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Post by Emmie on Feb 22, 2009 14:41:36 GMT -5
Echo Written by: Joss Whedon Directed by: Joss Whedon Air Date: Unaired (Season 1 DVD) |
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Malsad
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Post by Malsad on Feb 22, 2009 14:57:39 GMT -5
kool
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Post by hitnrun017 on Feb 22, 2009 15:00:53 GMT -5
I read this a couple months ago, and there are still plot points and scenes that will be used in the series (like a scene in next weeks episode) so beware of spoilers!
Writing and story-wise, this pilot is a lot better than Ghost.
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Post by Emmie on Feb 22, 2009 15:36:50 GMT -5
I just finished reading this for the first time and I gotta say, this pilot does such a better job of establishing the characters. Ugh. Why did they replace this?
It introduces Paul Ballard SO much better and actually made me like his character. Every main character's place within the show was clearly laid out. *This* is what I expect from a Whedon pilot that clearly shows the relationships of the characters and their motivations. After reading this I finally understand Ballard, Dr. Saunders, Topher and Adelle even better.
And not enough action? Seriously?! I was only reading this script and I couldn't stop once we got to the third and fourth acts. It was so exciting to read the interaction between Paul and Echo and the twists and turns. Amazing.
Plus the character of "Keene" makes way more sense to me now.
Ugh. Fox really screwed the pooch on this. Echo is so much better than Ghost.
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Post by Whedon Fan on Feb 22, 2009 22:12:29 GMT -5
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Post by Joe on Feb 23, 2009 19:29:41 GMT -5
I hope we get to see this someday in it's entirety. Maybe in the season 1 dvd boxset! That would be sweet. I don't have enough to read it today though. I'll read it tomorrow.
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Post by Whedon Fan on Feb 23, 2009 19:58:07 GMT -5
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Post by Joe on Feb 23, 2009 20:28:41 GMT -5
I`m hoping it`s included. Buffy`s wasn`t but I still have hope.
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Post by wenxina on Feb 23, 2009 22:51:23 GMT -5
You know what pisses me off? How much more promising "Echo" is compared to "Ghost". The tone is a lot more ambiguous, a lot more grey right from the start. Also, Echo's self-awareness that was the main selling point for me is present in this unaired pilot, which was totally lacking in "Ghost". Why didn't Fox just okay this? For one, Topher's a much stronger character in this pilot than his was in "Ghost". In retrospect, the Topher in "Ghost" was a neutered version of the original concept. I'm just hoping that Fox isn't trying to bleach out some of the grayness of the original concept of Dollhouse.
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Post by patxshand on Feb 23, 2009 23:46:42 GMT -5
I loved "Ghost." I thought it was the strongest of all of Whedon's series premieres after "City Of." Maybe even tied with "City Of." That being said, Joss has never really had a weak pilot, but "Buffy" took off later in the season and the first episode of "Firefly" moved too slow for a pilot. I loved "Ghost," thought it worked great as a standalone and built the foundation for some wonderful character development to come. I mean, look at the extremely, so Whedonesque emotional scene in "The Target." "Echo" might be great, but, in my opinion, so is "Ghost." I am VERY happy with "Dollhouse" as is.
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Post by wenxina on Feb 24, 2009 9:42:20 GMT -5
I loved "Ghost." I thought it was the strongest of all of Whedon's series premieres after "City Of." Maybe even tied with "City Of." That being said, Joss has never really had a weak pilot, but "Buffy" took off later in the season and the first episode of "Firefly" moved too slow for a pilot. I loved "Ghost," thought it worked great as a standalone and built the foundation for some wonderful character development to come. I mean, look at the extremely, so Whedonesque emotional scene in "The Target." "Echo" might be great, but, in my opinion, so is "Ghost." I am VERY happy with "Dollhouse" as is. While Buffy may have taken off later in the season, that didn't detract from the fact that the show's identity was set right there and then in the pilot. And that's what all the other good pilots have in common, a sense of identity. I actually liked the Firefly pilot and didn't think it was too slow at all. My main beef with the Dollhouse pilot is that it lacked a cohesive identity (ironic, indeed). And this was something I thought that "Echo" provided over "Ghost". "Echo" provided the tone of the series, which was definitely more in line with what I had come to expect from the early days of the show's conception. I understand that certain changes were made to the show, and thus the necessity of the new pilot. But the moral grayness of the show has been dampened, and some of the characters neutered. Topher was a lot more rounded in "Echo" than he has been the last two eps. His darker ambitions have been taken down a few rungs, and thus lessening the impact of the show's philosophical possibilities at the moment. |
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Post by Joe on Feb 24, 2009 16:34:16 GMT -5
Ok, I read it all, and I LOVE IT. It showed so much more of Sierra, Victor, and Paul. There were also a few of Joss's witty lines. A better story and a bigger explanation of how the actives work. It was better than "Ghost". I'm disappointed that this wasn't the actual first episode aired.
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Post by underbuffysspell on Feb 24, 2009 20:02:41 GMT -5
I really liked 'Echo'. Don't get me wrong, I liked 'Ghost', but 'Echo' set everything up better and was a whole lot more interesting. While watching the pilot that FOX approved, I kept thinking...'Is this it? Joss can do better!' and clearly he did. Which makes me wonder why FOX is trying so hard to ruin something so magnificent. Dx
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Post by dragonweaver on Feb 24, 2009 20:25:28 GMT -5
I've only just now gotten to reading this and I have to say I enjoyed it a lot. It's a shame that Fox didn't just leave it & Joss alone.
With that said, I still enjoyed "Ghost" and at the very least this script proves that Joss can make this show work, can make it interesting, and most importantly this script gives me hope that Joss and company will provide some fantastic episodes down the line.
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Post by Midnight Butterfly on Mar 14, 2009 10:15:29 GMT -5
I am guessing episode and six and after we will see alot more episodes like this because Fox gave Whedon more control over the program. Fox are the ones to blame for this episode not being aired. I believe they made the wrong decision as it appeals alot more to Whedon fans than Ghost does.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Jul 18, 2009 14:17:22 GMT -5
Bumping this up if people want to discuss it.
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Post by Spiked on Jul 18, 2009 15:03:30 GMT -5
I just watched this episode and I don't think I need to spoiler tag it, since it's not really canon or ruining anything.
Okay, I am officially pissed that FOX decided to air "Ghost" instead of this. I mean, "Ghost" was alright, but it was nowhere near as good as this! Everything about "Echo" was better...the characters (Paul and Dr. Saunders were totally different from how they were in the show), the relationships (especially the relationship between Topher and Dr. Saunders), the acting, the atmosphere, all of it. Speaking of the atmosphere, I immediately noticed how it was darker than the aired pilot...in fact, it was marginally more noticeable than the difference between the tones of "Serenity" and "The Train Job." It was more raw, violent, and morally ambiguous than anything we had seen, and I wish that the network didn't try to tone it down, since the darkness fits the concept of the show a lot more. It also had a lot more insight than any of the episodes, aside from maybe "Omega"...Topher's little monologue about how everyone is programmed by society was one of my favorite parts of not only the episode, but also the whole show, and I wish they had included it in another episode (speaking of which, they did take a lot of scenes from this pilot and incorporate them into the other episodes, including Epitaph One).
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Post by wytchcroft on Jul 18, 2009 17:22:01 GMT -5
I just watched this episode and Okay, I am officially pissed that FOX decided to air "Ghost" instead of this. I mean, "Ghost" was alright, but it was nowhere near as good as this! You are SO right!  But believe me, if you have a time machine - or really really enjoy playing cache and mouse then you can go track back the after preview screening comments from 08. Some of the responses were truly lunatic - so i'm not surprised the crew got their wheels spun. The pilot rocks - sure it's exposition heavy but it gets it done and moves everything along. Most of the reused material wound up in the rockstar episode but it never connected, one of the rougher factors of the show was that early on Ballard and Echo were so seperated. Apart from the good qualities you mention (and the absence of some of the suckier elements of Ghost) one thing i like in the pilot is that Echo gets to change personality a lot, whereas in the show proper they simply have her switch roles and demeanor which is not the same thing at all. |
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Post by VampSlayer on Jul 19, 2009 18:10:15 GMT -5
Well... Dollhouse could have been even MORE awesome! Stupid FOX... This episode was amazing.
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Post by theend on Jul 20, 2009 13:41:04 GMT -5
I really liked this ep - I agree they should have aired this as the first ep. Lame Fox. But also isn't Ballard THE most boring Joss character ever created. Urgh.
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