Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,306
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Feb 25, 2009 22:11:21 GMT -5
Cool, I posted a Q: Anonymous said...
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Post by Emmie on Feb 25, 2009 22:41:56 GMT -5
Dang. This doesn't look good. For those who've read the issue is it true that Armstrong wrote Angel as feeling like he's redeemed himself?
Here's some of my comments I posted on Whedonesque:
I'm very worried about this series now. To be honest, if it's dropped in quality from After the Fall I'm extremely worried. I had serious problems with After the Fall, but I still recognized that it had some great story in there. Oh jeez. If the people who were singing AtF's praises (Pat, Wyn) are saying they liked it versus the loving that got sent towards AtF, then I can only begin to imagine my reaction to this piece.
Barryshaft, the fact that you equated this to badly written fanfiction is making me want to smack my head against a brickwall. I'm going to read the comic when I get it tomorrow before fully opening the door to this again, but I don't think we can necessarily take it for granted that Aftermath is canon.
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iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:10]
Posts: 684
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Post by iloveromy on Feb 25, 2009 22:47:01 GMT -5
Hey! Maybe Aftermath will have a reset too I keeeeed. I keeeeeeeeeed.
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Post by Wyndam on Feb 25, 2009 22:51:16 GMT -5
King, Vampmogs and Bitsy explained the redemption line better than I ever could over at Whedonesque, so I'm not even going to touch that one. Honestly, it's just one line of dialogue, and when looking at the context of the situation, I don't have a problem with it.
Yes Aftermath #18 is not as good as After the Fall #1, but I really hope that no one expected it to be.
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bitsy
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 137
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Post by bitsy on Feb 25, 2009 22:59:12 GMT -5
King Vampmogs, and Bitsy explained the redemption line better than I ever could over at Whedonesque, so I'm not even going to touch that one. Honestly, it's just one line of dialogue, and when looking at the context of the situation, I don't have a problem with it. Yes Aftermath #18 is not as good as After the Fall #1, but I really hope that no one expected it to be. Awe, thanks Wyn. I certainly did not expect Aftermath to be as good as After the Fall right out of the gate. This is Kelley's first time out with these characters and I think she deserves some breathing space to adapt. She's set some very interesting plot developments into motion. I think she just needs to get a better grip on the voice of some of the characters. I gave a rather lengthy response to you, Emmie and I hope you won't take it as an insult. I just think you're really jumping the gun especially since you haven't even read the issue yet. I've read it over a few times and given the redemption and atonement stuff a great deal of thought. Don't go in with a head full of steam. Relax. There's goodness in there, I promise, and Angel has still got some brood. He'll get broodier as things start going so not his way as they always inevitably do.
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Post by Emmie on Feb 25, 2009 23:14:57 GMT -5
King, Vampmogs and Bitsy explained the redemption line better than I ever could over at Whedonesque, so I'm not even going to touch that one. Honestly, it's just one line of dialogue, and when looking at the context of the situation, I don't have a problem with it. Well, see that's the problem. I don't understand their arguments. I was hoping for clarification because I don't really see how the quote from Armstrong's interview and the text from #18 line up. Unless everyone here thinks that Angel is fully redeemed. Yes Aftermath #18 is not as good as After the Fall #1, but I really hope that no one expected it to be. Doesn't that speak for itself in a negative way though? That people aren't expecting it to be as good. Bitsy, no offense taken. I can't read the comic til tomorrow and I'm fully able to re-evaluate my decision when I do get my hands on it. All my post said (very honestly and upfront) was that some things don't seem to be adding up here. I'm the first one to couch my post with the warning "Speculation - haven't read it til tomorrow", but I don't understand how that quote is taken in a different context than I'm reading it. And no one has adequately explained Armstrong's quote in the context of this issue either. There's a slight problem with Kelley getting breathing space for Aftermath - only 5 issues. There's no story time to waste there. I'm still going to read the comic, but I still fail to see how Armstrong's quote doesn't directly contradict the dialogue from Orpheus. And no, no one has really touched that specific argument yet. I guess I'm left to make up mind tomorrow. The "paid his dues" line contrasting the Orpheus line doesn't really add up for me. Bitsy, regarding your post on Whedonesque - I don't want Angel beating himself up every second but the belief that he has to atone is a huge part of what moves him forward. Anyways, I'm not going to argue this more until tomorrow. If anyone has an explanation regarding the "paid his dues"/"redeemed my past" lines versus Orpheus, I'd appreciate the explanation.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Feb 25, 2009 23:26:07 GMT -5
Just reread it, and while I still think the writing of the characters is very mediocre, I'm much more interested in the story Kelly has come up with. I was too busy being disappointed with Kate and spaced out, focusing more on what she was saying, trying to find Elisabeth Rohm's voice. Fully understanding the "apocalyptic fallout" and what these two people want Angel to do has gotten me a little more excited about what's coming next.
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Post by Wyndam on Feb 25, 2009 23:26:49 GMT -5
Unless everyone here thinks that Angel is fully redeemed. I don't think anyone thinks that, at least not from the comments I have read. It is more about Angel deciding not to fuel his desire to help with his desire to redeem himself. Now his desire to help is fueled by just that, his pure desire to help people, no strings attached. Doesn't that speak for itself? That people aren't expecting it to be as good. I don't really think it speaks for anything. I kind of compare it to "A Hole in the World" and "Shells". Arguably, "A Hole in the World" is the better episode of the two, and "Shells" deals with the direct fallout of events that happen in "A Hole in the World". "Shells" is still a very strong episode in it's own right (one of my favorites, actually), but it is still inferior when compared to "A Hole in the World". The comparison isn't perfect, as we still have 75% of Aftermath left, but that's what I got. Heck I'll even compare it to Dollhouse too. It started well, but wasn't as great as what came before, yet it sets up some very interesting plot points, story elements and best of all, mysteries that will be paid off down the road. Also, it seems like most of the people with vocal issues with the "redemption" line haven't read the issue yet, but I may be wrong there. I need to re-read some of the comments on Whedonesque.
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buffyfest
Potential Slayer
That, and a burning baby fish swimming all around your head.[Mo0:24]
Posts: 133
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Post by buffyfest on Feb 26, 2009 0:15:25 GMT -5
I liked Aftermath #18. I really never liked Kate. Really, really, really a lot. But I'm trying to be patient with her here because she doesn't seem so bad at this point. Overall, I thought much of the issue had a very Jossian humor which I'm really missing due to the lack of it in Dollhouse.
Re: Angel's redemption This is always a f'ed up issue for me. It will always be on my mind that Angel doesn't have to atone for Angelus's past (thus negating the whole show) much like NowSouledSpike shouldn't have to atone for SoulessSpike's past. It wasn't them, that's it (that whole thing is debatable, I know...so I'll just move on). At the same time, yes Angel has done things as Angel he should feel pretty bad about too. Although on the third hand, it's hard out there for a Champ so I don't claim to know what it's like to be faced with these hard decisions. Nevertheless, I highly doubt that's the end of Angel's redemption issue, so I'm going to take this whole thing with a fine grain of salt and just try to enjoy the story.
And I wouldn't kid too much iloveromy! I really do think this has no where else to go other than a reset. That goes for Buffy season 8 too! How in the world will they deal with Vamps and Slayers being outed in the real world in any other way?
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Feb 26, 2009 0:15:36 GMT -5
I'm very worried about this series now. To be honest, if it's dropped in quality from After the Fall I'm extremely worried. I had serious problems with After the Fall, but I still recognized that it had some great story in there. Oh jeez. If the people who were singing AtF's praises (Pat, Wyn) are saying they liked it versus the loving that got sent towards AtF, then I can only begin to imagine my reaction to this piece. Please please please don't measure the series by me just liking it. It's the first issue of an arc written by a woman who is just getting into the 'verse, and it's good. If anything, I think you'll be feel more like how I feel about it than anything else, because until very very recently, you were singing the AtF praises as high and Wyn and I. I didn't like the issue as much as, say, King of Cretins, but I thought it was a decent start, especially for a newcomer to the Buffyverse. It's not at "After the Fall" or the majority of "Season Eight" level yet, but what you can measure it by is this: It's a lot better of a first dip into the verse than Jeph Loeb's writing in #20 was. I found that a lot of the worrying, especially that over at Whedonesque, doesn't even hit on any of the issues I had with the book. The stuff they're talking about didn't bother me in the least, nor will it bother anyone who actually read the book, I'd wager. Why? Your forehead is pretty, don't do that. Plus, you're needlessly hurting walls. People have said that about "After the Fall" and even "Season Eight" many many times. Just because Barry's last name is funky fresh doesn't give that anymore weight than when people said it about those titles. It's not even close to badly written fan fiction. T'ain't even well written fan fiction. It's just good fiction with the potential to get better. I sincerely think you'll like it. Maybe not the scene where Kate and Angel meet up, or Kate's hair, but you'll like most e'r'thang else.
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buffyfest
Potential Slayer
That, and a burning baby fish swimming all around your head.[Mo0:24]
Posts: 133
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Post by buffyfest on Feb 26, 2009 0:18:59 GMT -5
What in the world? You posted at the exact same millisecond as me, patxshand. And because I was so thrown off, I read one of your sentences as "Just because Barry's last name is funky fresh doesn't give that anymore weight than when people said it about those titties." Need sleep. Carry on.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 26, 2009 0:24:28 GMT -5
I didn't love this issue, but didn't hate it either.
I agree that Kate seemed nothing like the series version, but it may be that her time in Hell-A was actually *good* for her, in that it enabled her to work out her issues through some serious aggro. It seemed like she was already moving in that direction in her "First Night" appearance. It might have been nice if she and Angel spent a page or so talking about their past problems and Kate maybe explaining her new outlook a bit. To have her suddenly come out of nowhere and immediately sign up as Gabrielle to Angel's Xena was a bit jarring. At least a hint of her old bitterness would have been a good touch.
The new mysterious magical duo seem interesting. I want to see where KA is going with these two, and I'm trusting they're not going to be Lindsey & Lilah retreads.
At first I thought that was Gwen in the car with Gunn, but I guess Illyria makes slightly more sense.
Dez has some interesting possibilities, and I'd like to know what her problem with Angel is. Is she an assassin sent by one of the Lords? Possibly against her will? Could she be a Slayer?
This issue was more or less what I was expecting. I will keep reading. But, I'm not considering anything after #17 to be canon until I hear differently from an appropriate source.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Feb 26, 2009 0:24:59 GMT -5
What in the world? You posted at the exact same millisecond as me, patxshand. And because I was so thrown off, I read one of your sentences as "Just because Barry's last name is funky fresh doesn't give that anymore weight than when people said it about those titties." Need sleep. Carry on. Hahaha great minds/bloggers post alike! And I should have said titties. Missed opportunities.
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bitsy
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 137
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Post by bitsy on Feb 26, 2009 0:27:43 GMT -5
What in the world? You posted at the exact same millisecond as me, patxshand. And because I was so thrown off, I read one of your sentences as "Just because Barry's last name is funky fresh doesn't give that anymore weight than when people said it about those titties." Need sleep. Carry on. Hahaha great minds/bloggers post alike! And I should have said titties. Missed opportunities. Missed opportunities indeed. Meanwhile we both made comments about Emmie banging her forehead into a brick wall at roughly the same time. I just did mine over at the Whedon that is -esque. Wacky.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Feb 26, 2009 0:28:58 GMT -5
This issue was more or less what I was expecting. I will keep reading. But, I'm not considering anything after #17 to be canon until I hear differently from an appropriate source. Not sure if this will help, but there was a guy in front of my comic store wearing a shirt that said "Appropriate Source." He was shouting something about "It's canon! It's canon!" over a loud speaker. Don't know what that was about.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Feb 26, 2009 0:30:31 GMT -5
So you thought I was talking about titties as we both made comments about Emmie banging? Oh the sexual innuendo opportunities.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 26, 2009 0:31:15 GMT -5
Not sure if this will help, but there was a guy in front of my comic store wearing a shirt that said "Appropriate Source." He was shouting something about "It's canon! It's canon!" over a loud speaker. Don't know what that was about. That was Chris Ryall.
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bitsy
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 137
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Post by bitsy on Feb 26, 2009 0:38:03 GMT -5
So you thought I was talking about titties as we both made comments about Emmie banging? Oh the sexual innuendo opportunities. I think that's what everyone assumed and by "everyone" I mean "the perverts in the crowd".
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bitsy
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 137
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Post by bitsy on Feb 26, 2009 0:38:55 GMT -5
Not sure if this will help, but there was a guy in front of my comic store wearing a shirt that said "Appropriate Source." He was shouting something about "It's canon! It's canon!" over a loud speaker. Don't know what that was about. That was Chris Ryall. Can I just say that this whole give and take was genius? Yeah, it was. Just a bit. Also hilarious.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Feb 26, 2009 0:41:29 GMT -5
Actually, it was this guy.
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