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Post by wenxina on Apr 24, 2009 21:47:32 GMT -5
Gotta say that once again, I really enjoyed the peripheral stories more than the A-story. Dushku wasn't bad in this ep... it's just that the whodunnit mystery bit really didn't get me too much. Sure, it was interesting to watch Echo/Margaret go through the motions with the family members, but it wasn't as compelling as some of the quieter moments. For example, Boyd's separation anxiety... how he still does the legwork for Echo's engagement.
By far the sweetest scenes in this ep were the ones between Topher and Sierra. I'm glad that Topher's need to connect wasn't sexual... one more sexual engagement and I'm gonna throw a book of possible non-sexual engagements at Joss. And Sierra actually made for a very believable nerd/gamer/sci-fi fan girl. But what really sold me was the interaction between the two, and in a way, Topher finally became real to me. He wasn't just the cowardly button-pusher, but a real person. Adelle's spiel about connection overlaying the scene where Sierra brings Topher a cake was possibly the biggest heartwrencher here. I'm guessing since it only happens once a year, it's probably on his birthday... which is very sweet gesture from Adelle.
That covers the heartwrencher. The gutwrencher was in the Ballard/Mellie sex scene. Typically... it would have been hot, in that whole Mr and Mrs Smith kinda way... but in this context, it just felt wrong, and possibly depraved. And I'm not surprised that Paul felt the same, as evidenced by his claim that he found one of the Dollhouse's clients (i.e. himself).
As far as the general mythos of the show goes, I actually thought that it extended that, while not necessarily furthering the overall plot of the season. The implications of being able to have your entire personality imprinted (i.e. everlasting life, as pointed out) is quite fascinating, and definitely a possibility to consider, should that technology become available.
All in all, a good ep. Not solid. I'll say it again... the A-story just didn't rock my socks off (granted I may have been wearing tube socks). But some stellar moments kept it way above Ep 7, which I still deem the weakest in the second half of the show to this point.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Apr 24, 2009 22:03:10 GMT -5
As far as the general mythos of the show goes, I actually thought that it extended that, while not necessarily furthering the overall plot of the season. The implications of being able to have your entire personality imprinted (i.e. everlasting life, as pointed out) is quite fascinating, and definitely a possibility to consider, should that technology become available. (spoiler re: Epitaph One:) Which makes me wonder about "Epitaph One"... it may not feature the actors from the regular series, but perhaps it will feature some of the same characters? |
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rufio
Novice Witch
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Posts: 205
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Post by rufio on Apr 24, 2009 22:21:20 GMT -5
Pretty solid episode, but it made me question the imprinting process. I'm actually kind of confused about it all. I understood up to this point that the dolls were imprinted with the 'personality' of someone, but I didn't really take it to mean that it WAS that person. I guess part of me assumed it was Echo-in addition to the traits of the imprinted personality. But this was actually not only Margarets personality, but her whole being-her soul I guess you might say. I don't even know how to say what I'm trying to get across, it just confused me- the idea of margaret actually being in echos body (where is echo or caroline while margaret is occupying the body? does she even exist at all at this point?). I understand erasing memories, but how could you extract someones being/soul into a piece of technology? does anyone at all understand what i'm saying?
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Post by snizapman6294 on Apr 24, 2009 22:25:53 GMT -5
oh my god that episode was amazing!
i loved every minute. the whole she's dead but Echo is her thing gave me a headache. and i figured out that it was the son as soon as Victor was looking at the horse and he said "The Lungs are fine"
next week looks extra-fu*king amazing!
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Post by hitnrun017 on Apr 24, 2009 22:25:54 GMT -5
Pretty solid episode, but it made me question the imprinting process. I'm actually kind of confused about it all. I understood up to this point that the dolls were imprinted with the 'personality' of someone, but I didn't really take it to mean that it WAS that person. I guess part of me assumed it was Echo-in addition to the traits of the imprinted personality. But this was actually not only Margarets personality, but her whole being-her soul I guess you might say. I don't even know how to say what I'm trying to get across, it just confused me- the idea of margaret actually being in echos body (where is echo or caroline while margaret is occupying the body? does she even exist at all at this point?). I understand erasing memories, but how could you extract someones being/soul into a piece of technology? does anyone at all understand what i'm saying? Hmm... that is interesting, but I don't think it has anything to do with a soul. It's all memories. Echo got imprinted with everything Margaret, so she knows everything: Adelle, her kids and her life. It's sort of like Eleanor from the very first episode. We found out that Echo's imprint was made up of different people, and one of those people had a history with one of the kidnappers, so she remembered. |
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Post by wenxina on Apr 24, 2009 22:26:02 GMT -5
Pretty solid episode, but it made me question the imprinting process. I'm actually kind of confused about it all. I understood up to this point that the dolls were imprinted with the 'personality' of someone, but I didn't really take it to mean that it WAS that person. I guess part of me assumed it was Echo-in addition to the traits of the imprinted personality. But this was actually not only Margarets personality, but her whole being-her soul I guess you might say. I don't even know how to say what I'm trying to get across, it just confused me- the idea of margaret actually being in echos body (where is echo or caroline while margaret is occupying the body? does she even exist at all at this point?). I understand erasing memories, but how could you extract someones being/soul into a piece of technology? does anyone at all understand what i'm saying? Well, apparently Margaret had undergone multiple scanning sessions, presumable to fully scan her brain and all it's nuances (the mind, essentially). A compilation of these scans were imprinted in Echo. The usual process is a little more cut-and-paste; Topher (and presumably anyone else trained in the process) takes bits and pieces from various sources and combines them to form the final imprint. EDIT: But it does bring up an interesting metaphysical question: Is the "soul" merely the sum of various "memories" of sorts, or is there more to it? Btw, did anyone else catch that there may be another Dollhouse in Manhattan? That would put at least 2 Dollhouses in the US alone. EDIT again: AndrewCrossett, your speculation is actually something that I've never even considered, and it would make for some seriously nifty television. I'm throwing a karma point in there for that.  |
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Post by tms on Apr 25, 2009 0:04:36 GMT -5
I thought this episode was ok. It wasn't good, but it wasn't bad - but for a stand-alone it was pretty good. I didn't get the part about Topher/Sierra; Paul and Mellie are now among my favorite whedonverse ships; I felt bad for Adelle at the end, because even then she didn't really get to say good-bye.
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Just Willow
Wise-cracking Sidekick
Look to the Western Sky
[Mo0:22]
Posts: 2,575
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Post by Just Willow on Apr 25, 2009 0:09:20 GMT -5
so good! chilling concept, life after death. I felt so sorry for Topher. i teared up a little. the poor man, can't date, can't have friends, can't do anything, except for on his birthday he gets a fake friend to spend the day with. I loved he and Sierra's scenes though. so adorable. then of, course, you remember none of it is real.
Paul Ballard is having a breakdown! his face, right before he starts kissing Mellie, was terrifying! he was so blank, i thought for a second he was a Doll, and had just been shut down or activated or something. totally wigged me out.
one of my favorite eps so far. gonna go with a 5/5 on this one!
PS: playing laser tag in the Dollhouse=epic win!
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redhead
Common Vampire
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Post by redhead on Apr 25, 2009 13:25:02 GMT -5
I loved parts of this episode.
The main story I found kinda boring. Nice idea, but I just didn't think it worked very well.
Loved the Paul and Mellie scenes. They were so dark!
Enjoyed the Topher story, although I don't really feel sorry for him.
Basically an alright filler episode I felt. Can't wait for the real action to begin next week!
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toml
Innocent Bystander
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Post by toml on Apr 25, 2009 15:04:16 GMT -5
Here goes what I posted at the TWoP forums: I liked it too. We need to remember that this is how a Whedon show works: stand alone + arc episodes. If we get a second season, that won't change. And as a stand alone, this was a good one. Sort of like "Help" from BtVS (that is so not a C-, TWoP!), a good story that doesn't have much to do with the main characters [the A-plot, at least].
The dead woman plot was nice. Who wouldn't love to come back from the dead and know what people really thought about them? Although, I dunno. Are we suppose to think it was really Margaret on Echo's body or just a program? On the Dollverse, do people have souls that can't be saved on files (or wiped away)? Or, if there are no souls and the Dollhouse is actually able to copy someone's brain, or to save it on a file (as they did to Dominic's), wouldn't it be Margaret herself on Echo's body? Like last episode, this one adressed a lot the issue of illusion, which keeps making this show more aware of itself and more interesting as well.
For some reason, I thought Margaret had planned her own death. I was surprised it was her son, and sort of disappointed that they took the road of "the one you locked yourself in the room with is the one who killed you".
On the Ballard and Mellie plot front, God, that was so creepy! But I'm of the opinion they are both victims. How would Ballard handle it unless he truly embraced the idea of using whoever the person Mellie was before? He would've gone crazy. Or he's already crazy and messed up, and in order not to get crazier he had to buy what the Dollhouse is forcedly selling him. Plus, the hot sex scene followed by Echo riding the horse was kind of awesome.
Topher's birthday. I liked it. Filler? Yeah. But entertaining enough. And again with the illusion issue.
Good episode. And I'm going to watch the next two as if they were the last two Whedon episodes on TV ever. Not to be a pessimist, but to enjoy them to the greatest extent I'm able to. Some extra thoughts: I agree that this was ED's best acting so far. The final scene was really beautiful. Especially this: Echo/Margaret: Will I see my whole life flash before my eyes? Adelle: Every single moment. |
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Post by diabeticdude202 on Apr 26, 2009 4:55:35 GMT -5
I feel so sorry for Topher though. I never really looked at his character from the point of view that was shown in this episode; how lonely it must feel to be giving people everything they want but be trapped in the Dollhouse along with all the dolls.
It was so funny to see him interact with Sierra. And I think the actress has made an amazing improvement in her acting since neighbours - so that is something she should be proud of. Oh, and I know the episodes before this like "Man on the Street" and "Needs" can be seen as far better than this one but I enjoyed "Haunted" more than I expected and it is my favourite of all time.
There were three characters in this episode that really got me and that I don't usually get fascinated by because they sometimes see so 2 dimensional and that was Adelle hands down, Topher, and suprisingly boyd - I don't know why Boyd but I think the writers made a good choice of making him attached to Echo and then suddenly pull him away from her.
So that's my little notes and I'd give this episode about a 9.5/10...I wouldn't give it a ten, but it is my favourite episode XD
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Post by henzINNIT on Apr 26, 2009 8:02:08 GMT -5
So many bitterweet moments. I thought it was great. My heart broke during Adelle's speech about Topher's one day a year.
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Post by PJ on Apr 26, 2009 9:46:00 GMT -5
Very nice episode! Once again dollhouse is the best show on tv right now!  |
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weredog
Innocent Bystander
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Posts: 38
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Post by weredog on Apr 26, 2009 11:43:47 GMT -5
It was a good television episode. Not one the series' best, but it was good. I far preferred the sub-plots with Topher and Ballard to that of Echo/Margaret. It was great to see Topher wanting a Doll for simple companionship from someone like himself on his birthday. It was also very sweet that Adelle understood and permitted this.
Ballard is entering some serious moral issues, after he finally gives in to the fantasy that is presented by a Doll. Can he still be the one casting stones at the Dollhouse? I don't think so. And yet.
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Skeptic
Initiative Soldier
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Post by Skeptic on Apr 27, 2009 22:16:17 GMT -5
I enjoyed the ep. It wasn't like the others, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It was a bit formulaic, but I can't really find fault with that either. The ep has a lighter, more spacious feeling than the ones preceding it, possibly because it's not heavy with the burden of furthering the backstory and mythology of the dolls, but also I think the writing had something to do with it. The dialogue flowed easily and was enjoyable to listen to. This is what I'd call a "talkie" ep, just an ep more focused on personal drama and less on action/dolls/engagements. What immediately comes to mind when I think of Joss' best character-driven drama eps is Buffy - stuff like "Conversations With Dead People". Although this ep wasn't the same, the vibe was somewhat similar.
On the whole - really dug it.
The thing with Paul and Mellie was frustrating and a bit maddening. I suppose Jane/Jed/Maurissa were was going for that, though. It was time to expose Paul's grossest levels of frustration, though, with himself and the whole elusive dollhouse thing. And possibly revealing something dark about Paul that may lead us to more (pure spec/gut feeling/curiosity on my part).
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Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
One Good Scare
Tonight I'm Dancing.[Mo0:16]
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Post by Nicholas on Apr 28, 2009 14:43:28 GMT -5
I actually really liked this episode. I found it really engaging and never once thought of Echo as ECHO, so I have to give Eliza Dushku respect for that.
The engagement was really interesting actually and proves a point that the world would effectively end if it gets its hands on that science. Dollhouse is a flawed system and this episode proves it.
Eh, that thing with Topher made me sad.
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gumgnome
Junior Vampire Slayer
Who has got the button?
Get out of my BRAIN![Mo0:1]
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Post by gumgnome on Apr 29, 2009 4:14:59 GMT -5
On the whole souls in bodies thing:
It seems that this episode confirms the idea that the Dollhouse works by effectively copying all of the neural activity in someone's brain and storing a version of that person in time (the time when they were last scanned) as a memory file. I think that the episode suggested that this can be done in only one sitting - I would guess that the only reason Margaret went back for more would be to update her memory. After all, she believes that she will be murdered and therefore needs the most up to date memories possible.
This concept is very similar to a growing minority of people called 'transcendentalists' (there are other names as well, but they escape me) who believe that a person's neural data could be uploaded in this way and allow for humans to live forever in metal shells (like spacecraft) or even existing as waves of radiation (e.g. light) to allow for speedy travel through the universe. The most likely method of achieving this goal would be to build an A.I. that can evolve its own technology with this purpose in mind.
One thing it definitely does call into question is the existence of a soul in the Dollhouse universe. If a person can be downloaded fully into another shell, there is no a priori reason to assume that the soul would be downloaded as well. If this argument is not enough, think of how easy it would be to download the personality into two dolls simultaneously - would the soul then split into two, or be copied as well? Is the new downloaded personality separate entirely and have a new, individual soul? Coming from a creator who has made the nature of the soul a central feature of previous shows, it is interesting to see such a radical departure from what has come before, no?
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