artiswar
Novice Witch
Cool... what's a rogue demon??[Mo0:0]
Posts: 260
|
Post by artiswar on Jun 16, 2008 9:42:40 GMT -5
So something's been really irking me about this episode recently... So Angel and co decide that they're going to go out in a blaze of Glory by assassinating the members of the Black Thorn and stop the machine of the Senior Partners for one moment in time and inspire future generations of champions in waiting. I'm cool with that, but one problem... When Angel is giving out the jobs, why in god's name did he send his friend's all on solo missions?? Since the the whole premise of the season has been to take the power of Wolfram and Hart and wield it for the forces of good, why not utilize it and send out some major man power to take care of these missions??
I understand sending Illyria to assassinate a few members by herself, she is a badass and can pretty much handle herself, and same goes for Spike... But why the hell send Wesley alone to face off against a very powerful sorcerer who has enough power to ERASE AND RECREATE FREAKIN MEMORY. Okay, so he had a suspicion that Wes was gonna betray Angel, but so what? Why not send in some Snipers for support or something?? And Gunn? They send him to take out a bunch of vampires... One human versus half a dozen vampires? Unless you're the Slayer, your odds aren't very good. Why not send a team along for his disposal? I get that they're figuratively throwing themselves on the sword with this entire mission, but do they have to make it literal suicide? I guess they're trying to prove that they dont need Wolfram and Hart or whatever, but damn, they all have their own departments and resources, this has been established since day one, so why completely drop them in the moment when they might be needed most?
This whole thing hasn't occurred to me before until a few days ago and it's really buggin me.
|
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Jun 16, 2008 9:48:34 GMT -5
My best guess is that in order to keep the plan secret and maximize the possibility of successfully assassinating all the members of the Black Thorn, they had to only use the inside circle. Using W&H's resources would've tipped off Hamilton and the Senior Partners. So it was secret ops work and they had to keep it low-profile.
|
|
|
|
Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jun 16, 2008 10:46:09 GMT -5
Like Emmie said, if Angel used the senior powers troops I think the senior partners would find out about it... You don't get that powerful without watchng out for your interests.
Angel only trusted his closest "friends", and he knew that he only had a certain amount of time before the partners would fight back, so he had to send them out on different missions. If they would attack as a group, they wouldn't have had time to assassin that many before the army of demons came.
Btw, I think they whole idea was meaningless. They could have tried to find a way to actually finish the senior partners once and for all, instead of killing a few pawns. I get that a season final where we see the group doing reasearch and saying "We'll fight another day" isn't as exiting as an heroic suicide, but come on, that was just useless. If they all were dying froms some mystical disease I would get it, but they could have lived a long time, fighting the fight. Although if I had lost one of my friends(Fred) I might be a bit suicidal too, but it was not a rational plan.
|
|
artiswar
Novice Witch
Cool... what's a rogue demon??[Mo0:0]
Posts: 260
|
Post by artiswar on Jun 16, 2008 10:59:31 GMT -5
You guys bring up a good point, but the Black Thorn weren't expecting the attack, they were going about their business and had other things on their minds, ie, the senator was worried about the election. Even if the Senior Partners were tipped off at some point, it would have been too late. The Members would have been offed a mere hour after the departments or recruits were enlisted to back up the Angel team, if that.
I myself love the resolution (or lack there-of), I think it's a poignant end to the series. I don't think they were suicidal. They knew that they weren't going to live forever, and that sooner or later someone else will have to take their place in the fight against evil. That time was now. Their selfless act of throwing the middle finger in the Senior partner's faces, and showing them their not gonna take it, that mankind isn't powerless and can actually fight the senior partners was meant to go down in history, a springboard for new heroes lying in wait to be inspired by them and take their place in the never ending battle. Cause the wheel never stops turning.
|
|
|
|
Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jun 16, 2008 11:11:50 GMT -5
You guys bring up a good point, but the Black Thorn weren't expecting the attack, they were going about their business and had other things on their minds, ie, the senator was worried about the election. Even if the Senior Partners were tipped off at some point, it would have been too late. The Members would have been offed a mere hour after the departments or recruits were enlisted to back up the Angel team, if that. I don't get your POV. I expect that the senior partners had the Black thorn members under survelliance all the time. How else could the army be gathered so quickly? It was good that each one of the gang had their own mission, otherwise the army would have been over them before they had time to kill all members. I seriously doubt that the senior partners would have been dumb enough to not keep an eye over all the manpower at all time, in case Angel would use them against the partners. I guess we have different views on the senior partners efficency. |
|
artiswar
Novice Witch
Cool... what's a rogue demon??[Mo0:0]
Posts: 260
|
Post by artiswar on Jun 16, 2008 11:21:29 GMT -5
The catch here is we really don't know a single thing about the relation between the Senior Partners and the Black Thorn, except that they're their hand on our plane. I guess they'd be keeping surveillance, but how strict that surveillance would be is up to speculation. Judging by Even and Hamilton, the Partners would have installed one member to keep tabs on everyone else. However, outside the meetings, I don't think they were being followed or anything like that... If they were under constant surveillance like you said, I don't see the difference between Angel and co killing them off, or Angel and co along with a bunch of manpower.
-edit-
As for the army, we aren't told how that came about either, but my impression was that The Senior Partners tore the fabric of reality and pored a bunch of demons from a different dimension into our plane, kinda like what happened when Dawn was bled on the tower by Glory. But of course, according to the comics, LA was plunged into hell at this point.
|
|
|
|
Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jun 16, 2008 11:38:30 GMT -5
If they were under constant surveillance like you said, I don't see the difference between Angel and co killing them off, or Angel and co along with a bunch of manpower. . Well, if they gave an order to the manpower, I assumed that the senior partners would find out sooner, since I assume that all orders would go through a special magic database, so that the senior partners could organize and stuff. Isn't that what real armies do, keep records of orders and stuff? And since the order would go through the database faster than the surveillance would pick up Angel's "betrayal", the gang would win time without manpower. |
|
artiswar
Novice Witch
Cool... what's a rogue demon??[Mo0:0]
Posts: 260
|
Post by artiswar on Jun 16, 2008 11:56:54 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure the order would be a handshake deal, not something documented. Plus, if Hamilton doesn't know about it, then neither do the Senior Partners. He's been fooled before.
|
|
|
|
Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jun 16, 2008 12:14:48 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure the order would be a handshake deal, not something documented. Plus, if Hamilton doesn't know about it, then neither do the Senior Partners. He's been fooled before. Well yes, the senior would know if hamilton knew... wait, what? Where does Hamilton fit into this discussion? |
|
|
|
Post by dragonweaver on Jun 16, 2008 12:19:06 GMT -5
Got to go with Emmie & skytteflickan88. Angel couldn't risk using W&H resources or taking the time to fight certain Black Thorn members in a group.
For starters the employees (lawyers through special ops) never worked for Angel, they worked for and were loyal to Wolfram & Hart. Angel was just the guy giving orders, at the end of the day everyone, even Harmony, was still working toward the Senior Partners objectives.
Then there's the time factor. The Senior partners, while not directly connected to this dimension, still have a way of remaining in touch with their assets and interests. Like you said, Angel and company didn't know the extent of the Senior Partners connection to the Black Thorn and didn't know how quickly they would react to an attack on it's members. For all they knew an hour would be too much time to waste. The strike had to be quick and simultaneous.
Illyria & Spike were certainly able to handle themselves in a fight and could easily finish off several members quickly. Gunn was a proven fighter who'd been battling vampires long before meeting Angel and he did manage to kill all of them regardless of his injuries. Angel knew Lorne would have no trouble b/c Lindsey would never suspect that Lorne was there to assassinate him.
I will give you that Wesley was tragically over matched, but out of everyone there Wesley was the only one who could get in the door and have a remote shot at killing Cyvus Vail. Wesley might have succeeded to if he had acted quicker and gone for the kill instead of the hurt. I think Wesley underestimated his opponent b/c he looked weak and old. I know what you're thinking, Illyria killed Cyvus easily enough, but if she had been sent there instead Wesley he would have been on the defensive right away and would have fled. She only managed to kill him b/c he made the same mistake Wesley did and underestimated her cause she looked like Fred.
|
|
artiswar
Novice Witch
Cool... what's a rogue demon??[Mo0:0]
Posts: 260
|
Post by artiswar on Jun 16, 2008 13:12:02 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure the order would be a handshake deal, not something documented. Plus, if Hamilton doesn't know about it, then neither do the Senior Partners. He's been fooled before. Well yes, the senior would know if hamilton knew... wait, what? Where does Hamilton fit into this discussion? ...The only way the Partners would know if Angel had recruited some members of the departments at W&H is if Hamilton knew. Since he's their eyes on the inside. Dragonweaver, I agree, I don't think Wes ever stood a chance. That also bugged me. You guys give good points about why Angel couldn't use the manpower of W&H, but I still think it would have been a better idea to use them and take the risk, rather than send your friends out alone. Afterall, they're only strong when they're together. |
|
|
|
Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jun 16, 2008 13:35:24 GMT -5
Well yes, the senior would know if hamilton knew... wait, what? Where does Hamilton fit into this discussion? ...The only way the Partners would know if Angel had recruited some members of the departments at W&H is if Hamilton knew. Since he's their eyes on the inside. . Do you really think that the senior partners are careless enough only to relie on just one person to watch over the whole L.A. branch? Hamilton is just the only eyes that Angel know about, but they must, or should, have tons of ways to watch over Angel & the gang with cameras, spells & agents, etc etc. Perhaps they only have Hamiltion, but i assume they're not over confident. |
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Jun 16, 2008 13:43:51 GMT -5
If ever there had been a time to reach out to other fighters in LA outside of W&H, it was for the 'Not Fade Away' fight. Wes and Gunn were both severely outmatched.
Where's Groo at this point? AtF shows us he was in LA. Would've been nice for him to help. And was Gunn so completely cut off from his old gang, or maybe the gang could've evolved over the past 2 years and they would've been willing to help slay a demon senator and a bunch of vamps.
But really playing the "kill the Circle of the Black Thorn" plan smart would've meant RECRUITMENT. Preferably outside of W&H; hell they could've used some of that blood money to get the slaying wheels spinning. But it would've diminished the drama for the individual characters we care about. And the story's never been about winning where the good guys are always okay and there's never a price to be paid.
Maybe they could've used W&H's own resources to kill the Circle. It would've been delicious irony and a nice pay-off if they could finally use the resources of evil to fight evil. But that would have confirmed that they were right to take over W&H; that they could make a deal with the devil and win. I almost wish that had happened, but this is ANGEL we're talking about and that ending would be far too triumphant and self-congratulatory for a series about making mistakes and atonement.
|
|
artiswar
Novice Witch
Cool... what's a rogue demon??[Mo0:0]
Posts: 260
|
Post by artiswar on Jun 16, 2008 13:58:02 GMT -5
...The only way the Partners would know if Angel had recruited some members of the departments at W&H is if Hamilton knew. Since he's their eyes on the inside. . Do you really think that the senior partners are careless enough only to relie on just one person to watch over the whole L.A. branch? Hamilton is just the only eyes that Angel know about, but they must, or should, have tons of ways to watch over Angel & the gang with cameras, spells & agents, etc etc. Perhaps they only have Hamiltion, but i assume they're not over confident. Hamilton was a special being. They clearly had a lot of confidence in him since they gave him blood from their own veins. I doubt they'd do that for just a flunkie. And Emmie, oh there's no doubt that having them go off alone is important for the dramatic aspect, I just have a problem with from a practical sense. You make a good point, where hell was Groo, and yeah they should have used Gunn's old gang... But I personally think it would have been good if in the end they used W&H against the Senior Partners in some way, since that was the mission statement at the end of Conviction, and it would have wrapped up that important theme nicely, using the machine to make a difference. Oh well, it's still an amazing episode and a wonderful finale for the series, and I have far less problems with it than the series finale of Buffy. |
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Jun 16, 2008 14:00:19 GMT -5
Oh well, it's still an amazing episode and a wonderful finale for the series, and I have far less problems with it than the series finale of Buffy. I'm sensing another potential thread...  |
|
artiswar
Novice Witch
Cool... what's a rogue demon??[Mo0:0]
Posts: 260
|
Post by artiswar on Jun 16, 2008 14:01:10 GMT -5
Haha  nah. If one comes up. But that issue has been beaten into the ground by now. |
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Jun 16, 2008 14:04:55 GMT -5
oh there's no doubt that having them go off alone is important for the dramatic aspect, I just have a problem with from a practical sense. And really that's the greatest weakness/strength with both shows, that they sometimes compromise practicality and consistency in order to bolster the dramatic/emotional aspect of the story. |
|
|
|
Post by henzINNIT on Jun 16, 2008 14:54:12 GMT -5
Angel and Co. were completely cut off from anyone trustworthy. Even Buffy wouldn't speak to them. There was no way they would risk such a massive betrayal by hiring some mercenaries.
Also it should be noted that everyone but Wes succeeded so it clearly wasn't such a suicide mission. As Angel said, together the Black Thorn are powerful but apart they're just demons. It could be said that Wes only lost because he underestimated Vail.
|
|
