Joe
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Post by Joe on Jun 2, 2008 19:34:44 GMT -5
okay so we all know that Cordy being possessed and turning evil was the worst thing that happened to Angel. When I watch the fourth season I pretend it's not Cordy from the beginning. I just think that Cordy went to the higher plane and never came back. I don't even want to think for a moment that the Cordy from this season was the real one. It makes me puke thinking about it.  . Seriously. I feel so bad for the people that watched the fourth season with everyone else for the first time and thought it was really Cordy making those decisions. I'm so glad I could find out before hand, but still! I just wanted to know what your feelings are on Cordelia being possessed, and how you dealt with it. And I'm not a Cordy-hater, she was one of my favorite Charactors on Angel. It just disqusts me when I think about how she was in Season 4.  |
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Post by Emmie on Jun 2, 2008 19:41:26 GMT -5
I was one of those poor suckers who saw it for the first time as it aired. After every episode I was "wtf is going on with Cordy?" and stopped watching halfway through the season. The next year after Buffy was cancelled I went back to watching Angel since it was the only Buffyverse on air - my favorite season of Angel.
I just rewatched AtS season 4 and whenever Cordy/Connor scenes came up I fastfowarded - I made myself watch the Angel/Cordy scenes because they had story relevance though I wanted to fastforward. Season 4 minus Cordy/Connor was awesome imo.
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artiswar
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Post by artiswar on Jun 2, 2008 19:44:48 GMT -5
It WASN'T Cordy. After the Season 3 finale we don't see Cordy again until Season 5.
When Cordy comes back in Season 4 she doesn't have her memories, and I'd argue that Cordy with no memories isn't REALLY Cordy. Memories of experiences that shaped you are a major part of a person's personality. After Spin The Bottle, Jasmine takes full control over Cordy till she gives birth to herself and Cordy falls into a coma for a long time. Therefore, we never really see Cordy in season 4. The closest being teen-Cordy in Spin The Bottle.
I hate what they did to Cordy in Season 4, and I think it's the ugliest blemish on what is otherwise one my favorite seasons of the show's run. But I hate Charisma more than the writer's cause it was her fault for being irresponsible and not letting the writers and Joss know she was expecting a baby until it was way too late. Shame on Charisma. I still lover her. But that was just stupid of her, and it's a slap in the face to Joss. Plus, Charisma and Vincent don't have a shred of chemistry together, and all their scenes feel drawn out and range from mildly offensive to burn-my-eyes-out wretched. The only good scene they share is in Apocalypse Nowish in a dream sequence in which Cordy tries to explain to Connor that something terrible is coming and no one can stop it. It's good because Charisma carries the entire thing and it sends major chills down my spine everytime I watch it. I think it was her only piece of good acting in the entire season (except for Spin The Bottle of course).
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jun 2, 2008 19:56:55 GMT -5
I can't remember if I knew that Cordy was "possessed" or not when watching, but season 4 is the season I hate the most of all Buffy&Angel seasons (yep, it beat season 6 of Buffy). I don't know if Charisma screw up the season or not, because I can't watch the season with objective eyes. I can't watch Cordy, wondering "Is that all Jasmine or is that part Cordelia? Did the real Cordy have to see it all happen? How was she feeling?"
I was so relived when it was revealed that she was possessed, not that she'd turned evil.
I jump from scene to scene, never watching an entire episode, because it feels so wrong. Not only because of Cordy, but because of Connor, Jasmine, Fred dumping Gunn in such a mean way, Wesley being all lonely and everyone blaming him and the memory-spells. I hate that season.
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Rachster
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Post by Rachster on Jun 2, 2008 19:59:53 GMT -5
Ok i must be one in a million but, When i first watched season 4 i had no idea Cordy was evil after all she had changed so much already, going from a spoiled little bitca to little miss perfect so quickly.. anyway by the time i found out Cordy was evil it was a massive shock to me and that season turned out great!
I know when i re watch it i think things like why is Cordy/jasmine having that dream about the beast? and other things like that but the first time i watched it things like that just didn't matter, like artiswar said Charisma should of told joss about being pregnant she left him out in the cold and he had to do alot to work it into the story and also to hide it because he didn't want another season about a pregnancy like season 3 with Darla so i think even after all this joss did a great job with a big problem.
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Post by buffyfan21 on Jun 2, 2008 21:55:28 GMT -5
okay so we all know that Cordy being possessed and turning evil was the worst thing that happened to Angel. When I watch the fourth season I pretend it's not Cordy from the beginning. I just think that Cordy went to the higher plane and never came back. I don't even want to think for a moment that the Cordy from this season was the real one. It makes me puke thinking about it. . Seriously. I feel so bad for the people that watched the fourth season with everyone else for the first time and thought it was really Cordy making those decisions. I'm so glad I could find out before hand, but still! I just wanted to know what your feelings are on Cordelia being possessed, and how you dealt with it. And I'm not a Cordy-hater, she was one of my favorite Charactors on Angel. It just disqusts me when I think about how she was in Season 4. I completely agree with you. The part that made me sickest of all was the whole Connor/Cordy thing. Yuck! |
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Post by Wyndam on Jun 2, 2008 22:14:38 GMT -5
It WASN'T Cordy. After the Season 3 finale we don't see Cordy again until Season 5. When Cordy comes back in Season 4 she doesn't have her memories, and I'd argue that Cordy with no memories isn't REALLY Cordy. Memories of experiences that shaped you are a major part of a person's personality. After Spin The Bottle, Jasmine takes full control over Cordy till she gives birth to herself and Cordy falls into a coma for a long time. Therefore, we never really see Cordy in season 4. The closest being teen-Cordy in Spin The Bottle. I hate what they did to Cordy in Season 4, and I think it's the ugliest blemish on what is otherwise one my favorite seasons of the show's run. But I hate Charisma more than the writer's cause it was her fault for being irresponsible and not letting the writers and Joss know she was expecting a baby until it was way too late. Shame on Charisma. I still lover her. But that was just stupid of her, and it's a slap in the face to Joss. Plus, Charisma and Vincent don't have a shred of chemistry together, and all their scenes feel drawn out and range from mildly offensive to burn-my-eyes-out wretched. The only good scene they share is in Apocalypse Nowish in a dream sequence in which Cordy tries to explain to Connor that something terrible is coming and no one can stop it. It's good because Charisma carries the entire thing and it sends major chills down my spine everytime I watch it. I think it was her only piece of good acting in the entire season (except for Spin The Bottle of course). I agree with everything you said artiswar. I absolutely love Season 4. It's my second favorite season of Angel, and I enjoy watching every episode (although some of the last few are a little weak). My only problem with the season was what happened with Cordy, but like you said, that wasn't entirely the fault of the writers. They were put into a difficult position, and I think the season that resulted was just outstanding. |
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artiswar
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Post by artiswar on Jun 2, 2008 22:45:17 GMT -5
What is your favorite season Wyndam?
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Post by Wyndam on Jun 2, 2008 22:46:54 GMT -5
What is your favorite season Wyndam? Season 5. I actually think Angel got better every season, so I always rank the seasons (from favorite to least) in descending order: 5 > 4 > 3 > 2 > 1. |
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artiswar
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Cool... what's a rogue demon??[Mo0:0]
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Post by artiswar on Jun 2, 2008 22:48:56 GMT -5
I think Season 5 is also my favorite... The first half I think is pretty weak except for 4 exceptional episodes (Life Of The Party, Damage, Destiny, Lineage), but the second half is SO good that it warrants the title of Best Season.
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jason321
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Post by jason321 on Jun 2, 2008 23:37:09 GMT -5
Im actually not opposed to the idea of an Evil Cordelia. If Angel S4 were a book or comic, I think it could have been a good story. The problem is that Angel is a TV show, and the idea of an Evil Charisma Carpenter is terrible. We're talking about one of the most blatantly limited actors in the 'verse. Her strengths come in her charm, humor, and, well, charisma. Writing her as angst-ridden and serious for half a season and then cackling and evil for the other completely misses the point of what makes the character great and results in bad TV. Its like casting Mary Tyler Moore as a villian. Its just dumb.
Similiarly, the Cordy/Conner hook up isn't a terrible story idea. The two people the main protagonist loves most betray him. Sure its gross, but its a classic story idea. The problem is that theres no chemistry between the actors of any sort. The writers should have known this as the Cordy/Conner scene in Benediction might be one of the worst Real!Cordy scenes ever. But they insisted on having a billion scenes between the two anyway, resulting in BAD TV.
Basically the writers were hellbent to tell an Evil Cordy story to such an extent that they ignored all the signs that showed it was a bad idea. So I can't feel too bad for them that it blew up in their faces, hurt ratings and essentially turned Angel into a "bubble" show.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jun 3, 2008 0:23:33 GMT -5
I like that Charisma and eh... Can't remember or spell his name, don't have the best chemistry, because I always thought that C&Cs relathionship should be forced. For example, when Cordy relevals that she's pregnant. For several epsiodes Connor seemed to come to terms with that Cordy didn't want him, then all of a sudden he had to be with her(make her a honorble woman), because of the baby. He finally had a family, he belonged, but not in the best way, so they should seem... unchemistry.
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Joe
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Obsessive Paranoid Boob
"Gypsies are filthy people! We shall speak of zem no more!" *spits* -Ilona Costa Bianchi[Mo0:0]
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Post by Joe on Jun 3, 2008 7:39:45 GMT -5
Yea I don't have anything against the season. I think it's pretty entertaining. It's just the Cordelia thing... and the Connor thing.........  . And Joss was saying, even if Charisma wasn't pregnant, he still would've made her evil, but her and Angel would duke it out in the finale. I still don't think I would like that, b/c she would've been evil. |
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Post by Emmie on Jun 3, 2008 8:00:10 GMT -5
I feel that making Cordelia evil was a bad plan on Joss' part. Charisma never gave me the 'oooo evil' chills. So regardless of her becoming pregnant and making it necessary to include a Jasmine-gives-birth-to-herself storyline, I still think Evil Cordy was kinda dead in the water. CC is amazing for comedy and playing the superficial bitchy side of life, but she's not ultimate Big Bad material.
David Boreanaz as evil = great
Alexis Denisof as evil = great (even though he was never truly evil, he could've played it easily imo)
Amy Acker turned Illyria dark = freaking awesome
But Carpenter playing an evil character didn't work on the delivery for me, nor did Alyson Hannigan's delivery of Dark Willow. Not to say that the last episodes of Btvs season 6 weren't great but Hannigan's lines weren't exactly striking terror. Thinking back to Doppelgangland, Hannigan played a great crazy/unstable evil but it was Nicolas Brendan who's evil persona actually felt more dark and threatening.
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jason321
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Post by jason321 on Jun 3, 2008 9:12:12 GMT -5
And Joss was saying, even if Charisma wasn't pregnant, he still would've made her evil, but her and Angel would duke it out in the finale. I still don't think I would like that, b/c she would've been evil. Yes, and I have no doubt that Angel would have killed Cordy in the finale had it gone the way it was originally supposed to. Which is why I think Charisma getting pregnant "saved" the character in the end. They probably figured Cordy dying giving birth mid-season would make a pretty unspectacular ending for such a major character so they went with the coma thing instead. Though the season probably would have been better as a whole without the Charisma pregnancy. Because the Jasmine episodes really do feel like a tacked on coda. But Carpenter playing an evil character didn't work on the delivery for me, nor did Alyson Hannigan's delivery of Dark Willow. Not to say that the last episodes of Btvs season 6 weren't great but Hannigan's lines weren't exactly striking terror. Thinking back to Doppelgangland, Hannigan played a great crazy/unstable evil While I think Dark Willow stunk up the joint, I at least give them credit that they'd tested the waters first with Vamp Willow to see if Alyson could pull off a Big Bad(she couldnt in the end, but whatever). Similiarly, Joss knew that Amy could do Illyria from the Shakespeare readings at his house. The writers had zero basis for knowing whether Charisma could do evil or not, and the show suffered because of their assumptions. |
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Post by buffyfan21 on Jun 4, 2008 8:06:42 GMT -5
I would say that season 5 is my fave season also. All the episodes from this season were just spectacular in my opinion.
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. And Joss was saying, even if Charisma wasn't pregnant, he still would've made her evil, but her and Angel would duke it out in the finale. I still don't think I would like that, b/c she would've been evil.