Men in the Buffyverse.

[Nina]

Mar 23, 2009 12:53:11 GMT -5 snizapman6294 said:

Nina, i agree... and just side note, alcoholist isn't a word. i don't think we can assume anything from Doyle's father though.

Sorry, it's a Dutch word. I've the bad habit to introduce Dutch words in my Englisch posts.

And you're right that we can't just assume about Doyle's dad. Let's say it defferently, there is again a chance that the father took off. But it could be with good intentions. Only in a show where almost every dad is useless and bad, it's hard to believe that Doyles father did something right.

[snizapman6294]

right... no problem! hey, it's not really a big deal... i'm completely blanking since i haven't seen Angel season 1 in so long, did Doyle even mention his dad?

[Greer]

I remember him mentioning him,and it was definitely in a negative way. Which exact words, however, I don't remember.


Regarding the whore comment, I don't think Buffy was one! She was just dancing rather...unsavory like. That's all. She was all messed up during that episode, and who knows how she was able to deal with it. I think that definitely was the least of her problems.

[snizapman6294]

okay... yeah buffy was definately a bitca but not a whore.

[Paul]

Mar 23, 2009 17:29:34 GMT -5 snizapman6294 said:

right... no problem! hey, it's not really a big deal... i'm completely blanking since i haven't seen Angel season 1 in so long, did Doyle even mention his dad?

Not in canon, no (that I can remember), but he appears as the main villain the novel Monster Island. He's a pure-blood Brachen demon and leader of the Scourge, who comes to L.A. to avenge his son's death (by killing lots of half-breed demons). Bad fathers are actually a bit theme in the book, there's a scene where the Scoobies and Team Angel stand around talking about their deadbeat dads.

Btw, I think there is something of a sexism/feminism double standard in the Buffyverse. I mean, Warren and Caleb are rightfully abhorred for being disgusting and misogynistic (although I think they're both great characters) whereas Anya, who spend centuries hating and killing men, is seen as cute and funny. If there was a male vengeance demon who punished women, I doubt he'd be seen in such an endearing light as Anya. Just saying....

[snizapman6294]

i think with a lot of stuff in the Whedonverse, Things just happen. the acterss who was supposed to play Anya backed out when she learned it was just a 3 episode arc (i believe The Wish, The Prom, and Graduation Day (Part One)... and Anya ended up being a major character throughout most of th seires.

[Secret Scoobie]

I don't think Joss intended for any particular sex or group of people to be unfairly treated or represented in a bad light.

Joss and co make their characters HUMAN, and thus a lot of them have a little bad in them, because NO ONE is perfect. And also, because it's TV no one can have a PERFECT ending...(especially with Joss).

HUMAN people. Not bad males. Not bad females. Morally ambiguous HUMANS.

[Krescan]

I have to disagree with a few things.

I don't like Xander being labeled as one of the weaker characters. He had no Spider-Man moto for fighting the good fight. He did it out of loyalty to his friends and because it was the right thing to do. Every time he went into a battle he knew good and well it could be his last. Yeah what he did to Anya was wrong, but don't discount the fact that he gave her a semblance of a "life" and friends by sticking up for her int he first place. Also what he did to Cordeila...very bad. But don't forget his selfless act of buying her prom dress for her as well. Not to mention that he was instrumental in winning the fight in 3 of the 7 season finales.

Speaking of Xander and Cordy, don't forget that Willow cheated on OZ before he did it to her. Two wrongs don't make a right but Oz's wrong doesn't make his worse.

"Gunn basically killed Fred?" Why not say Fred killed Fred? She's the one that opened the sarcophagus. Heck why not lay it on Angel and Spike? Either way so long as we leave out his atonement for what he did by subjecting himself to having his heart cut out and shown to himself for two weeks straight.

And since you counted Harmony, Warren and Lindsey. You left out Johnathan and the 4 time death winner Darla.

I'm really not upset I just wanted to write something angrily, have a good day.

[snizapman6294]

hahaha... what you're saying is valid, but:

I don't like Xander being labeled as one of the weaker characters.

He had no powers, no abilities he brings to the Scoobies, and he's not one with the research... He could have his ass kicked by Buffy, Willow (if she used magic), Giles, Spike, Angel, and a lot of other characters... I'm not saying he's the weakest, i'm saying he's one of the weaker characters... I was only saying that he is one of the only characters throughout most of the series that hasn't shown true power, i.e. strength, magic, intelligence, etc.

3 of the 7 finales he was instrumental in all of them... except maybe season 5. that was the point of having the scooby gang... what three are you talking about? cuz

Season 1: Revived Buffy so she could stop The Master
Season 2: Saved Giles from being killed (not entirely a major player, but he saved someone[/b] mind you)
Season 3: he was Key Guy.
Season 4: Combined his essence with Buffy, Willow, and Giles in order to defeat Adam
Season 5: he was there, but he didn't do anything major, (debatably) unlike Willow. No real purpose...
Season 6: Two Words: Yellow. Crayon.
Season 7: Like season 5, he was there, he helped, but not a major player like Spike or any of the Slayers.

"Gunn basically killed Fred?" Why not say Fred killed Fred? She's the one that opened the sarcophagus. Heck why not lay it on Angel and Spike? Either way so long as we leave out his atonement for what he did by subjecting himself to having his heart cut out and shown to himself for two weeks straight.

The Senior Partners/The Circle of the Black Thorn sent the sarcophagus that killed her, and yes, Fred's curiosity was a factor, but Gunn sped up the process by letting the sarcophagus through customs earlier than it should've been... and i vaguely remember Gunn saying something to the effect of: "The sarcophagus was supposed to stay in customs, but somebody let it out."

[Krescan]

Good point on the seasons, I was actually going with S3 S4 and S6

Which puts him head and shoulders above Willow if we're counting numbers. I still stand behind my statement that Xander is one of the stronger characters, much more so than most others BECAUSE he has no powers.

And everyone else played just as much of a part in Fred's death as Gunn is my point and the fact that he sacrificed himself to try to make things right should count for something.

[Skytteflickan88]

Mar 30, 2009 14:18:00 GMT -5 Krescan said:

"Gunn basically killed Fred?" Why not say Fred killed Fred? She's the one that opened the sarcophagus. Heck why not lay it on Angel and Spike? Either way so long as we leave out his atonement for what he did by subjecting himself to having his heart cut out and shown to himself for two weeks straight.

Uhm... Fred looked hypnotized by the sacophagus, and even if she did open it of her own free will, that means she's not naive, not quilty.

Gunn is guilty. Not as quilty as the doctor or Knox but

"I couldn't go back... to being just the muscle. I—I didn't think it would be one of us. I didn't think it would be Fred."

does imply that he knew someone would get hurt.

He's done a lot of good, but he did get Fred killed. I don't think he'll ever do something as selfish again tough, but he does belong on the list.

But everything's relative.

[buffyrocksmylife]

Mar 22, 2009 22:59:37 GMT -5 snizapman6294 said:

i've noticed a pattern in mostly Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel:

Men are dicks. this is probably due to the absence of Joss' father when he was growing up.

Evidence:

Angel: Vampire, Has tried to kill Buffy on numerous occasions (As Angelus), has been known to go a little off of the deep end.

Rupert "Ripper" Giles: Pretty much the closest thing she's had to a dad, left her on many occasions, slept with Joyce.

Xander Harris: LEFT ANYA AT THE F*CKING ALTAR... known as one of the weaker characters.

Daniel "Oz" Osbourne: Left Willow after cheating on her with some skanky singer. Tried to kill my Tara!!

Riley Finn: Seen as the macho guy who Buffy can clearly take. Left her, after, needing a thrill and got it by being bitten by vampires.

William "The Bloody"/Spike: Tried to kill her throughout every season except 7, i think. Tried to rape Buffy. vampire. However, he did redeem himself in Buffy season 7 and Angel seasons 5, & 6

Warren Mears: Please don't even get me started.

Charles Gunn: Stereotypical "alpha male". Uses braun over brain. basically killed Fred. became a vampire and tried to end the world.

Wesley Wyndam-Pryce: Stereotypical Brit at first. Stuffy, follows the council with no questions asked. He is the opposite of Gunn because he followed his brain and kidnapped Connor at first sight of trouble and didn't look into it more.

Hank Summers: Cheated on Joyce (Speculative) and is clearly a deadbeat dad

i know a lot of this doesn't necessarily apply to a lot of the characters always, but at some point, most of the male characters have been known to make more life-altering mistakes.

also, i noticed that more female characters have died than male:

Female Characters (10 according to my count including buffy twice):
Buffy Summers (x2)
Jenny Calendar
Kendra Young
Joyce
Tara
Anya
Harmony
Fred
Cordelia

Male Characters (7)
Angel
Gunn
Wesley
Spike
Warren
Doyle
Lindsey

Being a guy, I feel like it's kind of unfair for 95% of men in the Buffyverse turn out to be complete douche bags...

Please, voice your opinions. all are welcome... if you agree say so! and if you completely disagree, say so too. also, if you wanna add anyone to the list that i have forgotten, let me know.

Angel was cursed, so, he did try to kill Buffy, but it wasn't the real angel, it was his vampire self.

Giles slept with Joyce yes, but he was under a spell.

Xander left Anya at the altar because he seen what his future would be, he didn't want to hurt her.

Oz tried to kill Tara because he turned into a WEREWOLVE, but he warned her to get away.

Riley, well, yes that's true, I forgot why he left, but Buffy tried to stop him, he didn't see her, so techincally, he left her because of a mistake.

SPIKE, hELLO! He's a vampire, without a soul, he wanted to kill the slayer!! Duh! He tried to rape Buffy, but he was in love with her. Still, that's not an excuse. But he was ashamed of that.


And, hellO! It's a drama! Stuff is supposed to be that way. And, all that made the show awesome.

[Midnight Butterfly]

I didnt notice it that much but when you list them like that... they are a bunch or useless twats lol.
I can understand Xanders reasons though, the reason he left Anya at the altar is because he cared about her too much, not because he didnt care about her.

[snizapman6294]

to be completely honest, i, TO THIS DAY, am confused as to why Xander left Anya. He loved her, but didn't wanna hurt her at the slim chance of the fake vision coming true???

[Skytteflickan88]

May 13, 2009 20:06:27 GMT -5 snizapman6294 said:

to be completely honest, i, TO THIS DAY, am confused as to why Xander left Anya. He loved her, but didn't wanna hurt her at the slim chance of the fake vision coming true???

I guess he thought that marriage did that to some people and didn't want to risk it.

I'm not sure if, when he walked out of the wedding, he planned on still dating her, or if he came to that conclusion later on. However, I don't get why he would think that living together wouldn't be as "dangerous" as being married.

[Midnight Butterfly]

When he walked out of the wedding he did still want to date her as he explains later. He thought it was too soon to get married.
The reason he left her at the altar wasnt just because of the fake vision but because he was having those thoughts before the vision.
On top of that he didnt want them to rush into and end up like his parents.

[xythil]

Principle Wood was a good guy.
Heck Spike was the perfect guy once he got his soul. He did everything for buffy never expecting anything in return. Completely selfless.