Angel: After the Fall - Issue 6 (First Night)

[Joe]

slayer489 said:

wyndam said:

Are you sure about that? I think #6 pretty much confirmed that Fred is alive and well inside Illyria. Other words, the "Fred" we saw talking to Spike was just Illyria in Fred's form? I don't think so. She wouldn't have spoken like that. Whatever has happened, I think it is clear that Fred and Illyria are sharing the same body, and how that happened, well I guess we will find out later.

Yeah I'm pretty sure it's just Illyria taking on Fred's personality. Illyria said herself that memories and what not of Fred has channeled into her function system when Fred's brain collapsed, so she has Fred's personality and can remember Fred's life. And remember 'Not Fade Away' when Wesley was dying in her arms and she transformed into Fred and got all emotional in Fred's form? I think that being in Hell has just taken this ability to the next level, like it has with her other powers that we thought she had lost.

Yea that was Fred at the end of Issue 5. If it was just Illyria then why would it be the "gigantic" cliff hanger.

[Rachster]

i loved this issue connors part was great

[Slayer489]

smartjoe299 said:

slayer489 said:

Yeah I'm pretty sure it's just Illyria taking on Fred's personality. Illyria said herself that memories and what not of Fred has channeled into her function system when Fred's brain collapsed, so she has Fred's personality and can remember Fred's life. And remember 'Not Fade Away' when Wesley was dying in her arms and she transformed into Fred and got all emotional in Fred's form? I think that being in Hell has just taken this ability to the next level, like it has with her other powers that we thought she had lost.

Yea that was Fred at the end of Issue 5. If it was just Illyria then why would it be the "gigantic" cliff hanger.

It still could be a big cliffhanger. Illyria might stay this way for a while.

[xmadxscientistx]

I was a bit confused, but I really did like it. The art was fantastic.

[El Diablo Robotico]

slayer489 said:

wyndam said:

Are you sure about that? I think #6 pretty much confirmed that Fred is alive and well inside Illyria. Other words, the "Fred" we saw talking to Spike was just Illyria in Fred's form? I don't think so. She wouldn't have spoken like that. Whatever has happened, I think it is clear that Fred and Illyria are sharing the same body, and how that happened, well I guess we will find out later.

Yeah I'm pretty sure it's just Illyria taking on Fred's personality. Illyria said herself that memories and what not of Fred has channeled into her function system when Fred's brain collapsed, so she has Fred's personality and can remember Fred's life. And remember 'Not Fade Away' when Wesley was dying in her arms and she transformed into Fred and got all emotional in Fred's form? I think that being in Hell has just taken this ability to the next level, like it has with her other powers that we thought she had lost.

I don't think we have enough info to know for sure, one way or another. But when "First Night" ends, and we get back to the 'present day' in #9, the description for #9 says, in part: "The gang's all here as the forces of evil attack from all sides. But Angel's not just fighting for his own life, the fate of someone he never thought he'd see again hangs in the balance." That wouldn't make sense if it's just talking about Illyria taking Fred's form. It also wouldn't make much of a cliffhanger if it were just Illyria channeling Fred, because we've already seen her do that before. So has Spike (or at least, he knew that she could do it by the time of "Power Play"), so why would he be so worried about her that he'd go to Angel asking for help with her? Why would he have been so concerned about keeping her away from Wesley? All of that, plus what I've heard about what Joss's original plans for S6 of the show were, makes me believe that, yeah, it's really Fred.

[deathquaker]

diablorobotico said:

slayer489 said:

Yeah I'm pretty sure it's just Illyria taking on Fred's personality. Illyria said herself that memories and what not of Fred has channeled into her function system when Fred's brain collapsed, so she has Fred's personality and can remember Fred's life. (snip).

I don't think we have enough info to know for sure, one way or another. But when "First Night" ends, and we get back to the 'present day' in #9, the description for #9 says, in part: "The gang's all here as the forces of evil attack from all sides. But Angel's not just fighting for his own life, the fate of someone he never thought he'd see again hangs in the balance." That wouldn't make sense if it's just talking about Illyria taking Fred's form. It also wouldn't make much of a cliffhanger if it were just Illyria channeling Fred, because we've already seen her do that before. So has Spike (or at least, he knew that she could do it by the time of "Power Play"), so why would he be so worried about her that he'd go to Angel asking for help with her? Why would he have been so concerned about keeping her away from Wesley? All of that, plus what I've heard about what Joss's original plans for S6 of the show were, makes me believe that, yeah, it's really Fred.

I'd personally put it more that it's probably Fred's actual personality that's dominant. Obviously Fred and Illyria are sharing a body. But somehow Fred's personality has fully reassembled itself (perhaps in part to the smashing of the glowy box restoring her memories, perhaps in part due to Wolfram and Hart mojo or some other mojo that has to do with a flaming circle, perhaps in part due to "This is my power: not to let them take me") and takes over in Fred-body form.

And I'll note (to agree with the idea that it does seem to be somehow discernably Fred in this form): in season five, when Illyria is sparring with Spike, Illyria notes that Spike has no trouble beating on her when others seem to tiptoe around her because she's in Fred's body. Spike says something like, "You don't act like her, you certainly don't smell like her, you're not her, so I have no problem beating on you," or some such.

Yet in 6, we see Spike really convinced that the girl lying in the circle IS Fred, meaning his senses--even his ability to scent a human or demon--were completely tricked into believing that girl was Fred, not Illyria in Fred form. So it IS Fred--(yet still obviously connected to Illyria somehow)--or something's seriously set Spike's senses off kilter.

[balesthebloody]

After reading "First Night" I have a better feeling that Fred is somewhat back. Illyria would have never hugged Spike and cried the way Fred did when Spike found her. I am not saying that Fred will be here to stay but I think she will be around.

[El Diablo Robotico]

deathquaker said:

I'd personally put it more that it's probably Fred's actual personality that's dominant. Obviously Fred and Illyria are sharing a body. But somehow Fred's personality has fully reassembled itself (perhaps in part to the smashing of the glowy box restoring her memories, perhaps in part due to Wolfram and Hart mojo or some other mojo that has to do with a flaming circle, perhaps in part due to "This is my power: not to let them take me") and takes over in Fred-body form.

Yeah, any of those sound good. Or maybe it's a result of her taking on Fred's form and personality in TGiQ and NFA. Given how little Illyria obviously understand about humans, human emotions, and human interactions, I always thought it was a little hard to believe that she could suddenly mimic Fred so perfectly that even her own parents would be fooled. But if Fred was in there somewhere, maybe in 'fragments' or 'pieces', and Illyria had to pull those pieces together to carry off the illusion, maybe it had an effect she (Illyria) wasn't expecting. Maybe Fred's consciousness was re-created, and she gradually began to assert more and more control...

[SlayerLV]

I really liked the issue

Spike's part was OK. I loved Connor's story although it bugged me that they got the likeness or Cordy wrong when Conner is looking at her and Angel from his crib and then in the next panal they got her likeness right in the sex scene. I think the reason I liked Connor's the best is because of the flashbacks or memories whatever you guys wanna call them. I also really liked Lorne's story because it was really unique in the fact that there really was no dialogue and it was a big rhyme.

[Disgruntled Gremlin]

Definite mixed bag for me. The idea of spending three issues on the rundown of exactly what happened to every character struck me as fan service: fun, but not especially relevent in the big picture. Of course, time will tell. As with every issue of After the Fall for me, there's a lot of great ideas, but development is a little thin in areas. Here's my rundown:

BETTA GEORGE
Although I love the idea of George giving the little girl a little magic at Universal Studios, he's right: his story ain't very interesting. The "cliffhanger" at the end doesn't ring particularly true either -- it's pretty clear from the fact that he's been on the covers that he's not in any real danger, and the other stories don't attempt to tie in with his narrative, so I have to ask myself what the point was. For those who haven't read Asylum or Shadow Puppets, it's a handy reassurance that yes, the giant fish is a good guy, but since I do have them, I can't say this intro has me blown away. Also, his humans look great, but artist Tim Kane has clearly never seen a betta before: fins and proportions make him look more like his distant cousin, Carp Karl. I still really dig the telepathic fish bubbles, though.

SPIKE
Nice idea, but rushed. The pacing sort of killed this one for me -- the soliloquy was in character, but I don't buy that Spike could act so callous toward his friends the moment he was transported out of the battle -- not very championly. His victory speech was totally in-character (though it was marred by the silly fourth-wall breakage), but his declaration of retirement seemed out of the blue. Since when has post-soul Spike decided to quit so easiliy, especially when his friends are in trouble? The reveal of Fred was definitely intriguing, but I'm confused by his reaction to her -- the display of romantic attraction, his apathy toward the thought of Gunn and Wes being punished, and a very rushed rationalization of how she could be there...doesn't sit super well. For the moment all of the Fang Gang was desperate for just weeks prior to this, his response seems surprisingly selfish. On art side, David Messina totally nails Spike, and though she isn't given anything to do, the battle panels of Illyria were outstanding. The spider demons also represent a great blending of the TV demons and the limitless comic book budget. Still, we're given precious little in these pages -- it can't even really be called a teaser for Spike: After the Fall as so little happens. It does raise a few questions -- are the spider-demons somehow related to Spider? Still, I can't say it has me shaking in anticipation for the miniseries followup.

CONNOR
By far the most enjoyable story in the book. Very nice characterization of Connor up through the beginning, and the graphic full-reveal of the memories was something that needed be addressed (and still does, for Gunn and Lorne, who I hope will be dealt with soon). However, I'm disappointed with the memories focused on -- rather than being disturbed by the desperate, hopeless wreck we saw in "Peace Out" and "Home," the ruthless hunter in "A New World" and "Tomorrow" or the manipulated wretch of "Inside Out," Lynch instead focuses on a very unnecessary EW, Oedipus! moment, which is very disappointing. It isn't even played with a seduction of the innocent vibe, just more ecch factor that we've already had enough of, thank you. On the other hand, it was great to see the authentic (and smoochy!) season 3 Cordy. The three dads narrative was again much less interesting than Connor facing the nihilism he embodied in his past life, but in the name of saving pages, I can forgive that so long as this issue is dealt with head on some time later. The cliffhanger doesn't have much tension -- again, we know Connor's going to turn out fine, but this was still an enjoyable romp. Mooney's Connor is pretty solid in some panels, though I prefer Urru's, but his version of hell (still hoping the dimension is Quor'Toth) looks awesome. I'm interested.

LORNE
Tales of the Slayers featured my all-time favourite story from the old comics series: Righteous. That story succeeded because of its tight rhyme scheme and short, dramatic, emotional story. As much as I love that story, I didn't think this format would work as a part of a larger, continuity story. I was right. I admire what Lynch and Byrne were going for, but this is definitely my least favourite canon Buffy/Angel comic so far. The rhyme scheme was a cute idea, but was forced a lot and distracted from what little emotion the plot offered. Although I had major issues with the silly rhymes, my real problem is with the characterization of Lorne: after being used as little more than cominc relief for pretty much every appearance since the Pylea arc, Lorne actually became an interesting character again in "A Hole in the World," and especially "Not Fade Away." Treating the fallout from his removal from the group with such light hearted touch was not the way to go -- really, the story just undoes all the devlopment he got in Season 5 to return him to his "groove." As fun as fun Lorne is, I find this speedy resolution impossible to swallow, and it cheapens his exit in "Not Fade Away" to have him return to form with such speed. The idea of Westwood is interesting, and I suspect it will play a large role in things to come. However, the way it was won was nothing new, and failed to shed light on any of our characters. Byrne's art is tres cute, and fits the silly poetry, but that cuteness isn't worth reducing to Lorne to a stereotype AGAIN.

Scott Allie is constantly telling fans in the Buffy letter column that explaining straight up every detail in the characters' lives that they've missed out on wouldn't be dramatic or interesting. He's right: this issue was a fun throwaway look at what we've missed, but doesn't have the depth or narrative strength it needed to justify the flashback format. Spike's tale has great art and some good Spike-speak, but is hampered by the shortened page format, and the characterization seems wonky. George's suffers for being entirely set-up, and not a particularly dramatic or suspenseful one at that. Lorne's was a mess, and one that damages the credibility of one of the show's (formerly) most interesting characters. Connor's tale fairs best by far, providing consistent characterization and an engaging way to approach loose plot threads. However, the bigger issues for his character are pushed to the side in favor of a more obvious joke, and that is a problem that must be addressed in the conclusion if we are to see the new Connor as a believable human being.

I'm much more excited for next issue -- these stories definitely said "filler" to me, and while I'm not thrilled that we're gaining another plast from the past, I can't say I wouldn't come a little if Cordelia popped in for a hello. Wes' story in particular intrigues me -- unlike Spike, George, or Lorne, we've all been dying to know what he's been up to. I'm still not convinced that this format was the best way to reveal all this info, though -- prove me wrong, next issue, Brian!

[Slayer489]

diablorobotico said:

slayer489 said:

Yeah I'm pretty sure it's just Illyria taking on Fred's personality. Illyria said herself that memories and what not of Fred has channeled into her function system when Fred's brain collapsed, so she has Fred's personality and can remember Fred's life. And remember 'Not Fade Away' when Wesley was dying in her arms and she transformed into Fred and got all emotional in Fred's form? I think that being in Hell has just taken this ability to the next level, like it has with her other powers that we thought she had lost.

I don't think we have enough info to know for sure, one way or another. But when "First Night" ends, and we get back to the 'present day' in #9, the description for #9 says, in part: "The gang's all here as the forces of evil attack from all sides. But Angel's not just fighting for his own life, the fate of someone he never thought he'd see again hangs in the balance." That wouldn't make sense if it's just talking about Illyria taking Fred's form. It also wouldn't make much of a cliffhanger if it were just Illyria channeling Fred, because we've already seen her do that before. So has Spike (or at least, he knew that she could do it by the time of "Power Play"), so why would he be so worried about her that he'd go to Angel asking for help with her? Why would he have been so concerned about keeping her away from Wesley? All of that, plus what I've heard about what Joss's original plans for S6 of the show were, makes me believe that, yeah, it's really Fred.

I know that it could go either way. The Issue #9 blurb could still be true. Angel never thought he would see Fred again, but now Illyria has completely transformed into her, personality wise and even tricked Spike's senses, therefore Angel and the gang are seeing a lot of aspects of their friend that they lost. Spike would've wanted to keep Illyria away from Wesley because he thought that seeing him would trigger her to turn into Fred, because he has seen her do it before as we see in Issue #6. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Enisy]

Having skimmed through various reviews on here, IDW, LiveJournal and Whedonesque, I was expecting to be disappointed, but I actually liked the issue quite a bit. Best things about it were the different artists (nothing could do justice to that poem like John Byrne's unique style, Stephen Mooney's facial expressions are impressively evocative, David Messina's sharp lines and edges work wonders on Spike's cheekbones, and can we please have Ilaria Traversi as the colourist for the rest of the series?), and the snappy dialogue (especially in Spike and Connor's story). Also liked the issue's structure: the composition of three different stories, flanked by Betta George's scenes.

My favourite story was Connor's. I've grown really fond of him since the memory transplant (the first of many) in Home, and my sadistic streak approves of his universe getting even more screwed up.

disgruntledgremlin said:

Nice idea, but rushed. The pacing sort of killed this one for me -- the soliloquy was in character, but I don't buy that Spike could act so callous toward his friends the moment he was transported out of the battle -- not very championly. His victory speech was totally in-character (though it was marred by the silly fourth-wall breakage), but his declaration of retirement seemed out of the blue. Since when has post-soul Spike decided to quit so easiliy, especially when his friends are in trouble? The reveal of Fred was definitely intriguing, but I'm confused by his reaction to her -- the display of romantic attraction, his apathy toward the thought of Gunn and Wes being punished, and a very rushed rationalization of how she could be there...doesn't sit super well.

I can only interpret all that stuff as him grasping at straws to make the best of a bad situation. I have to agree with you and Pat about the characterization there; the reasoning behind his reaction to Fred and Hell-A is not apparent in the writing or the art unless you squint. Particularly jarring on first read was his little rant on the rooftop, his lack of surprise at seeing Fred again, and his initial embrace of the new status quo. Honestly, I think it was the condensation of the moment that ruined it. Given another page or two, Brian could have justified all the stuff that now requires fanwanking, and everyone would be satisfied.

Even with all my quibbles, though, I readily admit that Brian still has Spike's voice down. He got some of his best dialogue ever in this issue.

Favourite panels:
Messina's three panels of Spike laughing, his two last panels of Spike staring at Illyria, and Byrne's "Neat Plans" panel. *g*

Favourite lines:
Spike:
- "Screw you, dawn! ...Hope that's not taken outta context."
- "Nobody talks to Spike unless Spike talks to them. And Spike doesn't talk to anyone who isn't a fairly open-minded damsel --"
- "...Doesn't look like she needs protection." -- "Yeah, lady. She really does."
Connor:
- "Besides, kinda be cool to slay a dragon."
- "What the hell do I do now? First dad, would fight. Maybe die. Second dad, fight. Probably die. Third dad. Just die."

Least favourite lines:
Didn't much like the elevator thing; it felt like characterization was sacrificed on the altar of comedy -- and the type of comedy that doesn't work too well in this medium, at that.

diablorobotico said:

I don't think we have enough info to know for sure, one way or another. But when "First Night" ends, and we get back to the 'present day' in #9, the description for #9 says, in part: "The gang's all here as the forces of evil attack from all sides. But Angel's not just fighting for his own life, the fate of someone he never thought he'd see again hangs in the balance."

Huh. I somehow managed to miss that description. With that phrasing, it actually almost sounds like a callback to --

"Is there a piece of Fred left?"
"Didn't think I'd see that face again."

-- from Issue 3.

[Spike]

wyndam said:

slayer489 said:

The Illyria transforming into Fred thing kinda confirmed that it is not really Fred we are seeing in Issue #5.

Are you sure about that? I think #6 pretty much confirmed that Fred is alive and well inside Illyria. Other words, the "Fred" we saw talking to Spike was just Illyria in Fred's form? I don't think so. She wouldn't have spoken like that. Whatever has happened, I think it is clear that Fred and Illyria are sharing the same body, and how that happened, well I guess we will find out later.

I think what there going to do with Fred & Illyria is have them as a split personality/Body Share, kind of like the whole Ben and Glory thing, Thats what Joss Whedon was planning on doing had Angel done a Season 6 on TV. This is a great idea because I think Fred is cool and I also think the Illyria character is really interesting.

[Disgruntled Gremlin]

can we please have Ilaria Traversi as the colourist for the rest of the series?

Amen to that. Toning down the shininess that has sometimes plagued previous issues made the art a good deal more enjoyable for me.

Guess I should also mention the covers, too -- cover A looks great -- love that orange background, and the likenesses are great. I also enjoy cover B, but Gwen's exaggerated pose throws off the composition a bit. Still, I think these covers are getting better and better.

[Aloha Joe]

Spike's part was good. Liked the whole Dawn joke. Connor's part was better. To have disliked him so much on the show, I'm really digging him in the comics. Lorne's part was the best. I love me some rhyme. And the art was fantastic throughout the whole issue. And Betta at the Jaws thing makes me giggle. And yay for Fruity Oaty Bars!

[Joe]

I posted my animated reenactment on youtube of this issue..check it out: uk.youtube.com/watch?v=P_1k4_Wtaso

[patxshand]

You're amazing, Joe! Loved the vid.

[raith]

Wow, this season(series) just keeps getting better and better. I really hope that one day there will be a return of all the Buffy/Angel characters on the small screen or big screen. The wait for the next issue always kills me. Though when I get my issues I take my time reading them carefully so I won't miss anything. Also I listen to the Angel soundtrack(Live Fast.Die Never) while I'm reading, which really helps me be engrossed in the issues even more so.

[spuffy4ever]

The R. Wrigley cover was fantastic-Spike looked so GOOD I could eat him up. Great
likenesses! Gunn also looks fantastic-cannot wait for his story-always liked him, so I am
really looking forward to the next issue. I liked Spike's story the best. Lorne's was OK and very funny. Connor's was just OK. Don't shoot me but I really don't like the fish. Just can't take it seriously. Although he is funny but not impressing me.
Don't like Angel ATF as much as Buffy S8 but still, it's better than nothing.
I hope Fred and Cordy come back-they both got a raw deal-both mystical deaths, so
anything is possible here. I was really PO'D at Joss for killing both of them off.
Does anybody know if Angel is selling well enough to get more issues? Or is 12 all we will get?