents would still have had to be there, but not the whole crazy extended family.

Well, Xanders dad was paying for the wedding - so I guess the family had to be invited Also, Anya probobly invited the people to appear more "normal".

[Saturn 5]

I'll go for yes, demons seem to have souls of a kind unlike vamps which are human shells

[wenxina]

Dec 31, 2008 3:04:16 GMT -5 @randygiles said:

My opinion is that Anyanka did not have a soul because, sticking with the Buffyverse mythology - demons have no souls, yes? So when she became human she got a soul according to the myth.

It's never been stated that demon's don't have souls... they just don't have human ones. So when a vampire is created, the demon sets up shop in the human host. But what is it that takes the place of the human soul in the first place? I would argue that this is the demon soul/essence.

I also don't think that it's ever been established if a human-turned-demon (like Anyanka) has the human soul replaced with the demon essence, or that by turning demon, it is corrupted/altered/transformed in some way. So by turning human, Anya could either have had her human soul replanted (which would explain her inability to blend with humans again, given the 1000+ years it was gone... takes a little getting used to), or the demon taint was washed away.

Actually, coming to think of it, there has been a precedent of human-turned-demon of sorts: the Slayer. In "Get It Done", Buffy was shown the origins of the First Slayer; the infusion of a girl with demonic essence. While the soul of the Slayer is undeniably human (Spike couldn't hurt pre-S6 Buffy without blinding pain), it is tainted somewhat... giving her the typical abilities of a Slayer.

So, I'd argue that both avenues are actually viable for the Anya/Anyanka transformation, using precedents in the Buffverse. Having her human soul reinstated makes Anya a defacto Angel (ironic, isn't it, that Xander hated Angel, and loved Anya) and absolves her of her crimes against humanity. However, it is missing the remorse element, which irony of ironies, only returns after she has been reinstated as a vengeance demon, but her stint as a human colors her reactions to the havoc she wreaks. And so, it further grays the entire situation as we're talking about a demon soul that feels remorse. In other words, it's actually an argument for the "Not all demons are evil" camp. And if it's the latter case, where Anya's soul was tainted, well, one could argue that the human element was there all along, and the fact that she didn't care who she hurt back in the day was because she was acting out of hurt, until it became routine. This is supported by the view taken by Halfrek in a flashback in "Selfless", where she essentially tells Anyanka that she's a workaholic; i.e. she took no pleasure in her work, it was all merely going through the motions.

But as Halfrek's soul was the price for Anya's emancipation from the demon fold, I'd argue that at least some, if not all demons have souls.

[Nicholas]

This was something I was just discussing in another thread. I believe that Anya did not have a soul while she was a demon but when turned human, her mortal soul returned to her. However, because of the fact that while she was human FIRST (Aud) she was mistreated by people as we hear about and she is wronged by Olaf so she grows angry with humans. Her human personality is similar to her demon personality just as a vampire. When she loses her powers and becomes human, she gets back her soul, but since shes not properly experienced when it comes to human emotions and feelings, she doesnt really know whether or not she is feeling remorse. In the Body, she clearly feels grief when it comes to Joyce and states that she doesnt understand death and its impact and she only really begins to understand it and what loss entails when she sees the people close to her crying. When she becomes a demon again, she clearly still has a soul because she still loves Xander and she feels remorse when she kills the frat boys. If this is a continuity error, then I cant really be too sure, but then if she had a soul during this time, then she must have had it when she was a demon in the first place. Yet, she also seemed to have lacked her power center the second time around so maybe this was some part of a bigger plan. That, I'm not too clear on. So, maybe she did actually have a soul when she was a demon, but the fact that the demon wanted to do vengeance, she felt a thirst for it and was compelled to do so, hence killing people. So, in closing of my odd thoughts i think that YES, Anya had a soul when she was a demon, but because of her lack of human experience and emotions, she didnt know that she was feeling emotions. Not until she became close to Buffy and Co.

And another think thats intresting to think about was how apparently when Anyas power center was destroyed, all her spells were apparently reversed. Would that have taken back all the death she dealt? I know there was olaf and the man from Hells Bells, but they were in different dimensions so...

BenTaylor summed it up pretty well.