The Buffyverse soul

[BlueJay]

So this is what I think a soul is, in the Buffyverse, anyway.

It's cliched, but think of it this way: "We are not bodies with souls. We are souls with bodies"

It's your consciousness, your essence, and in an ideal situation, your feelings and memories (keep in mind that you can still have a soul and have amnesia or be under a spell). Your soul is you.

Some people interchange soul and conscience, but I think they're two different things. Just because one has a soul, doesn't mean that you're good. You can be totally evil and have a soul. I believe that having a soul just makes it easier to be good and not having a soul makes it easier to be bad for most people. It's just up to the person. Sociopaths have souls, but they don't have a conscience (explain that, Danner!).

For example, on the show, Anya had a soul while she was vengeance demon and she and Halfrek murdered tons of people. Anya eventually become guilty of her actions wanted to redeem herself, and she wanted to trade in her life and soul for 20 others. Instead, she was turned human permanently. Also, Lilah and Faith were evil, but they still had that place in their core where they could have changed their ways. Fortunately, Faith did and unfortunately, Lilah didn't get a chance to. On the flip side, Spike and Harmony, as vampires, were soulless and were naturally evil. Spike managed to turn good while soulless and eventually got his soul back. Harmony, however, managed to be good for a while, but it didn't work out for her.

Now when it comes to vampires, I believe this is how it works.
Say, I get sired. I move on to the afterlife. And a demon takes over my body, changing my body's physical form, inheriting my memories... and possibly attaining my personality (ex Harmony/Spike/Darla), though obviously, they don't have to (ex Willow/Angelus).

Now, let's say that my vamp self is ensouled, like Angel. I get pulled outta where I'm supposed to be and I'm shoved into my old body, still a vampire, while the demon is buried somewhere underneath. And all the memories that the demon had while in my body are transferred to me again, so it's like I lived everything the demon lived.

Now, say there's a vamp me running around, but like Darla, I get to be human again. So it works like this. I'm a human, I die and move on, a demon takes over. Done. When I become human again, the demon gets kicked out, taking the physical vampire changes with it, and I am in complete control of my body, and all the memories created by the demon come rushing back in. Later, I get turned into a vampire AGAIN, so then it's the same process. The demon comes back and the memories are re-inherited.

To back me up, here is a scene from Season 2's "Lie to Me":

Ford: I will become immortal.
Buffy: Well, I've got a news flash for you, braintrust: that's not how it works. You die, and a demon sets up shop in your old house, and it walks, and it talks, and it remembers your life, but it's not you.

Also, if you watch the Angelus episodes in Angel's fourth season, everyone (aside from Connor) treat Angelus and Angel like two different people.

So that's what I think a soul is in the Buffyverse.

[Danner]

(Much of this is copy/pasted from an IM conversation that Jay and I had. If any of it doesn't make sense, I apologize. I'm very tired and suffering from a migraine atm. xD)

I've always thought that soul = conscience, in a way. The self-restraint, the ability to acknowledge right and wrong, the overwhelming guilt, etc. I think that when a character is vamp'd, their conscience is effectively kicked out the window.
A majority of what I talk about below theorizes that this is true in the Buffyverse.

If we're talking about the personality/attitude of Angelus, it seems to me that those are all of Angel's restrained feelings. The things that he held back for the sake of others. When he lost his soul, he felt no need to please other people. His actions no longer have mental consequences on him, so he can be a cruel as he likes.

And Spike... hm, the thing about Spike is that he did do good, but he never meant to BE good. He helped others mostly for his own benefit. (Killing vampires and other demons for money, etc) When discussing his relationships with the Scoobies, it's obvious that vampires are able to bond just as easily as humans. They can FEEL the positive effects of a relationship for themselves, but don't necessarily care about how they affect others.

When using that quote as a defense, you have to consider that the characters are as unreliable as anyone. Buffy's opinions on the matter could have been swayed by her longing to believe that having no soul automatically makes a human or creature evil. This makes her job easier, and this is the ideal that the watchers enforce. They all could have been easily misguided to create efficiency in their work.

Also, by using sociopaths as an example it's assumed that these individuals without remorse have souls in the Buffyverse. This might not be completely true. In the Angel episode "I've Got You Under My Skin", it is implied that the possessed child has NO soul. He also displays some sociopathic tendencies. This makes it possible to consider that within the Buffyverse, people can be born without souls. These humans that are born without souls/consciences would be labeled sociopaths.

God, my brain is bleeding now.

[BlueJay]

I wuv you Danner. (hugs) You'll be okay. We'll come back to this another day. =]

[Enisy]

Joss Whedon: I would love to give you a more in-depth coherent explanation of my view of the soul, and if I had one I would. The soul and my concept of it are as ephemeral as anybody's, and possibly more so. And in terms of the show, it is something that exists to meet the needs of convenience; the truth is sometimes you can trap it in a jar; the truth is sometimes someone without one seems more interesting than someone with one. I don't think Clem has a soul, but he's certainly a sweet guy. Spike was definitely kind of a soulful character before he had a soul, but we made it clear that there was a level on which he could not operate. Although Spike could feel love, it was the possessive and selfish kind of love that most people feel. The concept of real altruism didn't exist for him. And although he did love Buffy and was moved by her emotionally, ultimately his desire to possess her led him to try and rape her because he couldn't make the connection -- the difference between their dominance games and actual rape.
With a soul comes a more adult understanding. That is again, a little vague, but... can I say that I believe in the soul? I don't know that I can. It's a beautiful concept, as is resurrection and a lot of other things we have on the show that I'm not really sure I can explain and I certainly don't believe in. It does fall prey to convenience, but at the same time it has consistently marked the real difference between somebody with a complex moral structure and someone who may be affable and even likable, but ultimately eats kittens.

[BlueJay]

That's Joss talking about his real world beliefs about the soul. That quote didn't even answer the question.

Yes, it's a matter of convenience for the show. Meaning that the writers probably interchange the theories that Danner and I presented for the purpose of writing a good episode.

But I wanna know what YOU think, Enisy. =)