Do you believe in the supernatural?

[gumgnome]

From a book I'm reading at the moment:
"Pascal Boyer provides a good example of how a widely useful, general-purpose learning heuristic can sometimes lead us astray. Boyer argues that people apply "abductive reasoning" to the acceptance of supernatural ideas (and probably to much else). Abductive reasoning is a form of induction in which a premise is deemed to be true if the implication of that premise is observed. Arctic American used kayaks to hunt sea mammals. They were very successful doing so with primitive weapons. Thus, kayaks are the optimal boat for Arctic sea mammal hunting with atlatls. Plausible. But: people pray to gods for health and prosperity. Many sick people get well and many economic ventures succeed. People who do not pray often get sick. Prayers are answered. Thus, gods do intervene on behalf of the faithful! Not so plausible. Abductive reasoning ignores the cases in which praying did not result in a cure and cures occurred without prayer. Alternative hypotheses are not considered; many times prayers for good health must precede bad health. We live in a very complex world. False disconfirmation of hypotheses are common due to the operation of countervailing causes. A really good understanding of the natural world requires time-consuming observations, elaborate calculations, and controlled experiments, and these rigorous inductive methods are too costly for everyday use. Even though abduction is far from logically or empirically guaranteed to succeed, it often discovers real causal and correlative patterns, and it is easy to apply. However, if people are armed with the wrong hypotheses, abduction can easily lead them to adopt false and often deleterious beliefs."

[Rebecca]

I hate to boil down your post, gumgnome, but what I take from that is keep all possibilities open.

"Scientific truth" is in and of itself an oxymoron. Science is after the truth, but cannot determine truth in certainty. All it can "prove" is what is "more true" from scientific inquiry.

[gumgnome]

Well, I would say it can accept 'truths' that have not yet been disproven (from Popper). I don't quite hear you on "keep all possibilities open" - more that causal relationships can be tricky in reality, and with quick-to-apply but usually useful learning heuristics as a key weapon in our learning arsenal, we can be quick to incorrectly create causal relationships where none exist. This is why the book is claiming belief in the supernatural is so widespread.

[Malsad]

I wasn't refering to idol worship I am refering to things comparable to temperary contracts with demons and such like that.

[Talkie Toaster]

Few stories

1. My family used to live near train tracks (before i was born) and my sister (when she was young about 6 or 7) had 2 imaginary friends a girl and a boy who she would play with everything was fine till my family had to move which is when (apparently) the ghosts turned on my sister, my parents were skeptical about it all until..... they talked to some people at a funerial they went to and it turned out that a man there used to live in the house (across from the rail) with his family where his two children (a boy and a girl) were killed on the rail road tracks.

2.More personal to me when i was about 7 i heard crying and (in typical horror movie fashon) i walked down the hallway to the bathroom where i seen a baby in the tub that scared the crap out of me, me and others also seen shadows with no explination and one thing that freaked me out a lot was our new kitten which got up on it's hind legs (like a begging dog) looking up at.... something and also it randomly meowing at nothing, purring at nothing and chasing nothing.

3. Most recent was when i was 16 i saw a half full glass on a coffee table move then stop then move again now i thought "the coffee table must be at a bit of a slant" so to test i got a snooker ball and placed it on the table..... it didn't move at all!

so i guess i am a believer for the most part but i still however do not believe in any god or diety

[Rebecca]

Wow, Lurchibald, the railroad story and bathtub story are really compelling! I'd be a firm believer had I experienced those too!

[Talkie Toaster]

tell me about it lol that house was the creepiest house i have ever lived in ever

[armadonrk]

I found myself reading some of the posts in this thread, and I had to chime in. Normally I'm the skeptic in a conversation of this nature, pointing out why something isn't so, but I think some people here are being hypocritical in their beliefs.

Now, I don't believe in angels or demons or ghosts. I don't believe in 'supernatural' life, although their are plants and animals that people have never seen, or have been seen and not documented.
There are logical explanations for 90+% of what people see and 'believe', but to ignore the possibiility of all things 'supernatural' outright is, well, ignorant.

I don't know if you consider 'aliens' supernatural or not, the idea of them really isn't. The law of numbers dictates that intelligent life (or just life) elsewhere in the universe is a distinct possibility. In fact, depending on how accurate our understanding of the universe is, it could be a probability or a certainty. But I'm getting ahead of myself, since this is based on 'our understanding of...'

There's a bit of semantics involved here, since I can't define all these things as supernatural. I mean, what was magic is now science, what was alchemy is now technology. Our understanding of our own existence and the world around us is constantly evolving.

My point is that the only point of view as ignorant as blind faith is blind disbelief. The only reasonable and logical point of view is to admit that we don't and can't know anything absolutely.

How many people here have experienced 'deja vu'?
I've never known anyone to say they haven't, and on rare occasion, someone who has experienced it explicitly (myself included), where you can absolutely remember having seen/imagined/dreamed/experienced a moment before.

I believe there is a metaphyscial undercurrent to our physical reality. A fancy way of saying that which would be considered supernatural is scientifically explicable. That everything is connected on a fundamental level, whether you think it's a magical 'essence', or sub-atomic particle physics.

In fact, this is an easily supported idea, whether you're talking about science or religion. Since this is a Buffy forum, I figure I might as well quote Angel.
"Everything supports the coming of something that wasn't possible before."

Whether you call it Grand Unified Theory or God, to reject it outright is to ignore everything around us. Intuition, instinct, adrenaline, the afore-mentioned sense of deja vu. These are not always calculable and quantifiable things, but we experience them anyways. Most definitely.

Some people are more sensitive to this 'metaphysical undercurrent' than others, which is why, it seems to me, people have various degrees of experience with it. I don't believe in psychics or seers or mediums (media? sorry, strange sidetrack). I do believe it's possible for people to reach out and access that... whatever it is. But that people are explicitly tapping into something so huge and inexplicable that they can 'predict' things and affect things, that doesn't seem feasible, not at this point in our understanding of the world we live in.
And you would think, if it was being done, then there would be proof. Now, for trying to promote the idea that things are possible, here I'm using the word proof to prove something. Obviously, my earlier point is that proof isn't everything, but it is a good measure of whether or not something is. What it isn't is a measure of whether or not something is possible.

And that's about as important a distinction as a person can make.

Fairies and goblins, spirits and monsters, these are things which make no sense as far as I'm concerned. I don't believe in vampires or werewolves. Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster. There is no reason to believe they might exist. But if there is even a mote of a reason something could be, then one should always be open to the possibility.
For example, I don't believe in ghosts, but I believe in the possibility of the afterlife. I don't believe in angels or demons, but I believe in the concept of an inexplicable 'godlike' power. But a God as he exists in modern religion doesn't make sense. An impartial embodiment of both good and evil (God and Satan in one) makes more sense. There's the possibility of two such 'gods' as is depicted in most faiths, but more in an abstract light/dark, yin-yang sense of balance than an explicit conscious existence out to help or destroy humanity.

We have to acknowledge that we don't know what came before and we don't know what'll come after.

We have to acknowledge that we don't know.

[gumgnome]

Jul 16, 2009 1:19:46 GMT -5 armadonrk said:

Whether you call it Grand Unified Theory or God, to reject it outright is to ignore everything around us. Intuition, instinct, adrenaline, the afore-mentioned sense of deja vu. These are not always calculable and quantifiable things, but we experience them anyways. Most definitely.

To be honest, I think you have this the wrong way around. The world is so complex that without sound empirical data the theorists are blind. Those who claim to study unquantifiable complexity are being unreasonable, for quantifying is precisely what we do when things get complicated.

[spurtyknowledge]

Jun 8, 2009 0:05:19 GMT -5 snizapman6294 said:

I believe in ghosts, bigfoot, telepaths, but i don't believe in actual magic... i believe that there are people who think they are witches, gypsies, high priestesses, but i think they're (for the most part) crazy.

For the most part, no, we are not mentally unstable. Some of us are sucessful lawyers, doctors, blue-collar workers, writers, activists, professors, counselors, and you get the idea. Calling any religious group crazy because you don't believe in what they do shows a serious lack of compassion and tolerance. Before giving an opinion on whether or not anyone's faith is "true", why not just read about it from their perspective? Before completely discrediting magic as mental instability, why not read about what magic really is?

We do not create fireballs and shoot them at people. We don't sparkle, or teleport, or change time...we are healers. For the most part, magic does not contradict or reverse the laws of nature, rather it takes these laws into serious consideration so that with clear intent and understanding, the energy can used productively to accomplish a particular goal. One of the major philosophical debates in the Pagan community, as well as outside of it, is whether magic works empirically or psychologically. There are many answers to this question, among which is that the psychological and empirical aren't entirely exclusive from one another. Our working definition of magic in my personal tradition is "the art of changing consciousness at will," which means many things, but one that I will point out is that as an art, as a craft, it requires practice, time, and intent, so it will not always work perfectly, especially when one considers that there are opposing forces to will, there is resistance in nature. Magic works as much under that resistance law, as it does around it. Hard to grasp, huh? Bottom line is that magic is to be experienced. Do not disregard or discredit something because it does not work for you.

Now, I can't speak for every witch, Pagan, gypsy, wiccan, sage, mage, druid, shaman, because our traditions differ in many aspects, but I can say that magic is a large and important part of Pagan beliefs, many which predate Judeo-Christian teachings. As a modern religion based on Old Traditions, a lot of Pagan practice has become infused with not only folklore and mythology, but also newer concepts from science and academia. Magic does not mean simply doing a ritual and waiting for it to happen. The Reclaiming Tradition fully acknowledges the importance of action and physical work combined with spirituality. Since many of us believe in a world that is always changing, and we believe that we have the responsibility and the ability to help and direct those changes, we do not see ourselves as having the full knowledge of the Divine.

So, do I believe in a supernatural? Yes, for the most part. I do not believe it to be separate ("super"), however, but rather another facet of our universe. Angels, demons, fairies, and other common folklore and mythological beings are simply personal and universal visual representations of that deeper energy current which people experience very differently. A Christian from New Hampshire will experience the Divine, or that energy current which holds the universe together, very differently from an indigenous shaman in the Amazon.

There's obviously much more I could say, but I'm just going to end this by asking that if you don't believe in something, at least learn what it truly means before discrediting its possibility and demeaning the fact that there are many people who do believe. We all experience life differently, so be open to others' ideas. Some of the posts in this thread have been contradictory and even a tad ignorant really.

If you're interested in my personal tradition or learning what I believe, feel free to ask me or READ! There are numerous Pagan authors from all different Pagan traditions (and believe me, there are many. Every day I find more and more.), and some have published numerous books, not excluding fictional works. Read what academics have to say, some are even Pagan themselves. Here's a link to the official Reclaiming website:

www.reclaiming.org


"Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble."
- Joseph Campbell


“A bird does not sing because it has an answer; it sings because it has a song.”
- Chinese proverb

"People only see what they are prepared to see."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson

[Zombierella]

I voted for Absolutely. I have felt ghosts. I know it sounds cheesy. But a few years ago, A short time after my cats had passed away, I felt them. My dad felt one of them too! He was sleeping on the couch in the living room, and he felt something jump down on him and it scared him to death! Me, I was sitting at my computer chair typing like I am now, All of a sudden I feel a breeze accross my foot..Like a tail. I wrote it off at first..Accept all the windows were closed and my bedroom door was shut! So there was no breeze, No nothing!

I don't believe we're alone in this world. I believe there are ghosts here on earth. They are stuck here because of either unfinished business, Or they aren't ready to move on yet.

I don't believe in vampires of werewolves or anything like that. I've seen no proof of their existance. However, like I said I do believe there are other forces, and other beings here.

[spurtyknowledge]

I edited my post above in order to expand on what magic is considered to be in my personal tradition, where I felt I had been too vague previously.

It seems the majority of us believe in the "supernatural", which is interesting in regards to the series that has brought us together.

I remember not being able to breathe from laughing so hard at Willow's response to her college Wiccan group which was a very realistic depiction of college Wiccans despite being an obvious caricature made to juxtapose reality ("Talk. All talk. Blah, blah, Gaia. Blah, blah, moon. Menstrual life-force power thingy.") and fiction (Willow's impressive witchy array of floating pencils, fireballs, locator spells).

I've also enjoyed reading everyone's ghostly encounters. Keep them coming!

[Rebecca]

Wow, armadonrk, I am very impressed with your post. You expressed what I could not. *karma*

[glorylover]

Soooo another ghostly experience in this house:
The other day my mum was in the kitchen, she was standing at the counter and heard the door open behind her and felt someone come into the room, she thought it was me with her groceries, so she never looked, a few minutes later I came back with her shopping, abd she was like "wasn't that just you?" I said no, and she told me someone had been in the room with her, but there couldn't have been cuz it was only me and her home.....when we looked around the kirchen we noticed that her coffee cup had moved from the edge of the kitchen table to the centre of the table....but she hadn't touched it cuz like I said she was at the counter chopping stuff up.....this house is weird....

[elenasaur]

I picked either 'kind of' or 'a little'. I don't remember, and I wasn't sure what the difference was.
I've never had any kind of experience that led me to absolutely believing in the supernatural. And thinking rationally, I'm sure that supernatural experiences can all be explained away by science.
But science is actually what leads me to believe in something else. I just find the concept (or fact) that every thought and feeling I have is just the result of chemical reactions in my brain unfathomable. And so I am forced to believe that humans have souls, or essence, or something that science can't explain. And if that's true, then there's no real reason a whole slew of other mythical things aren't real too...

[Rebecca]

Precisely! Our science cannot measure thoughts. It can measure bloodflow and neuron firing, but it can't read your mind. Science doesn't explain everything at this precise moment.

[Paul]

Jul 16, 2009 11:31:02 GMT -5 spurtyknowledge said:

"Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble."
- Joseph Campbell

Wow, this totally sums up my opinion.

The supernatural is a metaphor for things that human beings can't understand. Vampires, werewolfs, etc were invented by us to explore aspects of human behaviour and explain the unexplainable. They might not be physical beings but they'll still real in a sense because they're an inherent, deep-rooted part of our culture. We all have vampires and werewolves inside ourselves.

As for ghosts, the afterlife, etc... I tend to believe they are invented by humans to comfort us over our own mortality. But I'm agnostic, so I don't pretend to know. I'm entirely open to the concept of a higher power, but I don't think it's some all-loving God who listens to our prayers, but more of a neutral, uncaring force. And it's not "super"natural; it's natural... we're just too primitive to understand it.

Wow... that's some deep shit right there.

[N.D.U.O]

I belive in two tihngs: Christianity - Which is pretty supernatural. And the power of mind. For example the more believe something the morel ikely it is to happen. Doesn't mean it's magic but it's not normal, either.

[Miss. Rogueh]

I totaly believe in the supernatural. Granted there are alot of hoaxs out there but I want to share a couple experiances with you.

1. Doug. Alright well when I was about 12 my brothers friend Doug died in a car accident. Since then I have had what seems to be a prankster ghost following me. It moves stuff, hides stuff, just the usual prankster type. Doug was a prankster when he was alive so I have named this "spirit?" Doug. It has followed me through 5 houses including a cross country move. I don't really mind it, i think it is kinda funny but my husband hates it.

2. Dreams. My dreams have always been very Vivid and colorful. Sometimes I will just get flashes like someone fliping through a photo album very fast, sometimes I will get whole events. When I was about 9 I dreamed of being informed about the death of my Grandfather. A week later it happened exactly as it did in my dream, down to the clothes my father was wearing. Samething happened with the death of my grandmother. I have been dreaming of things that haven't happened yet since then. It isn't every night, and it isn't always as crystal clear as I would like. It is hard for me to tell the difference between a Prophetic Dream from a Regular Dream until the events in reality start. I keep a dream journal and quite frequently have to return to previous entrys and write down the date of when the event took place.

[Scarygothgirl]

I believe in God, which certainly falls under the supernatural category. Also there are all sorts of things in the world that seem unexplainable, it'd be silly to waste time trying to find rational explanations, so I'd rather just accept that maybe these things are caused by something not of this world.