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Post by xsylviamoonx on Apr 26, 2009 20:36:45 GMT -5
OMG I CANT WAIT! I'm so excited!
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sarahi
Potential Slayer
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Posts: 101
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Post by sarahi on Apr 27, 2009 16:22:44 GMT -5
Jane Espenson is writing this episode? It'll definitely be great then. I read somewhere that Eliza said that what's so special about Echo is supposed to be brought up in this episode. Apparently there are more revelations coming. I wonder if any of those will be shown this week. I'm still trying to believe that Ballard would find Alpha and then survive long enough to infiltrate the Dollhouse on his own. Alpha obviously wants something from him, and I don't think it's just the satisfaction of hearing that Caroline has been rescued. Topher said that a treatment without a wipe first is impossible, but Topher says that a lot of things are impossible and yet Alpha does them without a conscience. The only other way for Alpha to get into the Dollhouse would be to infiltrate it himself, but everyone there is probably expecting him, unless he wanted to use Ballard as a distraction and sneak in, but then a lot of armed people would have to be occupied with one FBI agent. |
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Post by hitnrun017 on May 1, 2009 17:02:00 GMT -5
Added a link to some preview clips.
So excited for tonight!
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Post by wenxina on May 1, 2009 17:06:03 GMT -5
4 preview clips added to first post. Very spoilerish... I'd suggest not watching if you don't wanna be spoiled.
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Post by Wyndam on May 1, 2009 21:09:49 GMT -5
Wow was Alan Tudyk brilliant tonight or what? Best performance yet on the show, easily. That's all I got for now.  Oh, and poor Victor's face. |
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Joe
Wise-cracking Sidekick
Obsessive Paranoid Boob
"Gypsies are filthy people! We shall speak of zem no more!" *spits* -Ilona Costa Bianchi[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,786
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Post by Joe on May 1, 2009 21:11:08 GMT -5
GREAT EPISODE. I felt so bad for Mellie! Stupid Paul, stop obsessing over Caroline. I love Echo's loyalty to Boyd. Now Victor will have matching scars now with Claire! Paul is definitely gonna be wiped. And most important of all... What the hell is up with Alpha and Echo and who the hell did he imprint her as? OMG that was surprisingly the biggest shock of all season when they started kissing. It caught me off guard completely. Only complaint is that there's a wee bit too much Paul in this episode and not enough Echo. Can't wait till next week, but it'll be bittersweet!   |
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Post by hitnrun017 on May 1, 2009 21:26:08 GMT -5
Eh, was kind of underwhelmed. It was a great episode, but the preview last week took pretty much all of the suspense and surprises away from the episode. The whole beginning part with the two Susans was nice and I liked how it mirrored the rest of the episode, but it just wasn't interesting at all. Another problem I had with it was Paul. I haven't really liked his character the last few episodes, and after this it's safe to say he's my least favorite character. His holier than thou attitude just pisses me off, and I'm sorry, but Tahmoh was just terrible.
Now onto the stuff I loved: Enver as Laurence! Was so amazed by how perfectly he captured the way Reed Diamond played him... the voice, movements, mannerisms. I agree with Wyn that Alan Tudyk's performance was the best in the show so far. The moment he cut Victor's face was jaw dropping, aw, poor Victor. Amy was also genius in that scene, I felt so scared for her. This episode was just full of amazing performances, Mircale also shined. The Paul/Boyd fight was genius. Really happy Boyd ending up winning. Echo flashing back to previous events was very cool.
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Post by Emmie on May 1, 2009 22:22:04 GMT -5
I loved the moment when Echo said to Ballard, "I trust you" and he looks at her almost as if to say "maybe you shouldn't" - the flashes back to The Target were great in raising the trust issue. I believe that was when the real bond of trust was built between them. And of course, they're playing a fine line between the real trust and fabricated trust, but then trust is in someways predicated on an illusion, the perception of how we view a person. That's why the betrayal of trust is so shocking - who we thought a person to be turns out differently.
Really great episode. Yes, the Briar Rose metaphor was a bit heavyhanded but I enjoyed the ideas about the Princess rescuing herself but it being okay to need help. And I loved how many princes there were in this episode trying to rescue Echo from Boyd, to Ballard to finally Alpha. As Boyd and Ballard were fighting I kept thinking of the Prince fighting the Dragon in Sleeping Beauty, yet they're both the Dragon and the Prince in a way. Neither one plays the straight hero. And while they're not looking - the dark Prince steals Echo and restores her to who/what he wants her to be, his dark companion.
So the question still remains - why is Alpha so obsessed with Echo? Specifically Echo and not Caroline.
Agreed on all the fantastic performances this week - the two standouts being Alan and Enver. Incredible work. Gah, Alan was so thoroughly hilarios and entertaining to terrifying towards the end. Powerful switch and a fully realized performance.
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Post by wenxina on May 1, 2009 22:33:35 GMT -5
Wow... riveting stuff, and what a bloody cliffhanger. Overall, very happy with the ep. Loved the whole "Briar Rose" thing and how it paralleled the entire episode, EXCEPT for the one moment of heavy-handed imagery, with Susan's reading overlaying Paul's entry into the Dollhouse. We get it... he's kinda like the prince. No need to bash us over the head with it. Tudyk was excellent as Alpha, with all his agoraphobic nuances. However, I find it awfully convenient that Alpha decided to act just when Paul found out about the eco guy. I get that he's a genius, but was that just blind luck, or has he been stalking Paul? Interesting that Alpha had been in contact with Dominic. I'm gonna venture a guess and say that the whole "The Dollhouse deals in fantasy, but it is not their purpose" thing was just a sham to rile Paul up more? Coz the way it looks, all Alpha really wanted to do was to get back into the Dollhouse. Why he didn't just enter himself, have no clue. Maybe he just needed the big-ass diversion that he knew Paul would be. Paul, Paul, Paul. Man can be a real todger at times. Constantly going on about saving Caroline, but November be damned. Sure, November could go all sleeper-ninja on him, but what's to say that Caroline can't? Both of them have had extra parameters imprinted before... and as far as he knows, all Dolls are the same. But the Boyd vs. Paul fight was brutal. Even more so than Echo vs. Paul in "Man on the Street". That one looks like a choreographed ballet compared to the all-out brawl these two wannabe princes got into. Kinda ironic how they both think they're protecting Echo/Caroline. |
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Post by Emmie on May 1, 2009 22:40:42 GMT -5
Tudyk was excellent as Alpha, with all his agoraphobic nuances. However, I find it awfully convenient that Alpha decided to act just when Paul found out about the eco guy. I get that he's a genius, but was that just blind luck, or has he been stalking Paul? My understanding is that Alpha has been leaving bread crumbs for Ballard to follow for this very purpose, to send in the faux!prince to steal away Briar Rose as a distraction so he could actually steal/rescue his princess Echo. And Paul only found eco guy because Alpha leaked that altered info to him including Alpha's picture on the data instead of the real eco guy's profile. All a big set up by the "genius". Paul, Paul, Paul. Man can be a real todger at times. Constantly going on about saving Caroline, but November be damned. Sure, November could go all sleeper-ninja on him, but what's to say that Caroline can't? Both of them have had extra parameters imprinted before... and as far as he knows, all Dolls are the same. But the Boyd vs. Paul fight was brutal. Even more so than Echo vs. Paul in "Man on the Street". That one looks like a choreographed ballet compared to the all-out brawl these two wannabe princes got into. Kinda ironic how they both think they're protecting Echo/Caroline. It's something almost bigoted going on here. Paul doesn't rescue November because she's not a real person to be rescued or trusted - she could turn on him and kill him in a second. But Caroline is real and, more importantly, has been asking for Paul to help her. She even called him a few episodes ago. She's real. A real victim to him. The real princess. Which to me seems like it's smacking of discrimination because posters have been mentioning how they don't want Echo to disappear and for Caroline to be restored, that it would be like Echo were murdered in Caroline's place and that Echo has developed into her own person. So wouldn't this too mean that Mellie is her own person in a way. What's real? Who has a legitimate identity? Ballard is suffering from viewing this world in black and white, seeing only the original personalities as the true people. They are superior and the ones deserving of being "saved". Mellie is a second-class citizen to Caroline in Ballard's eyes. Caroline is real, Mellie isn't. |
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Post by wenxina on May 1, 2009 22:56:34 GMT -5
My understanding is that Alpha has been leaving bread crumbs for Ballard to follow for this very purpose, to send in the faux!prince to steal away Briar Rose as a distraction so he could actually steal/rescue his princess Echo. And Paul only found eco guy because Alpha leaked that altered info to him including Alpha's picture on the data instead of the real eco guy's profile. All a big set up by the "genius". Understood that much, but the timing was just really perfect, no? With murdering the real eco guy, planting the corpse in Arizona, posing in his apartment and all. I guess he was just getting ready, but it all fell into place so neatly that it kinda requires a suspension of disbelief. Btw, read your thoughts, and all I will say is "Get out of my head!!!" We pretty much hit on some of the same points (i.e. the "prince" deal). It's something almost bigoted going on here. Paul doesn't rescue November because she's not a real person to be rescued or trusted - she could turn on him and kill him in a second. But Caroline is real and, more importantly, has been asking for Paul to help her. She even called him a few episodes ago. She's real. A real victim to him. The real princess. Which to me seems like it's smacking of discrimination because posters have been mentioning how they don't want Echo to disappear and for Caroline to be restored, that it would be like Echo were murdered in Caroline's place and that Echo has developed into her own person. So wouldn't this too mean that Mellie is her own person in a way. What's real? Who has a legitimate identity? Ballard is suffering from viewing this world in black and white, seeing only the original personalities as the true people. They are superior and the ones deserving of being "saved". Caroline may be "realer", but Echo is no more real than November is. And if he's worried that November could turn on him in a second, what makes him think that Echo can't? Of the two, Echo's the only one to have actually kicked his ass up, down, and sideways. Identity is shifty... the basic idea of a Doll is one that is devoid of personality. Which we know isn't entirely true, but that was how they were supposed to be, according to that "tabula rasa" spiel. Caroline is real, Echo was created when they wiped away Caroline. Funny thing is, as an audience, Echo is definitely more real to us than Caroline is. Also, Caroline's dull as doorknobs. |
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Post by Emmie on May 1, 2009 23:05:48 GMT -5
Understood that much, but the timing was just really perfect, no? With murdering the real eco guy, planting the corpse in Arizona, posing in his apartment and all. I guess he was just getting ready, but it all fell into place so neatly that it kinda requires a suspension of disbelief. Btw, read your thoughts, and all I will say is "Get out of my head!!!" We pretty much hit on some of the same points (i.e. the "prince" deal). I think Alpha leaked that info to Ballard so he would know exactly when Ballard would be knocking on eco guy's door (Keppler, I believe) and would find Alpha there instead. Since the leaked info had Alpha's pic on the profile, it had to have come from Alpha. I don't think it really required a big suspension of disbelief there. Although maybe I'm missing what you're saying lol. And you get out of my brain! Haha. Caroline may be "realer", but Echo is no more real than November is. And if he's worried that November could turn on him in a second, what makes him think that Echo can't? Of the two, Echo's the only one to have actually kicked his ass up, down, and sideways. Identity is shifty... the basic idea of a Doll is one that is devoid of personality. Which we know isn't entirely true, but that was how they were supposed to be, according to that "tabula rasa" spiel. Caroline is real, Echo was created when they wiped away Caroline. Funny thing is, as an audience, Echo is definitely more real to us than Caroline is. Also, Caroline's dull as doorknobs. Echo is no more real than November, but Paul was calling Echo "Caroline", so he sees her as real while he sees "Mellie" as one to not be trusted. I think it's more that Paul has a seriously messed up idea of what his "princess" is and that just by getting her out of there, she'll be saved. It's actually incredibly similar to Caroline's mission in Needs - just wanting to get the Dolls out of the building and believing that's all she needs to do. Ballard has the same mission - he just wants to get "Caroline" out of the building but has no concept of her psychological make-up and the fact that she's missing a few pieces of the puzzle in her head.. My, how they're similar. Definitely, as an audience Echo is the real person, Caroline is the shadow figure. |
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Post by VampSlayer on May 1, 2009 23:51:55 GMT -5
One word. Perfect. No, that isnt good enough. This was a amazing episode! I loved it! Best so far!
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Post by tms on May 2, 2009 0:01:09 GMT -5
Waitwaitwait....SEASON finale!? Are they trying to say something there?!
BTW, Best episode yet, hands down.
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Maggie
Innocent Bystander
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Post by Maggie on May 2, 2009 0:03:55 GMT -5
Really great episode. Yes, the Briar Rose metaphor was a bit heavyhanded but I enjoyed the ideas about the Princess rescuing herself but it being okay to need help. And I loved how many princes there were in this episode trying to rescue Echo from Boyd, to Ballard to finally Alpha. As Boyd and Ballard were fighting I kept thinking of the Prince fighting the Dragon in Sleeping Beauty, yet they're both the Dragon and the Prince in a way. Neither one plays the straight hero. And while they're not looking - the dark Prince steals Echo and restores her to who/what he wants her to be, his dark companion. IIRC, the twist was that the princess dreams the prince. Who knows what the background is between Echo and Alpha -- but my guess is that it will turn out that Echo or Caroline or whoever else it is that she turns out to be had a hand in the overall plot. I love that the 'real' prince was Alpha. And well, yeah, dark. But Paul also dark. And Boyd also dark. So I think there are plenty of dark princes to go around. I'm assuming Alpha had been priming Paul to be the fake prince all along. But my question is how did Alpha figure that the idea of Caroline would wedge so deeply into Paul's psyche? Cause I don't think Paul's passing by of Mellie was so much because Mellie wasn't worth it as it was that he's just scarily obsessed with Caroline. And somehow Alpha had to know that Paul was going to go crazy-man obsessed on the basis of a few leads about Caroline. Can't wait til next week. If this hold's to Whedon's pattern, the second part will blow this one out of the water. |
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Post by wenxina on May 2, 2009 0:10:51 GMT -5
I think Alpha leaked that info to Ballard so he would know exactly when Ballard would be knocking on eco guy's door (Keppler, I believe) and would find Alpha there instead. Since the leaked info had Alpha's pic on the profile, it had to have come from Alpha. I don't think it really required a big suspension of disbelief there. Although maybe I'm missing what you're saying lol. And you get out of my brain! Haha. Whether the info was leaked, or just planted, it still felt like timing that was way too good. All Alpha did was plant the picture. Paul found the connection by himself. For Alpha to have anticipated exactly when Paul would find that lead seemed a little too convenient for me. That's my only point... that it seemed too convenient. |
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Post by AndrewCrossett on May 2, 2009 0:16:33 GMT -5
So... Alpha grabbed the real Stephen Kepler, downloaded his personality, killed him, imprinted himself with the stolen personality (without needing a Chair), and took over Kepler's home and life. Used that personality to break into the Dollhouse, take over its systems... and then voluntarily switched off the Kepler personality when he was done.
This Alpha is one bad mofo.
This was the best performance I've ever seen out of Alan Tudyk, and that's saying a lot. Jane was in rare form writing his character, too.
Very happy to see that my theory from "True Believer" -- that Dominic was in cahoots with Alpha -- is true.
This show has a very weird dynamic in that the star (Echo) and the protagonist (Ballard) are two different people. Very unusual choice in that Echo has been reduced to just a mostly-clueless damsel in distress waiting to be swept away by her prince (the good one or the evil one). Certainly quite a change from Buffy in the "girl power" department.
So... anyone think they're going to find Claire's dead body at the beginning of next week's episode?
This was, I think, the best episode yet. I dread the inevitable lousy ratings news tomorrow.
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Post by Emmie on May 2, 2009 0:21:39 GMT -5
IIRC, the twist was that the princess dreams the prince. Who knows what the background is between Echo and Alpha -- but my guess is that it will turn out that Echo or Caroline or whoever else it is that she turns out to be had a hand in the overall plot. I love that the 'real' prince was Alpha. And well, yeah, dark. But Paul also dark. And Boyd also dark. So I think there are plenty of dark princes to go around. Right. Paul and Boyd are dark Princes, but Alpha is the darkest "genius" puppetmaster Prince. Regarding the twist and the Prince is the creation of the Princess' dreams, I imagine something Echo did in her past is what's motivating Alpha now. Perhaps she was the catalyst for his composite event and Alpha tries to force this even to be reflected in her in the next episode. I'm assuming Alpha had been priming Paul to be the fake prince all along. But my question is how did Alpha figure that the idea of Caroline would wedge so deeply into Paul's psyche? Cause I don't think Paul's passing by of Mellie was so much because Mellie wasn't worth it as it was that he's just scarily obsessed with Caroline. And somehow Alpha had to know that Paul was going to go crazy-man obsessed on the basis of a few leads about Caroline. I've been assuming the same thing - that Alpha has been grooming Ballard. I'm guessing that Alpha maybe chose Paul somehow, knew he was primed for this type of behavior. Maybe Alpha has some psychoanalytical talents up in that composite brain of his. Whether the info was leaked, or just planted, it still felt like timing that was way too good. All Alpha did was plant the picture. Paul found the connection by himself. For Alpha to have anticipated exactly when Paul would find that lead seemed a little too convenient for me. That's my only point... that it seemed too convenient. Unless Alpha had some way of knowing when Ballard got the info. Did "Paul find the connection by himself" or was it fed to him in a way that Alpha knew what he knew before he knew it? Lol. So... Alpha grabbed the real Stephen Kepler, downloaded his personality, killed him, imprinted himself with the stolen personality (without needing a Chair) Actually, pictures for the next episode reveal that Alpha has created his own chair to wipe and imprint personalities. |
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Just Willow
Wise-cracking Sidekick
Look to the Western Sky
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Post by Just Willow on May 2, 2009 1:07:05 GMT -5
awesomeness! i love jane! you can so see her style through everything. loved the whole thing with Stephen (Alpha) walking down the stairs with no risers and lifting his legs, like, above his head. and then later on Echo grabs Ballard throguh the stairs. loved the fight, too! |
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redhead
Common Vampire
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Post by redhead on May 2, 2009 5:38:44 GMT -5
Great episode!
I loved the twist with Alpha! When Claire came into her office and suddenly he turned from innocent eco-boy to crazy psycho! Defiantly stand out performance for the episode. Then kissing Echo at the end, I was so shocked!
Ballard was being a right idiot. He has a very similar personality to Caroline it seems, wanting to save everyone and not really thinking of the consequences. What exactly would his plan of been if he had got Echo out? When he opened the sleeper pod and saw November and he just left her I wanted to SCREAM! I just can't understand why he feels more for Echo? Obviously he has conflicting feelings about November, but I just would think he would want to save her as well?
The fight between Ballard and Boyd was pretty good as well. Especially when they fell into Victor's sleeping pod, I just loved his reaction.
Also, Victor as Dominic was great as well. Really got that perfect.
Finally, I love Adelle.
Only criticism was the constant reminder of the Briar Rose metaphor - I'm not a total moron I don't need to be constantly told!
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