Men in the Buffyverse.

[snizapman6294]

i've noticed a pattern in mostly Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel:

Men are dicks. this is probably due to the absence of Joss' father when he was growing up.

Evidence:

Angel: Vampire, Has tried to kill Buffy on numerous occasions (As Angelus), has been known to go a little off of the deep end.

Rupert "Ripper" Giles: Pretty much the closest thing she's had to a dad, left her on many occasions, slept with Joyce.

Xander Harris: LEFT ANYA AT THE F*CKING ALTAR... known as one of the weaker characters.

Daniel "Oz" Osbourne: Left Willow after cheating on her with some skanky singer. Tried to kill my Tara!!

Riley Finn: Seen as the macho guy who Buffy can clearly take. Left her, after, needing a thrill and got it by being bitten by vampires.

William "The Bloody"/Spike: Tried to kill her throughout every season except 7, i think. Tried to rape Buffy. vampire. However, he did redeem himself in Buffy season 7 and Angel seasons 5, & 6

Warren Mears: Please don't even get me started.

Charles Gunn: Stereotypical "alpha male". Uses braun over brain. basically killed Fred. became a vampire and tried to end the world.

Wesley Wyndam-Pryce: Stereotypical Brit at first. Stuffy, follows the council with no questions asked. He is the opposite of Gunn because he followed his brain and kidnapped Connor at first sight of trouble and didn't look into it more.

Hank Summers: Cheated on Joyce (Speculative) and is clearly a deadbeat dad

i know a lot of this doesn't necessarily apply to a lot of the characters always, but at some point, most of the male characters have been known to make more life-altering mistakes.

also, i noticed that more female characters have died than male:

Female Characters (10 according to my count including buffy twice):
Buffy Summers (x2)
Jenny Calendar
Kendra Young
Joyce
Tara
Anya
Harmony
Fred
Cordelia

Male Characters (7)
Angel
Gunn
Wesley
Spike
Warren
Doyle
Lindsey

Being a guy, I feel like it's kind of unfair for 95% of men in the Buffyverse turn out to be complete douche bags...

Please, voice your opinions. all are welcome... if you agree say so! and if you completely disagree, say so too. also, if you wanna add anyone to the list that i have forgotten, let me know.

[The Night Lord]

Well, when you've put it all that way....why are us men portrayed as douche bags? The unfairness of it....
I'll get over it lol

[snizapman6294]

haha... i'll get over it too. i really think it's just Joss' famliy life that influenced his writing.

[Iceeh★]

Or maybe Joss is secretly a lesbian!

[snizapman6294]

hahaha... "GOD, WHAT KIND OF LESBIANS If you love men so much, Go LOVE MEN!"

[Greer]

Mar 22, 2009 23:17:46 GMT -5 snizapman6294 said:

haha... i'll get over it too. i really think it's just Joss' famliy life that influenced his writing.

Well, his dad wasn't around and I know his mom died when he was younger and I know that definitely influenced/created Joyce's death. So there's a reason for Buffy' parents at least.


But yea, men are portrayed horrendously in the Buffyverse. I'm pretty sure they're not all like that(I kid I kid:)). He wanted to show a female in power of a tv show, so I think that making a lot of the guys pricks at one time or another during the show facilitated the female empowerment--i.e. men could be horrible to them but they're all strong enough to live without them/defeat them in a supernatural way, just like Joss always used a defeat of a supernatural foe to symbolize an internal battle.

But, I'm never sure of why he hates guys so much in the show.

[Skytteflickan88]

I think you're being unfair to Giles(okay, tried to kill Spike, very, very bad) about him sleeping with Joyce, because he was under a spell, and he left Buffy to make her stronger(when he tried to push her away in season 4 doesn't count, and after Willow went bad in season 6, he had to leave again to help Willow).

I have never really thought that the men of the Buffyverse were worse than the women. And I'm not going to try to compare the sexes' sins with each other, but I just want to point out;


Xander Harris:
I have never really thought that the men of the Buffyverse were worse than the women. And I'm not going to try to compare the sexes' sins with each other, but I just want to point out;

Buffy Summers
Came back from LA in season 2 acting like a whore, left her friend and family after season 2

Jenny Calendar
Lied about why she was in Sunnydale.

Anya
Tortured, killed, you name it, for over a thousand years.

Harmony
Bully, big time. Also, she's dumb.

Fred
Was mean towards Wesley after he tried(okay failed) to save the baby.

Cordelia
BULLY. She improved, but man, she was a beep.

Amy
Mindcontrolled her teacher, did a love spell, messed around with people in The Bronze, did the spell on Willow, tortured Willow, blew up the castle.

Darla & Drusilla
Evil bloodsucking fiends. And in Season 2, while Angel was aslepp, I'm pretty sure Darla raped Angel when he was "dreaming".

Willow
Magic addiction, always wanting to to things the easy way, including controlling your girlfriend.


I honestly can't say that Joss only made the men douchebags. And many of mentioned douchebags, female and male, do improve.

[Paul]

Mar 23, 2009 8:06:56 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

I think you're being unfair to Giles(okay, tried to kill Spike, very, very bad) about him sleeping with Joyce, because he was under a spell, and he left Buffy to make her stronger(when he tried to push her away in season 4 doesn't count, and after Willow went bad in season 6, he had to leave again to help Willow).

I have never really thought that the men of the Buffyverse were worse than the women. And I'm not going to try to compare the sexes' sins with each other, but I just want to point out;


Xander Harris:
I have never really thought that the men of the Buffyverse were worse than the women. And I'm not going to try to compare the sexes' sins with each other, but I just want to point out;

Buffy Summers
Came back from LA in season 2 acting like a whore, left her friend and family after season 2

Jenny Calendar
Lied about why she was in Sunnydale.

Anya
Tortured, killed, you name it, for over a thousand years.

Harmony
Bully, big time. Also, she's dumb.

Fred
Was mean towards Wesley after he tried(okay failed) to save the baby.

Cordelia
BULLY. She improved, but man, she was a beep.

Amy
Mindcontrolled her teacher, did a love spell, messed around with people in The Bronze, did the spell on Willow, tortured Willow, blew up the castle.

Darla & Drusilla
Evil bloodsucking fiends. And in Season 2, while Angel was aslepp, I'm pretty sure Darla raped Angel when he was "dreaming".

Willow
Magic addiction, always wanting to to things the easy way, including controlling your girlfriend.


I honestly can't say that Joss only made the men douchebags. And many of mentioned douchebags, female and male, do improve.

Damn, I wanted to make a list like that and you beat me to it. Totally agree with you though, the females in the Buffyverse are just as morally ambiguous as the men. The only exceptions might be Tara and Fred, who are rather close to being Mary Sues.

I'd say that, of the main characters, Willow actually has the darkest and most dangerous personality. She's selfish, power-hungry, and irresponsible. And those aren't the result of "black magic" but her own humanity. So many fans choose to view Willow as sweet and innocent, but she's easily the darkest of the main characters. (Just to clarify, I love Willow the way she is and am not criticising her.)

[deathisyourgift]

Hmmm, are all males evil? No, but are all males perfect? No. I think that is the point being made here, that many guys, no matter what their intentions are, can do really shitty things. It just seems amplified because, as with all things in the Buffyverse, it's set against a demonic/super-hero background, so that the bad guys aren't just bad, they're evil, literally. The whole point of the show was to focus on a woman's journey through life, and Joss decided to frame this journey with the role of the Slayer, which makes everything that much more intense and literal in it's presentation.

A good point was made in the equally shitty actions of many of the female characters. I think that Joss just wants to make well-rounded, complete characters, and therefore he can't have anyone not messing up. Buffy herself, the friggin' hero of the whole world, royally screws up on more than one occasion, showing us that nobody is perfect and everyone has different ways of dealing.

The fact that there are more female deaths than male deaths is a bit odd, but it also makes sense. When Joss wants us to be emotionally wrecked, it's fair to say that his plan is somehow related to making some awful thing happen to one of the female characters. This is a trick that stories and films have been doing for centuries, hence the female 'damsel in distress'. I think it is done in a completely different way on this show and others that Joss created, but it is similar to the point that, well, we hate seeing these strong women get hurt.

So I guess the point I'm making here is that, it's not just that the men are being represented 'badly', it's that they're being represented 'fully', with many facets, and many different paths. The women of the show are given the same treatment, though we cannot forget that Buffy in particular is a semi-female-power show, so maybe it just doesn't happen as often to them.

[Emmie]

Mar 23, 2009 8:06:56 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

Buffy Summers
Came back from LA in season 2 acting like a whore, left her friend and family after season 2

Sky, I can definitely agree with your point here regarding the other characters in your list of 'Women Who Done Wrong' but damn. Buffy did not come back in season 2 acting like a whore. Whore? Call her a bitca, but no way it's okay to call her a whore. Not cool. It's way too harsh imo and not true.

[wenxina]

I think she meant "bitca" and not whore in the sense of sleeping around. You can count the number of partners that Buffy's had on one hand. In the course of over 8 years (over coz S8 timing is ambiguous).

[Greer]

I think she was being a bitca, but she was definitely acting along the lines of shifty morality when she was dancing with Xander. I think that's the context in which the "whore" line was intended, but she was definitely not a whore in the sleeping-around part, Buffy never has been.

[Skytteflickan88]

Mar 23, 2009 9:39:11 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Mar 23, 2009 8:06:56 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

Buffy Summers
Came back from LA in season 2 acting like a whore, left her friend and family after season 2

Sky, I can definitely agree with your point here regarding the other characters in your list of 'Women Who Done Wrong' but damn. Buffy did not come back in season 2 acting like a whore. Whore? Call her a bitca, but no way it's okay to call her a whore. Not cool. It's way too harsh imo and not true.

imo?

I wanted to make it short and to the point, and used the word "whore" to both describe her dancing and shutting her friends out(but mainly the dancing).

I'm sorry if you feel it was too harsh, but I still feel it describes her actions and attitude. I'm not saying that it's a word that should be used lightly or that Buffy was being a tramp otherwise than in that one scene, but this list was suppose to list the most aweful things the female characters had done, and Buffy playing around like that was one of them.

I think she acted like a whore. Bitca could describe her as well, but I wanted a sexual insult.


PS. If any prostitutes read this thread, I'm sorry for comparing you guys to When She Was Bad-Buffy. I do not think that all whores act that way towards friends.

[Emmie]

Mar 23, 2009 11:41:28 GMT -5 @mcbuffy said:

Mar 23, 2009 10:47:59 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

imo?

I wanted to make it short and to the point, and used the word "whore" to both describe her dancing and shutting her friends out(but mainly the dancing).

I'm sorry if you feel it was too harsh, but I still feel it describes her actions and attitude. I'm not saying that it's a word that should be used lightly or that Buffy was being a tramp otherwise than in that one scene, but this list was suppose to list the most aweful things the female characters had done, and Buffy playing around like that was one of them.

I think she acted like a whore. Bitca could describe her as well, but I wanted a sexual insult.


PS. If any prostitutes read this thread, I'm sorry for comparing you guys to When She Was Bad-Buffy. I do not think that all whores act that way towards friends.

(I feel the need to defend my hero here)

By defininition a whore is:

a woman who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse, usually for money; prostitute; harlot; strumpet.

Buffy did not engage in such an act/acts, there for calling her a whore is way too harsh.

This is exactly how I feel too. It truly doesn't describe Buffy's actions in When She Was Bad. She wasn't acting like a whore, she was being sexually provocative and manipulative, but not a whore. Bitch/Bitca fits her fine. But the other totally doesn't.

Mar 23, 2009 10:18:00 GMT -5 Greer said:

I think she was being a bitca, but she was definitely acting along the lines of shifty morality when she was dancing with Xander. I think that's the context in which the "whore" line was intended, but she was definitely not a whore in the sleeping-around part, Buffy never has been.

What other definition is there for a whore besides "sleeping around", though? It just doesn't fit or describe Buffy accurately at all during that episode. It's a word, I know - but calling a girl a whore is so baldfaced-ugly and nasty. It's the kind of epithet you throw out there when you HATE the person and they are truly low. It's the kind of word used when all doubt of that girl being good and a person in her own right is removed...she's just a whore.

It's just a really offensive word to describe Buffy. I can take Bitca because that's clearly what she was doing and Willow even described her as such.

[Skytteflickan88]

So I guess since we're splitting hairs and going all literal, we can't call her a b***h/bitca either. Unless she transforms into a female dog.



Sorry for the sarcasm, but I just had to write that.

I'm fine with you guys being sensitive about the use of the word "whore" and I'll try to remember to call her actions "slutty" next time.

Okay? We good?

[snizapman6294]

all good, Sky!

[Nina]

I do not really agree about the men being evil. (Actually I do think that they got an unfairtreatment in the 'verse.) But fathers are evil in the 'verse. From all the characters, only Connor and Fred have nice/good/decent fathers. Connor even has two; Angel and the new father he got in 'Home'. And mr. Burkle is of course a great guy ... love that man.

But;

Buffy and Dawn's father - deadbeat dad
Xander's father - abusing (?) white trash alcoholist.
Willow's father - always working, no involvement in his daughter's life at all.
Angel's father - religious prick who destroyed his son (of course he gets some slack for living in the 18th century)
Wesley's father - cold hearted man who locked his son up in a closet.
Cordelia's father - criminal and not a very warm relation with his daughter.
Holtz - Could be seen as Connor's father, and from what we know he was not a good father for Connor. But he probably was for his own kids once upon a time.
Tara's father - No need for an explanation.
Lorne's parents - they eat their kids (I know, different culture, but still.)
Doyle's father - He never met his father, probably another deatbeat father.
Kate's father - Not a bad man, but he will never win the proce for greatest father of the year. Not sure what to make of it, he was a bit cold and difficult. Not as bad as the most dads in this list.

We never met Gunn's father, but it wouldn't suprise me if he took off. Faith's daddy issues are enough to assume that she has some trouble as well with fathers. Wood is also raised by his mother and watcher, again a candidate for deatbeat dad of the year.

Did I miss a bad father?

[snizapman6294]

Nina, i agree... and just side note, alcoholist isn't a word. i don't think we can assume anything from Doyle's father though.

[Skytteflickan88]

Actually;

"An alternative term to refer to an alcoholic."

Not sure if you can find it in a ordinary dictionary but here www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=alcoholist

[Wyndam]

I think Buffy was confused and even angry, but certainly not a whore. That seems way too harsh. At the end of Season 1 The Master's plan more or less came to fruition. He killed Buffy and was free to walk the Earth. I'm not surprised Buffy had a few issues with that, considering (1) she was still so young, (2) she is supposed to protect the world and (3) she died.