Dollhouse - Episode 1x01: Ghost

[Tyler Austin "tiewashere"]

Yes, it's making me very sad. Because it's making me question whether the show will be good or not...

I hope its better...and I hope the Jossy humor is back...because that's the one thing me and my mom said was totally missing. That there was no chemistry between the characters or anything.

Also, the part that won me over in the pilot was the evolution of the "you can't kill a ghost" line and even on that part my dad said, "Wow, that's such a coincidence that they just HAPPENED to implant her with that personality. It's all very far fetched."

hitnrun, make me feel better.

[hitnrun017]

I'd say just wait the first few episodes out. There was a lot of network meddling, and Joss said he's happy with where the show is heading past the first five or six episodes. FOX said they started leaving him alone and just let him do his thing.

[Tyler Austin "tiewashere"]

Feb 17, 2009 21:55:43 GMT -5 hitnrun017 said:

I'd say just wait the first few episodes out. There was a lot of network meddling, and Joss said he's happy with where the show is heading past the first five or six episodes. FOX said they started leaving him alone and just let him do his thing.

Hopefully I can get my mom to wait it out that long

[Emmie]

Tie, maybe try reading this essay by Pointy that I posted earlier. It really shows how enlightening and complex the premise and episode is.

Dollhouse isn't going to be as light and entertaining as Whedon's other shows and to be honest, yeah there wasn't a huge amount of humor in the first episode. Which is very deliberate. It's a serious exploration of the mind, body and spirit and how these constructs come together to form what we know as "identity". My best advice is to ask whoever you're showing Dollhouse to let go of their expectations of Whedon from his past works. The humor most especially.

There are aspects of Whedon that are very much present here, but they're the subtler ones that most people watching a show don't take the time to explore or ponder over. There's strong themes and allusions that aren't very common in television found here (something Whedon is known for), there will be a strong arc and a definite plan for where the story is headed, and the characters will become 3-dimensional and complex.

The next episode is supposed to be very, very good (as Ethan already said) and from reports from Whedon and Co. the show really hits its stride towards the latter half of this season.

I'm very excited for Dollhouse, but I'll admit I'm not completely in love with the pilot. What I see is the most amazing potential for a TV series I've seen in a long time and it's actually making me excited to watch it all unfold.

[siredbyspike]

I liked the pilot episode, it teased me and made me want to see more, but i just have a couple of random questions...
At the end when they all get wiped and shower together, does that mean that they also wiped the sex drive or urges or whatever? Cause that was totally a co-ed shower and nobody acted like they cared, lol. If so that is a pretty cool idea that they just wipe them to a clean, empty slate and they pretty much just float around kind of oblivious to each other. I noticed Echo vapidly smiled at some of the people she passed, but seemed to not really care if they were there. And also when they go down into their little cubbyholes to sleep i noticed the doors slide shut so they are trapped in there- maybe that's how they keep them from getting away and wandering around? Do they wipe the need to potty in the middle of the night also? Do they control them medically somehow to keep them from having to go? I also assumed that they use a trigger of some sort to get them to return for "treatment", like something subliminal and maybe they don't even know what the treatment is, just that they have the urge to go do it?
And it is also intriguing to me that they made Echo have asthma and wear glasses, it would make it more believable to the active that way- they would feel more like everybody else if there was a glitch, and not be thinking that they were "too good at stuff" and possibly break the imprint. With her knee getting hurt, that made me wonder what happens when they break bones or something more serious, do they wipe them and treat that kind of thing in-house? Or do they have some kind of uber medical technology that makes them heal quicker and be stronger than normal people? Or do they just get the yoga and the massage and that's it? Grrrr, i am so curious about all of this, but so glad to finally have another Joss show to play the waiting game with! I almost cried when i saw the Grrr Arrgh at the end!!

[dane5by5]

Feb 18, 2009 3:53:20 GMT -5 siredbyspike said:

I liked the pilot episode, it teased me and made me want to see more, but i just have a couple of random questions...
At the end when they all get wiped and shower together, does that mean that they also wiped the sex drive or urges or whatever? Cause that was totally a co-ed shower and nobody acted like they cared, lol. If so that is a pretty cool idea that they just wipe them to a clean, empty slate and they pretty much just float around kind of oblivious to each other. I noticed Echo vapidly smiled at some of the people she passed, but seemed to not really care if they were there. And also when they go down into their little cubbyholes to sleep i noticed the doors slide shut so they are trapped in there- maybe that's how they keep them from getting away and wandering around? Do they wipe the need to potty in the middle of the night also? Do they control them medically somehow to keep them from having to go? I also assumed that they use a trigger of some sort to get them to return for "treatment", like something subliminal and maybe they don't even know what the treatment is, just that they have the urge to go do it?
And it is also intriguing to me that they made Echo have asthma and wear glasses, it would make it more believable to the active that way- they would feel more like everybody else if there was a glitch, and not be thinking that they were "too good at stuff" and possibly break the imprint. With her knee getting hurt, that made me wonder what happens when they break bones or something more serious, do they wipe them and treat that kind of thing in-house? Or do they have some kind of uber medical technology that makes them heal quicker and be stronger than normal people? Or do they just get the yoga and the massage and that's it? Grrrr, i am so curious about all of this, but so glad to finally have another Joss show to play the waiting game with! I almost cried when i saw the Grrr Arrgh at the end!!

That raises very interesting issues regarding the sexuality of people in general. It becomes a nature vs. nuture issue that has been discussed since the inception of the series. The question it appears to ask is, if people are wiped of all memories and experience, do they have an innate sexuality and sexual desire, or is this programmed by society and experiences? In removing a persons identity, are you removing their sexual orientation and the instinct to procreate? Or does that remain intact, a intrinsic biological aspect of each person that cannot be erased?

This is why Dollhouse is such an incredible premise, it has so many possibilities and the opportunity to explore philosophical, psychological, societal and even biological and scientific notions, in interesting and original ways.

If Joss Whedon and the writers/producers decide to portray the actives as asexual when they are in their "wiped" state, it would also be intriguing for the series to explore homosexuality in the sense of if you can remove that aspect of a person by removing their memories and experiences and identity, or if it is the inherent nature of an individual. This could be potentially contentious, but fascinating nonetheless.

Concerning the pod/coffin/beds, I think someone else has said it reminds them of a womb, which makes complete sense in the context. The "dolls" are protected (security) yet vulnerable (no free will) and unaware. It is symbolic of the circumstances the actives are living and involved with.

[ligeia]

I liked this pilot episode, the first minutes were not the best (like Firefly) but then it gets much better. I think it's way too early to judge the chemestry between the characters, let's wait and see, I'm sure we're gonna be astonished. I just want to say that Amy Acker really shines and her characters seems very interesting (reminds me of Shepherd from Firefly as she stands for the "mysterious-past-character"). This looks all very promising to me, I pray that Dollhouse doesn't end abruptly like Firefly...

[Tyler Austin "tiewashere"]

Feb 17, 2009 22:27:58 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Tie, maybe try reading this essay by Pointy that I posted earlier. It really shows how enlightening and complex the premise and episode is.

Dollhouse isn't going to be as light and entertaining as Whedon's other shows and to be honest, yeah there wasn't a huge amount of humor in the first episode. Which is very deliberate. It's a serious exploration of the mind, body and spirit and how these constructs come together to form what we know as "identity". My best advice is to ask whoever you're showing Dollhouse to let go of their expectations of Whedon from his past works. The humor most especially.

There are aspects of Whedon that are very much present here, but they're the subtler ones that most people watching a show don't take the time to explore or ponder over. There's strong themes and allusions that aren't very common in television found here (something Whedon is known for), there will be a strong arc and a definite plan for where the story is headed, and the characters will become 3-dimensional and complex.

The next episode is supposed to be very, very good (as Ethan already said) and from reports from Whedon and Co. the show really hits its stride towards the latter half of this season.

I'm very excited for Dollhouse, but I'll admit I'm not completely in love with the pilot. What I see is the most amazing potential for a TV series I've seen in a long time and it's actually making me excited to watch it all unfold.

Oh, that's an awesome essay .

But it's not really the premise and humor (it is somewhat).

They made fun of the "random coincidence of giving some girl the personality of a girl with the same abuser she's investigating" (you know what I mean lol).

They made fun of the dialogue in the beginning. For example, "have you ever tried to clean an actual slate, you always see what was on it before." (which was awful, but granted...)

They made fun of Eliza's face when she is wiped of a personality and how she talks. For example, "she hurts." (Which I think is fine...without a personality you're basically back to the basics as a child).

And my father, who hated it most, laughs at EVERY commercial comes on. He did tonight when they said "the journey of the Dollhouse is just beginning" and the first preview with "the rouge agent will stop at nothing to bring the Dollhouse down". Why is that funny? It's just a marketing gimmick.

Sadning. But I did get to throw in today how this weeks is supposed to be good.

[Emmie]

Feb 18, 2009 22:31:50 GMT -5 Tyler Austin "tiewashere" said:

Feb 17, 2009 22:27:58 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Tie, maybe try reading this essay by Pointy that I posted earlier. It really shows how enlightening and complex the premise and episode is.

Dollhouse isn't going to be as light and entertaining as Whedon's other shows and to be honest, yeah there wasn't a huge amount of humor in the first episode. Which is very deliberate. It's a serious exploration of the mind, body and spirit and how these constructs come together to form what we know as "identity". My best advice is to ask whoever you're showing Dollhouse to let go of their expectations of Whedon from his past works. The humor most especially.

There are aspects of Whedon that are very much present here, but they're the subtler ones that most people watching a show don't take the time to explore or ponder over. There's strong themes and allusions that aren't very common in television found here (something Whedon is known for), there will be a strong arc and a definite plan for where the story is headed, and the characters will become 3-dimensional and complex.

The next episode is supposed to be very, very good (as Ethan already said) and from reports from Whedon and Co. the show really hits its stride towards the latter half of this season.

I'm very excited for Dollhouse, but I'll admit I'm not completely in love with the pilot. What I see is the most amazing potential for a TV series I've seen in a long time and it's actually making me excited to watch it all unfold.

Oh, that's an awesome essay .

But it's not really the premise and humor (it is somewhat).

They made fun of the "random coincidence of giving some girl the personality of a girl with the same abuser she's investigating" (you know what I mean lol).

They made fun of the dialogue in the beginning. For example, "have you ever tried to clean an actual slate, you always see what was on it before." (which was awful, but granted...)

They made fun of Eliza's face when she is wiped of a personality and how she talks. For example, "she hurts." (Which I think is fine...without a personality you're basically back to the basics as a child).

And my father, who hated it most, laughs at EVERY commercial comes on. He did tonight when they said "the journey of the Dollhouse is just beginning" and the first preview with "the rouge agent will stop at nothing to bring the Dollhouse down". Why is that funny? It's just a marketing gimmick.

Sadning. But I did get to throw in today how this weeks is supposed to be good.

Did they never see 'Welcome to the Hellmouth'? There's some absolutely cringeworthy lines there and how about the coincidence of Buffy miraculously going to the high school where she was most needed. There's going to be weak points in the pilot. The pilots are always the weakest parts of Whedon shows imo.

But the essay was meant to demonstrate that what makes Whedon shows great is definitely there in 'Ghost', but it's very subtle. The key is to recognize the potential there.

[wenxina]

About the sexuality/asexuality issue, I think there is plenty of room to explore certain ideas there, but on a very simple level (until we see more), it speaks of the childlike state the Actives fall back to. That's actually an aspect I wanted to see more of. Kids aren't shy... that's something that's acquired later on.

[Nicholas]

Feb 18, 2009 6:25:41 GMT -5 dane5by5 said:

Feb 18, 2009 3:53:20 GMT -5 siredbyspike said:

I liked the pilot episode, it teased me and made me want to see more, but i just have a couple of random questions...
At the end when they all get wiped and shower together, does that mean that they also wiped the sex drive or urges or whatever? Cause that was totally a co-ed shower and nobody acted like they cared, lol. If so that is a pretty cool idea that they just wipe them to a clean, empty slate and they pretty much just float around kind of oblivious to each other. I noticed Echo vapidly smiled at some of the people she passed, but seemed to not really care if they were there. And also when they go down into their little cubbyholes to sleep i noticed the doors slide shut so they are trapped in there- maybe that's how they keep them from getting away and wandering around? Do they wipe the need to potty in the middle of the night also? Do they control them medically somehow to keep them from having to go? I also assumed that they use a trigger of some sort to get them to return for "treatment", like something subliminal and maybe they don't even know what the treatment is, just that they have the urge to go do it?
And it is also intriguing to me that they made Echo have asthma and wear glasses, it would make it more believable to the active that way- they would feel more like everybody else if there was a glitch, and not be thinking that they were "too good at stuff" and possibly break the imprint. With her knee getting hurt, that made me wonder what happens when they break bones or something more serious, do they wipe them and treat that kind of thing in-house? Or do they have some kind of uber medical technology that makes them heal quicker and be stronger than normal people? Or do they just get the yoga and the massage and that's it? Grrrr, i am so curious about all of this, but so glad to finally have another Joss show to play the waiting game with! I almost cried when i saw the Grrr Arrgh at the end!!

That raises very interesting issues regarding the sexuality of people in general. It becomes a nature vs. nuture issue that has been discussed since the inception of the series. The question it appears to ask is, if people are wiped of all memories and experience, do they have an innate sexuality and sexual desire, or is this programmed by society and experiences? In removing a persons identity, are you removing their sexual orientation and the instinct to procreate? Or does that remain intact, a intrinsic biological aspect of each person that cannot be erased?

This is why Dollhouse is such an incredible premise, it has so many possibilities and the opportunity to explore philosophical, psychological, societal and even biological and scientific notions, in interesting and original ways.

If Joss Whedon and the writers/producers decide to portray the actives as asexual when they are in their "wiped" state, it would also be intriguing for the series to explore homosexuality in the sense of if you can remove that aspect of a person by removing their memories and experiences and identity, or if it is the inherent nature of an individual. This could be potentially contentious, but fascinating nonetheless.

Concerning the pod/coffin/beds, I think someone else has said it reminds them of a womb, which makes complete sense in the context. The "dolls" are protected (security) yet vulnerable (no free will) and unaware. It is symbolic of the circumstances the actives are living and involved with.

It was stated by Joss himself that sexuality was going to be a VERY LARGE part of the series.

I really like the pods that they sleep in because its just very interesting to me to see that it has two meanings: 1) an actual dollhouse bed 2) a womb.

Its all very interesting to see. I really like how more adult themed this show seems to be, which I think is something that may actually contrast very highly with some of his other shows.

[Tyler Austin "tiewashere"]

Feb 18, 2009 22:45:29 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Feb 18, 2009 22:31:50 GMT -5 Tyler Austin "tiewashere" said:

Oh, that's an awesome essay .

But it's not really the premise and humor (it is somewhat).

They made fun of the "random coincidence of giving some girl the personality of a girl with the same abuser she's investigating" (you know what I mean lol).

They made fun of the dialogue in the beginning. For example, "have you ever tried to clean an actual slate, you always see what was on it before." (which was awful, but granted...)

They made fun of Eliza's face when she is wiped of a personality and how she talks. For example, "she hurts." (Which I think is fine...without a personality you're basically back to the basics as a child).

And my father, who hated it most, laughs at EVERY commercial comes on. He did tonight when they said "the journey of the Dollhouse is just beginning" and the first preview with "the rouge agent will stop at nothing to bring the Dollhouse down". Why is that funny? It's just a marketing gimmick.

Sadning. But I did get to throw in today how this weeks is supposed to be good.

Did they never see 'Welcome to the Hellmouth'? There's some absolutely cringeworthy lines there and how about the coincidence of Buffy miraculously going to the high school where she was most needed. There's going to be weak points in the pilot. The pilots are always the weakest parts of Whedon shows imo.

But the essay was meant to demonstrate that what makes Whedon shows great is definitely there in 'Ghost', but it's very subtle. The key is to recognize the potential there.

Yes, they've seen those episodes. Actually both Firefly and Buffy's pilots. And though they've said they'd try again this week and give the show a chance...its still sad they didn't enjoy it.

I'll update after they see the new episodes tomorrow.

[Mayor Of F♥ckville]

I just now finished watching this on Hulu, and it was actually pretty interesting, and intense!

I love the look Echo gets when she gets wiped clean.. kinda like a sad puppy

[joxerlives]

GHOST

The good;
More involving plot, more drama and excitiment and more realistic depiction of the reality of the Dollhouse.

The bad;
The bike ride is stupid, such a Hollywood cliche that they turn out to be racing. Boyd is the worst sniper ever, demonstrating why you should always use a semi-auto rifle. Her client is also way to handsome as Joss and ED comment but if she'd turned up with an ordinary looking guy would we not know something was up? Plenty of pandering to the studio frankly. How does Sierra fire 3 rounds from her pump action shotgun without working the action?

Best line;
Addy "Nothing is what it appears to be" (how true that will turn out to be!)
also like Tophers
"Everybody who's running to something is also running away"

Packing heat;
Sierra with a shotgun and pistol (although she has a carbine in the chopper?), Boyd with a pistol and sniper rifle.

Kinky dinky;
ED dancing is always a treat. especially in her 'decent by half an inch' dress. She also does a twirl around the stripper pole move when she gets into the van (check out her film The New Guy for more in that vein). We also get to glimpse her having bondage sex with her client. On the other hand her sexy librarian look is also quite something. Giles says he has a thing about libraries/librarians, wonder if Tony Head knows?

How'd they get away with that?
All the stuff with the kidnapped girl and what happened to Echo's personality as a kid is horrific. Sierra's first treatment is hard to watch.

This weeks fantasy;
Sierra is a SWAT team commander, Echo is a bike-riding party girl and hostage negotiator.

Total number personalitites;
2 for Echo making a total of; 6
1 for Sierra making; 2
1 for Victor

Total dolls;3
Echo, Sierra and Victor

Addy is a bit British;
It's the tea again

Topher is a bit geeky;

Subverting the Hollywood cliche

Bondage;
Echo ties up her client during sex

Knocked out

Kills;
Sierra kills 2 of the kidnappers

Dolls injured;
Echo slapped around by the kidnapper

Capt subtext
Dr Saunders offers Echo a massage. One wonders how she danced so wonderfully after dropping a motorbike on her leg?

Happy hookers
This time Echo explicitly does have sex with her paying client

Know the face?
Recurring Joss Whedon stars 3 ;Amy Acker, Eliza Dushku and Ballards sparring partner was the 'walking action figure' Spike had to fight in season 6 of Buffy to get his soul back. Also look out for Tim Kellehen who was also in Dark Skies, another conspiracy-fest series where he played a similar character (his Dark Skies co-star Conor Farrell also turns up in Buffy as the soldier who takes over The Initiative)

Guantanamo

Fanfic
Plenty of bondage sex in fanfic

Missing scenes

Reminds me off;
Adele is very Lilah like whilst Dominic is very Marcus. The relationship between Active and Handler very reminiscent of Watcher and Slayer. Ballards FBI contact is called Loomis which may be a Halloween reference.The boat sequence was so Miami Vice I had to check that Boyd was wearing socks. The kidnapped girl stuff is reminiscent of the Angel ep 'Damage'.

Questions and observations;
Caroline remarks 'Like she always said', is this Mrs Dundee whom she refers to in her video? Obviously it's not ED doing all the bike work but can she ride at all? You wonder what the Faith on a motorcycle spinoff would have been like especially with ghost-Spike as sidekick? The first time I ever actually heard Lady Gaga was watching this ep. Caroline says 'Hello mom' in her video, is her family still out there? The kidnap victim's dad refers to 'That reality crap', Joss putting the boot in? ED refers to her first movie with period cars which was presumably 'This Boys Life'. Joss is a fan of BSG AND Millers Crossing, he sure has taste! Obviously the budget is pretty tight to judge by their comments. What does Echo mean when she babbles 'Is it bigger than your thumb?'

7 out of 10, combine this and Echo and it would be much better

[henzINNIT]

With numerous rewatches I've found this episode more and more cheesy and uninteresting. Pandering to the network is right. Everything is "sexy", a complete bastardisation of the original premise, and the dialogue walks a clumsy line between mysterious and totally dumbed down, giving you the feeling that an idiot is talking down to you lol. "Echo" is far superior.

[joxerlives]

A little bit of populism is sometimes a good thing, hence why the Scoobygirls dressed as they did in season 1&2, keep the show alive and you can then do you more self-indulgent stories