AtS Season 4

[Emmie]

The Angel season 4 arc has always seemed riddled with plot holes and inconsistencies. It puzzled me why Evil Cordy/Jasmine would have the Beast do such elaborate actions like eclipsing the sun or having the gang bring forth Angelus just as distractions for her pregnancy. It never made sense to me.

But what if there was a prophecy that said all these events had to come to pass, in order for a PTB to be reborn on Earth?

how do you guys understand the season 4 arc?

[Wyndam]

Well I always viewed what happened with the Beast almost as the psychical manifestation of Jasmine's true, evil side. Blotting out the sun and putting Los Angeles into a state of hellish night and evil was just Jasmine's true side doing the dirty work by manipulating the Beast.

Having Angelus return was logical in that the Beast knew Angelus, but since all evidence of the Beast had been erased from their dimension, Angel couldn't remember anything, which is why Angelus had to be brought forth. It was basically a last ditch effort by the gang because the Beast was just so darn powerful.

[henzINNIT]

They needed an apocalypse to justify Cordy sleeping with Connor.... but Jasmine was in control anyway.... wtf?
Damn you went and made me logic it into the confusing turd story it is.

Maybe the beast was needed to wipe out W+H, who were arguably the most powerful competition.

[alycat7]

I hated the entire arc, i dont even try to understand it anymore.

[hunter233]

Yeah, my best advice is to watch it strictly on an episode by episode basis. It's actually pretty good when you do that and ignore a lot of the overarching weirdness.

[artiswar]

The way I see it, is Jasmine was a deity in the guise of love to cover up her own selfishness. This to me is highlighted in Peace Out, when she asks the people in the Hyperion to build her a great monument even larger than the pyramid of Giza. The only reason I bring this up is because I never understood why Jasmine needed to blot out he sun to come forth. It never made any sense to me. Then it occured to me that it wasn't necessary at all. Jasmine merely wanted the world to be in great peril so she could save it, and in turn become the savior of humanity. This is why she makes the beast forge a weapon out of his own bone. So she can sacrifice him and bring back the sun, saving everyone. She just wants to be worshipped and adored no matter what the cost. ANyway, i don't know if that answers any of your questions but it's the way I see it, and it's a viewpoint I've never heard brought up in discussion of the Jasmine arc.

[henzINNIT]

Thats a really nice explaination. Makes sense to me. *Karma's*

[Jinxieman]

artiswar said:

The way I see it, is Jasmine was a deity in the guise of love to cover up her own selfishness. This to me is highlighted in Peace Out, when she asks the people in the Hyperion to build her a great monument even larger than the pyramid of Giza. The only reason I bring this up is because I never understood why Jasmine needed to blot out he sun to come forth. It never made any sense to me. Then it occured to me that it wasn't necessary at all. Jasmine merely wanted the world to be in great peril so she could save it, and in turn become the savior of humanity. This is why she makes the beast forge a weapon out of his own bone. So she can sacrifice him and bring back the sun, saving everyone. She just wants to be worshipped and adored no matter what the cost. ANyway, i don't know if that answers any of your questions but it's the way I see it, and it's a viewpoint I've never heard brought up in discussion of the Jasmine arc.

I agree, that is a great way to look at this.

I've always felt that this season is the blackest hole in the entire buffyverse! Mainly because it crapped all over Cordelia and destroyed the awesomeness they had set up for her in season 3. One of the most exciting moment for me was when Cordy became half demon and she had powers, I loved it! Then they destroyed her. They say that there was nowhere else to go with her character but they barely explored her demon powers. The direction they took Cordy in this season was the worst plot choice Joss and company had ever created...IMO. Although I do have to give them credit for using this season to lead into what I consider to be one of the best seasons of Angel...Season 5. The only thing S5 is missing is Cordy.

I always thought a cool way they could have redeemed their crapfest on Cordy would have been to have her wake up from her coma during the flashes of Potentials getting their Slayer Power in Chosen. Then have Cordy be a Slayer in Season 5 of Angel. She could be in the show but not work for Wolfram and Hart.

[Emmie]

nice explanation, artiswar. you actually made sense of the senseless. *karma* for unclouding the issue for me, thanx.

i'd like to think i could have reasoned out the season 4 arc, but i always get distracted by the skeezy wrongness of cordy/connor...i think that pairing might actually kill braincells. where's xander with his "burning, beautiful eye" when you need him? i wish angel was handing out some more amnesia so i could forget them hooking up <squiks>

[Rachster]

jinxieman said:

artiswar said:

The way I see it, is Jasmine was a deity in the guise of love to cover up her own selfishness. This to me is highlighted in Peace Out, when she asks the people in the Hyperion to build her a great monument even larger than the pyramid of Giza. The only reason I bring this up is because I never understood why Jasmine needed to blot out he sun to come forth. It never made any sense to me. Then it occured to me that it wasn't necessary at all. Jasmine merely wanted the world to be in great peril so she could save it, and in turn become the savior of humanity. This is why she makes the beast forge a weapon out of his own bone. So she can sacrifice him and bring back the sun, saving everyone. She just wants to be worshipped and adored no matter what the cost. ANyway, i don't know if that answers any of your questions but it's the way I see it, and it's a viewpoint I've never heard brought up in discussion of the Jasmine arc.

I agree, that is a great way to look at this.

I've always felt that this season is the blackest hole in the entire buffyverse! Mainly because it crapped all over Cordelia and destroyed the awesomeness they had set up for her in season 3. One of the most exciting moment for me was when Cordy became half demon and she had powers, I loved it! Then they destroyed her. They say that there was nowhere else to go with her character but they barely explored her demon powers. The direction they took Cordy in this season was the worst plot choice Joss and company had ever created...IMO. Although I do have to give them credit for using this season to lead into what I consider to be one of the best seasons of Angel...Season 5. The only thing S5 is missing is Cordy.

I always thought a cool way they could have redeemed their crapfest on Cordy would have been to have her wake up from her coma during the flashes of Potentials getting their Slayer Power in Chosen. Then have Cordy be a Slayer in Season 5 of Angel. She could be in the show but not work for Wolfram and Hart.

i know what u mean season 3 was great the story lines the acting everything but then it felt like season 4 just dropped..the Connor and Cordy thing was WRONG AND GROSS and it seemed to take over the season (but remember joss and the gang weren't expecting Cordy to be really pregnant) then the jasmine thing just popped up and everyones always happy and smiley there were only a couple of episodes in the season i enjoyed like the magic bullet but even though this season wasn't the best a agree that it led to my favorite season of all i just wished Cordy was in it

[Whedon Fan]

I always took it as evil cordy and the beast wanted to blot out the sun so that when Angelus came back he could more or less do what he wanted day or night as there would be no sun. They planned on trying to control him but obviously Angelus wasn't interested. The Beast would have eventually killed him if he kept on ignoring him and cordy but Angelus killed him first. When Cordy gave birth Jasmine changed her plans with no Best and no Angekus to help her she decided to try and help them gain happiness but what she was snealky doing en slaving them, taking away there free will and as we saw near the end of the season she asked for a temple. This shows that if she had lived longer she would have asked for more and more and what if one day they say no?


This is my theory anyway and I have always pretty much understood S4. I loved it and has some of my fav episodes in it. The only thing I hated was Jasmine. Loved Angelus, evil cordy byt Jasmine was just weird. It is understandable though as she was never even going to be in it. But when Charisma Carpenter got pregnent in real life they had to quickly re write alot of the season. The orignial idea was at the end there was going to be a huge fight between Team Angel and Evil Cordy who was actually meant to be alot more powerful and stromger and all of this would have been brilliant...I think I read at some pont that she was even going to get killed. So imagine how evil she would have been for Angel to kill her.

[artiswar]

Season 4 is kind of frustrating because it has some of the best elements of the entire series, and also some of the worst. In a lot of ways the season is a tragic victim of circumstance, as i understand it Charisma had some sort of falling out with joss and the writers, and her pregnancy pretty much forced them to rewrite the latter half of the season in a short amount of time, so it's a big tease to wonder about what might have been. But despite it's downfalls, Season 4 had me hooked most of the way through, even though there was stuff I hated. Possibly the one thing that bugged me beyond all belief was the freakin Connor Cordelia thing. God, that was just disturbing. I always fast forward the last few minutes of Apocalypse Nowish because the sex scene and the pre-talk makes feel like hurling. The other main problem of the season is the tragic misuse of Charisma Carpenter. I personally don't feel like her character had that much more oppertunity to grow, since her final moment of Season 3 was pretty much the peak of her character arc. She made the most selfless decision of her life, and sacrificed a deep potential love and all her friends for the greater good. I'm sure the writers could have done other stuff with her if they wanted to, but I feel it was a strong way to end her arc on (despite the fact that the whole thing was a dupe). But I just don't buy Cordy as the big evil. CHarisma is amazing at playing the b*tch, but really bad at playing the big bad while pretending to be good, and her manipulation of Connor was difficult to watch. But beyond all that, my biggest gripe with this season is probably the fact that all the events and character development are forgotten utterly for the entire last season until the last 3 or 4 episodes, which pisses me off (even though it led to an amazing plot in Origin). But before I digress further, there's a lot to love about season 4. It's arguably the darkest season in the ENTIRE Buffyverse, rivaling only Buffy Season 6. I think that's a big part in why a lot of people hate it, and the reason why I love it. The writers pull the rug out from under the viewer constantly in this season, build up your hopes for a happy ending, and tear them down spectacularly. I mean, come on. Every possible thing that could go wrong, does. The characters are bombarded with hopeless situations, and as the season progresses, instead of the problems slowly working themselves out, more problems besiege the characters, and for the most part this season I was really unsure if the gang could make it out of this in one piece.This is important because in most shows, you always know hat good will prevail, and there is no real sense of danger, but in Angel season 4 I had pretty much accepted that my loved characters were going to be crushed and obliterated by the impending doom. Okay, this is getting very lengthy, but i want to get a few more things in here... One of th other best aspects of this season is the HUGE a$$ arc. The entire season more or less feels like one giant long episode, and perhaps this is why I was so hooked. There were maybe one or two monster of the week episodes past the first 5 episodes, after that everything was one long story. This really appeals to me, because I'm a sucker for long multi-layered story arcs. Plus, the whole Angelus-Faith arc is freakin awesome, and they get to bring in Alyson Haniggan which is always a joy. And man, is Angelus evil or what, how can you not love SOulless where he tears apart the gang from behind a steel cage in true lecter hannibal fashion. You know you're evil when you can rain destruction with just your mouth.

[artiswar]

One other thing I need to add is abotu COnnor. The season leads you to pretty much despise this mentally challenged kid, but the last few episodes really save his character arc for me and turn it into something amazingly poignant. As much as he gets on my nerves a lot of the time, I can't help but tear up when he spills his guts to a comatose Cordelia in the church in one of the last episodes. I like the fact how in Home his mind just snaps and he goes postal because from the minute he returned in late Season 3, this was the inevitable end for him. I mean seriously. As much of an ass as he is, you gotta sympathize with him. He is not over exagerrating when he says that his entire existence was lie after lie. He was an innocent kid who had to grow up in an unspeakable hell dimension with a supposed loving father who abused him and turned out to be nothing but an enemy of his true father and was using him as a means of revenge on his real father who happened to be a famous psychotic killer. He lost his childhood because of things out of his control, his parents were creatures he grew up to despise, his mother killed herself with him in her womb, and from day one this kid has been nothing but manipulated by people for their own ends, even once he comes back to LA. sure some of those people had good intensions, but no one was straight with him, lying to him for "his own good" or otherwise. Everything about his life was a lie. I wish this was fleshed out in some kind of quortoth origins episode to really show us what he's been through, but oh well. his ending is poignant, as the one person who loves him the most gives him one more lie to live with, but perhaps one better than the rest, a loving family.

As for the Jasmine arc... to me it further made things even more hopeless for the characters than before by taking away their will to fight while completely changing the tone of the show. Even though i never watch those episodes as standalones when i'm bored, i think they worked in the framework of the season and were a nice curveball. I think Jasmine's ultimate flaw is she's so humorless. if she was a but more like the mayor maybe i'd like her better. I wish SHiny Happy People and Magic Bullet had been combined and condensed into a shorter but better episode, then i would have enjoyed the arc a bit better. but whatever, i'll leave it at that for now. those are, in a nutshell, my thoughts on season 4. Even though I loved it and hated it, i gotta say i was hooked through out... and for the haters, at the very least you have to throw it a bone for having the series' hands down best season premiere in Deep Down, and the coolest expository finale since buffy's Restless in Home.

[Paul]

Sorry for dredging an an old thread, I was going to start a new one and figured since this already existed...

Anyway, I've been watching Angel season four lately and have been enjoying it a lot. I knew this was one of the most despised seasons of either show, so I wanted to take a moment to balance out the hate. First of all, I really like some of the religious themes and imagery in this season. The Beast is your classic devil with horns and cloven feet, whereas Jasmine is a beautiful, glowing goddess. This is also one of the most epic, apocalyptic seasons of Buffy or Angel. Blocking out the sun and the rain of fire are beautiful concepts, and there's a real sense of city-wide chaos during the Beast's reign. Later on, this sense of scale is continued via Jasmine with the entire city of L.A. acting as her private army. The threat-level never felt higher on Angel than during this season.

The worst thing about season four is the character assasination of Cordelia. This was truly ill-advised and I don't defend it, but when you know in advance that it's not really her, it's more forgivable, especially since she redeems herself spectacularly next season. The worst part for me is before she kills Lilah, and we have to put up with a horribly bland (and frankly rather ugly - not Carpenter's best hair/costume) impersonation of Cordelia. Once she starts acting openly evil, it's more enjoyable and she actually has some amusing moments; one of my favourites being: Willow: "Are you thinking the same as I am?" / Cordelia: [About to stab Willow to death] "I doubt it." As for the ever controversial Cordelia/Connor relationship, I'm going to commit Buffyverse blasphemy by saying I don't mind it that much. Again, obviously a horrible move for Cordelia, but I kind of dug the twistedness of their relationship. It was creepy, but in a deliberate way, and I really liked their disturbing theme tune. The scene where Cordelia is manipulating Connor into murdering an innocent girl is pretty brilliant because it's just so effed up.

Other aspects of the season... we had a cool new character in the form of Gwen who had a poignant and memorable sub-story despite appearing in only three episode. I wasn't a huge fan of Angelus; it was a good idea to bring him back and the story worked, but Boreanaz irritated me with his OTT performance. I felt like wrapping his mouth in duct tape to get him to shut up, something I never did during S2 of Buffy. Faith's return was much-better and her episodes were some of the best of the season. She appears so rarely in the verse that her appearances always feel special. "Orpheus" was a great episode and Willow is like a bright ray of sunshine, reminding us all that Buffy is the far superior series. It's weird how we take her for granted on Buffy, but her appearance here is a big event. The main Angel characters all get good development this season; Wesley's relationship with Lilah becomes geuinely touching and he's nicely conflicted, Fred is much stronger and "Shiny Happy People"/"Magic Bullet" are her best moments, Gunn irritated me at the start of season with his constant jealousy over Wesley but is cool in "Players" has a sad character arc as the team continue to take him for granted. I think it was a good idea to write W&H out of the show for a while, since they are a bit overused in the series and it was nice to see something different.

My favourite part of the season is Jasmine and her story. Contrary to popular belief, I think she's one of the scariest and most effective villains in the Buffyverse and Gina Torres is excellent. I'm agnostic leaning towards atheism, and, while I respect other people's right to believe what they want, I think organised religion is a bad idea. I've met a lot of people who condemn homosexuality based on religious beliefs and use the Bible to justify bigotry. I also disagree with the way religion is taught to children in schools, akin to brainwashing. I'm saying all this because I think the Jasmine story really highlights how dangerous religion can be; people mindlessly following a higher being who preaches love and doing unspeakable things in it's name. They don't ask questions, they just do things because Jasmine tells them to (the way some people hate gay people because of what the Bible says). It's great how Jasmine is a very warm and likable character at first, you almost forget the characters are under a spell because she is so charming. But then she shows her true colours as a frightening dictator. I love the shot of her laughing maniacally as cuts appear and disappear on her body, you see how crazy she is. I love the concept of one the Powers That Be actually becoming a physical character because they're such a huge part of the show's history, and having her be the main villain of the season is totally unexpected. The chararcters have been complaining about the PTB's inactivity for years, and now we see what happens when one of them decides to take an active role. The episodes where Fred is completely alone in a city full of Jasmine followers were a pretty scary version of the classic pod people story.

I'd say that season four is like most of Angel; seriously flawed but still full of excellent material. People say the storyline is too complicated, but I just go with it. Yeah, there are a few plot holes if you stop and think "why did Jasmine need to do that?" but it's all explainable by the technobabble concept that they were "birthing pains". Maybe all that rain of fire stuff needed to happen so that Jasmine could be born, who knows how the Buffyverse works on a metaphysical level. After a slow start, the season builds momentum and soon becomes very compelling and entertaining. I think it's probably easier to watch as a DVD marathon than during the original TV run, which is why I don't share fandom's bad feeling for it (I never watched Buffy or Angel on TV). People focus too much on the bad stuff (Cordy/Connor, plot holes) and ignore all the great stuff. Personally, season four is my second favourite year of Angel after season five.

[snizapman6294]

season 4 was always my second favorite (5 being 1st)... i just didn't like Conner banging cordelia

[Paul]

Mar 3, 2009 8:12:34 GMT -5 snizapman6294 said:

season 4 was always my second favorite (5 being 1st)... i just didn't like Conner banging cordelia

Yeah, 5 is my favourite, then 4, 2, 3, and 1.

[snizapman6294]

mine actually is 5, 4, 3, 2, 1... hahah...

[Randi Giles]

I almost done re-watching season four and I find myself liking season 4 even more. So I want to get a few of my thought down. The Cordelia/Jasmine and Connor I realized was more than disgusting, but sick, twisted and weird. They even had their own creepy background music. I have to say Charisma Carpenter did a better job playing evil once the gang found her out. Those looks she gave the gang while fleeing with Connor in Inside Out was so devilish. I think my main and others problem with season four was that we never got to see Cordy ever again until season five. Not counting before Spin the Bottle when she had no memory of course. After that having Jasmine be the main driver of Cordelia almost ruined her character and that really bothers me. Luckily my love for Cordelia still goes on.
I know many people didn't liked the whole Beast blotting out the sun and rain of fire. Or saw no point of it, but we can't deny it was awesome to watch. I didn't care for Angelus this season though. He was pretty lame and nothing can top the way he was in BTVS season two. The reason he was brought back was lame as well. Then again I guess that only bought Jasmine time to survive before giving birth to herself knowing Angel would kill her if she was in Cordy or not. One more thing. I absolutely hate that Lilah was killed off. I already liked the idea of Wes and Lilah and I think I loved them even more after this re-watch. It was so sad watching him decapitate her. And I hated watching evil Cordy kill her.

[rufio]

Yeah Lilah was amazing. It sucked that she got killed off, but I think it was a nice move on the writers part to cut her out right before the gang moved into Wolfram & Hart. It makes the first four seasons of Lilah working there seem more mysterious & intriguing. Although, she may have added a nice element to Season 5 while the gang was at W&H. I thought Eve as Lilahs replacement was seriously lame. Eve was not a very intriguing character in my opinion.

Season four is the most amazing season in my opinion. Aside from Cordelias shenanigans this season, it is the strongest in terms of story intensity. I think the Beast & Jasmine are excellent villains, even though the story became convoluted. Cordelia is really one of the best characters in the verse and they could've done SO much with her- in the end, it is a really disappointing end for a beloved character. I mean, couldn't they have hid CC's real life pregnancy and worked the story a little differently, without destroying Cordelias character in that way??

[VampSlayer]

Um, Season Four is that epic. Hahaha.