The Guardians and The Shadow Men

[Reika]

Lately I've been intrigued by the Guardians and who they were, exactly. We were never given a lot of information about them other than that they were as ancient as the Shadow Men and that they were also looking out for the Slayer.

What intrigues me the most, however, is the power that they forged into the Scythe. That power wasn't like the power the Shadow Men imbued into the First Slayer, or so I assume.

In Get It Done, when Buffy's chained to the ground, in a similar fashion to how the First Slayer was when she was given her power, the "black smoke" that tries to enter her body doesn't seem like a power of good. We know that the Slayer's power consisted of the heart, soul and spirit of the Shadow demon. So, obviously, it was "rooted in darkness" as mentioned by Dracula, and throughout the whole series the topic is also brought up. But when Willow does the Slayer spell in Chosen, the glow-y mist/light that surrounds her is very symbolic. Not only does it show us that perhaps she left behind her abuse of the black magicks, but by the sound of her "Oh, my God" she was fascinated with the power itself she set free form the Scythe.

The Shodow Men's power/smoke being dark/black and the Guardians' beings light/white was purposefully contradicting and emblematic.

But what I really wonder is where the Guardians acquired that power. I've read once an analysis by RockyTheFlash on this topic, that the Guardians had instead stole part of that power from the Shadow Men to store it for the Slayer for when the time came, and that's why they hid, hiding from the Shadow Men. His ideas consisted of more and were really interesting.

I wonder, though, were they truly hiding from the Shadow Men alone? The Guardians and the Shadow Men seemed to have opposing beliefs about the Slayer, where one saw her as a weapon to fight and nothing more and the other one, while never seemed present until the time had come, saw the Slayer a bit differently. The Guardian from End of Days says that they watched the Shadow Men, not seemingly in a way of caring for them but rather to see how they 'treated' the Slayer, as she states that they were women who wanted to help and protect the Slayer. But they probably didn't spend centuries simply hiding from the Shadow Men, but perhaps from evil itself. The Scythe's only purpose seemed to be to "kill the last pure demon that walked upon the Earth", that's why it had been set above the Hellmouth, before Sunnydale even existed. So it probably was set as a threat for a lot of different people/things.

The Guradian's last words, before Caleb kills her, when she says that the Scythe's a powerful weapon, yet that Buffy already had a weapon, seemed to be a realization not only to Buffy later on but perhaps to herself. The weapon's desired result was to kill the last aboriginal demon that walked on Earth, but when she says that Buffy could also use it wisely, she must've been seeing far ahead, saw Buffy's power, that she was different, that there were obviously other ways into using the Scythe -- wherein Buffy later discovered that that was sharing the power that was stocked in it with all the potentials.

There's also that scene from Get it Done, where the First Slayer appears to Buffy in her dreams and says that "It's not enough": Would that be presumably the power Buffy had, trying to convince Buffy to accept the power that would soon be given to her, or was she trying to lead Buffy into sharing her power with the potentials? She always seemed to be against the Slayer having any friends, though; believing in a life of utter solitude. Being offended by the spell done by the Gang in Primeval, stating that she believed the Slayer should fight alone. She later led Buffy to her destiny, showing her where her power came from and what it really was for, telling her that death was her gift, ultimately affecting Buffy's decision in The Gift. That was probably the time Buffy realized and accepted her power, truly understood what being a Slayer was. Sineya's power to prophetize was always very useful. Her whole story, the story of how the first Slayer came to be, how the power was forced into her, how she was forced to fight against the forces of darkness, and her unknown end; the topic on the Shadow Men and the Watchers and their seemingly misogyny view -- all of it, is truly an intriguing subject. Makes you want to understand it more.

Now back to the topic, if one's to consider that the power the Guardians had was pure and had the Scythe's power wasn't linked to the Shadow Men's power, then why would it have the same triggering effect on the potentials? If we consider that the Guardians' power wasn't connected to the Shadow Men's, then we could also consider that the power used to activate all those Slayers wasn't the same as the ones that triggered Buffy and Faith. If that power was indeed pure, then wouldn't that mean that Buffy and Faith were imbued with a power rooted in darkness, whereas these new Slayers had their power from a different source, a power of good, having no dakrness within them? And if this were in fact the truth, then I'd consider that they wouldn't actually be capable of fighting and killing, because, essentially, what affected a Slayer to endure all the killing and hardness was the 'dark' side of her power.

Although, we could also consider that there wasn't in fact a "power" in the Scythe, but that it simply worked as a key, a key to open the Slayer line and share the real Slayer's power, the power that came from the Shadow demon, sharing with all the potentials, simply working in doing something the Shadow Men had not wanted to do. But, this theory would also have its flaws, because taking into account the way in which Buffy spoke referring to the Scythe, when she held it, her and Faith, they sensed its power -- it was mystical, that's clear, but did it serve only as a "key", or did it really have its own power?

Another speculation is that the Guardians power was indeed purified and that it had the ability to 'cleanse' the 'tainted' power from the Shadow Men that only allowed one Slayer at a time to be active (Although, I believe it's been referenced to, that they did have the ability to make more than one woman a Slayer, but they simply chose not to because that way it'd be easier to control the Slayer), we'd still find ourselves in the same predicament as the previous theory -- I believe the Slayer's power consisted of specifically the Shadow demon's power. If that power was cleansed, then what would be left? When it all comes down to it, the Slayer needs the harshness, and the only way for her to deal with that would be with the full package, and that includes the strength that comes with the demon's power, being the primordial part of the Slayer's power.

That's why I thought RockyTheFlash's theory made sense. If the Guardians had indeed 'stolen' some of the power from the Shadow Men, supposedly some of the power that consisted of the heart of the demon, the powers would have a link, thus making it logical that the power that Willow used from the Scythe to trigger all Slayers was the same power, or at least had the same roots. But then, it'd also take us to square one of my original post, and my asking if the power that the Guardians used was "good" and different from the Shadow Men's.

Another fan once asked me if since the origin of the Slayer as seen in Get It Done was a metaphor for rape, did this take away from the feminist idea of the Slayer since the power comes from being (essentially) raped.

I believe already from the point where Buffy states she unwillingly had to fight and protect the world and knowing that the Slayer's power was rooted in darkness already sort of took away a bit of the feminist side of 'girl power'. I don't know if anyone has read "Tales of the Slayers", but pretty much all the young Slayers were simply treated as weapons, or as an 'instrument' as stated by Quentin, when they had been called till their death. I believe the fact Buffy wasn't a conformist, didn't follow the Slayer's rules of solitude, and even mocked the First Slayer's and Kendra's tactics was enough to distinguish herself from all those other Slayers and change the path of the Slayer and how that power was viewed.

Buffy was appalled when she discovered that that was how the First Slayer had been made; she finally knew the true origin's of her power... but even knowing that that power specifically resided inside, that wasn't enough for her to give up. Even knowing that the Slayer's power essentially came from a young girl being 'raped' by a power she didn't want and then forced to kill for others, and that that kept on going on for centuries each time a girl was chosen without their wanting, I believe just the mere fact that Buffy still saw her power as her being able to do good no matter what her power consisted of, that she took down the sexist look that her power and the line had upon them and that she was still able to use that power that was given to her against her will to her priviledge, was enough for me to, yes, actually view the whole Slayer arc as women power indeed.

Knowing that Buffy was given something dark and turned it into an art of women empowerment, and saw that all the other girls had the choice to not fight alone when the time came after she died, but actually gave them the opportunity to make a choice, something that she nor any of the other Slayers had ever been given before, is in fact a beautiful feminist metaphor -- or, in this case, was rather literal.

It is compelling, however, how the show's root in set on women power yet that power itself comes from a dark place. It gives a whole new level of themathic richness and maturity to the show

We must also remember that the Shadow Men did have the ability back then to have made more than one official Slayer at a time, as mentioned by Buffy in Chosen during her speech, but chose not to, as it'd be slightly more difficult for them to control more than one girl. So their solution to help with the incoming battle was to share with Buffy the rest of the power that they hadn't forced back then into Sineya. Whereas the Guardian, as I mentioned before, when talking to Buffy probably realized her competence and saw it differently, that she did have the ability to win the final fight because she probably saw far ahead and that Buffy could share her power with all the potentials by using the weapon she had forged so long ago.

That's why I had also wondered whether we were to believe that when the First Slayer appeared to Buffy in her dream in Get it Done, if when she said "It's not enough" she meant that as a way to convince Buffy to accept the power that the Shadow Men were willing to give to her, or if she meant that finally had come the time where only one girl alone to protect the world wasn't enough, and that Buffy should share their power.

But I also don't believe Buffy would've been strong enough to beat the Turok-Han army if she had accepted that power. Nowhere near that strong. I believe that her power would've been similar if back in Seeing Red, she had gotten Warren's orbs. I think she'd be as strong as that. Perhaps strong enough to have killed Caleb without the need for her Scythe and to kill a few of the über-vamps, but not the army.

One more thing, everyone remember's back then when Buffy first went up against Caleb in Dirty Girls, the way he almost knocked her unconscious just by laying one punch on her, and later on he did succeed on knocking her unconscious, in Empty Places, when Buffy encounters him in the High School? Well, it got me thinking: Perhaps the Scythe did have its power of its own -- when Buffy faces Caleb, in End of Days, not to mention after he had just merged with The First, she did seem capable of taking way more of his punches than she previously had. That much beating she got in that fight alone a while before if she hadn't gotten the Scythe would've probably left her pretty much like when she faced her first Turok-Han, in Bring on the Night. So, obviously, if Caleb had been angry at The First when it permitted Buffy to retrieve the Scythe from its place in solid rock, in End of Days, him being visibly shocked and a bit worried, not to mention a vibe of scared, then that's gotta say something... Now if that was due to his knowing of the possibility that Buffy would've done the Slayer spell we just can't exactly assume that, as Buffy herself didn't even have that idea till The First appeared to her in Chosen to mock her and that's how the realisation hit her that they'd win. So we're to assume that Caleb was probably scared because he knew a Slayer holding that weapon alone was one hell of a strong Slayer, capable of beating him. So, yes, it's probable that just by Buffy holding it, she was stronger. So the Scythe probably did have its power of its own.

[Rebecca]

I'm of the mind that the Scythe was more of a tap into the slayer power, and therefore capable of all power of the Slayers.

Really interesting read. *karma*

[gumgnome]

I hadn't really given much thought to the idea of the power from the Scythe and the power from the Shadow Men being different before, but the way you argue your case is compelling.
It is certainly true that when the Shadow Men perform their spell, the magic seems dark and evil, while when Willow casts her spell it is obviously light. I would say I fall on the side of the idea that the Scythe is really a key to unlocking the Slayer's power, rather than containing power of it's own. Willow certainly seems to use the Scythe as a way of channelling the magic she needs. However, this definitely raises a lot of questions about the Scythe's manufacture at the hands of the Guardians.
Unfortunately, I suspect that there really isn't much back-story to the Guardians, even in the minds of their creators. They pop in and out of the 'Verse so quickly, we barely get to hear anything about them, and were almost certainly invented simply as a plot device for the Scythe.

[suemey]

what i believe is rather simplistic... the power of the SM and the power of the guardians might share the same source but the view and use of that power differs from each other by the way they perceive the slayer per se.

The shadow men, as their name implies are misogynist people that were using a girl in a maquiavelic way hence the darkness.

But the guardians saw the slayer as an ally someone they can trust and their intents were pure in a sense that there was not devilish media or misogynic point of view.

[Watcher J]

Ok, I'm going to walk a similar line to that of suemey...

In my experience from studying texts on magics, psychic power, etc it is usually clearly stated that power in and of itself is incapable of being good or evil. I know this sounds irrelevant to this topic, but stick with me here. It could be very possible that the power of the scythe and the power presented by the shadow men is very similar, if not the same basic principle. However, the uses...and potential uses of the powers are completely different. The shadow men pushed the power upon the poor first slayer, forcing her to take on the responsibility, chaining her to her destiny. There was nothing consentual about it at all....therefore by karmic law, placing the process they used in the category of dark magic.

Now think of Buffy's speech in "Chosen" when she is about to unravel her plan to give every potential the power:
"This is about choices. I believe we can beat this evil. Not when it comes. Not when its army is ready. Now. Tomorrow morning, I'm opening the seal. I'm going down into the Hellmouth and I am finishing this once and for all. Right now, you're asking yourself what makes this different. What makes us anything more than a bunch of girls being picked off one by one? It's true. None of you have the power that Faith and I do. So here's the part where you make a choice."
There is no forcing to this plan. It is simply a choice, an opportunity. Buffy plans to enter the Hellmouth and fight regardless of what the girls choose to do. She is providing them with a weapon. What they do with it is their choice. She is not forcing this power onto someone for a protector. She isn't forcing someone else into a position so she doesn't have to fight the evil herself. Her plan is seeded with good, unselfish intention. By karmic law, this would be consider white or good, hence Willow's white aura and hair when she casts the spell. They are all in it together. They all want to save the world, not simply protect themselves and I really think that is the key to the differences between the two.

This can also be seen in the method the Guardians provide Buffy with the scythe, as a tool she can either use or throw away rather than forcing it down her throat as the shadow men attempt to. This idea is furthered by the fact that when Buffy or Faith hold the scythe they feel a feeling of ownership toward it...the power it possesses is in fact theirs. When Buffy possesses the scythe she is able to defeat both Caleb and the Ubervamp with a sense of ease. It is as though the scythe gives her the same power as the dark cloud would have but with the ability to walk away from it when it is all said and done. Look at Buffy's ability to take out four or five of the ubers at once while in the hellmouth with the use of the scythe. It just seems to me that it could all be an overarching metaphor to the idea that magic and power are not good or bad inherently, it is their application.

Again, this is all merely opinion.

I hope this makes into a sense lol...I feel long winded and scattered in my argument.

[gumgnome]

Aug 20, 2009 15:44:17 GMT -5 Watcher J said:

Ok, I'm going to walk a similar line to that of suemey...

In my experience from studying texts on magics, psychic power, etc it is usually clearly stated that power in and of itself is incapable of being good or evil. I know this sounds irrelevant to this topic, but stick with me here. It could be very possible that the power of the scythe and the power presented by the shadow men is very similar, if not the same basic principle. However, the uses...and potential uses of the powers are completely different. The shadow men pushed the power upon the poor first slayer, forcing her to take on the responsibility, chaining her to her destiny. There was nothing consentual about it at all....therefore by karmic law, placing the process they used in the category of dark magic.

Now think of Buffy's speech in "Chosen" when she is about to unravel her plan to give every potential the power:
"This is about choices. I believe we can beat this evil. Not when it comes. Not when its army is ready. Now. Tomorrow morning, I'm opening the seal. I'm going down into the Hellmouth and I am finishing this once and for all. Right now, you're asking yourself what makes this different. What makes us anything more than a bunch of girls being picked off one by one? It's true. None of you have the power that Faith and I do. So here's the part where you make a choice."
There is no forcing to this plan. It is simply a choice, an opportunity. Buffy plans to enter the Hellmouth and fight regardless of what the girls choose to do. She is providing them with a weapon. What they do with it is their choice. She is not forcing this power onto someone for a protector. She isn't forcing someone else into a position so she doesn't have to fight the evil herself. Her plan is seeded with good, unselfish intention. By karmic law, this would be consider white or good, hence Willow's white aura and hair when she casts the spell. They are all in it together. They all want to save the world, not simply protect themselves and I really think that is the key to the differences between the two.

This can also be seen in the method the Guardians provide Buffy with the scythe, as a tool she can either use or throw away rather than forcing it down her throat as the shadow men attempt to. This idea is furthered by the fact that when Buffy or Faith hold the scythe they feel a feeling of ownership toward it...the power it possesses is in fact theirs. When Buffy possesses the scythe she is able to defeat both Caleb and the Ubervamp with a sense of ease. It is as though the scythe gives her the same power as the dark cloud would have but with the ability to walk away from it when it is all said and done. Look at Buffy's ability to take out four or five of the ubers at once while in the hellmouth with the use of the scythe. It just seems to me that it could all be an overarching metaphor to the idea that magic and power are not good or bad inherently, it is their application.

Again, this is all merely opinion.

I hope this makes into a sense lol...I feel long winded and scattered in my argument.

But here I have to disagree with you. Buffy doesn't give a choice to those she gives Slayer powers to. In fact, it is by far one of the most irresponsible actions she ever performs. The girls that she makes into slayers would almost certainly have just had normal lives, and instead she thrusts them into a world of monsters and fighting. They can't be left unsupervised because they could be dangerous (as in Angel S5) so she is essentially ripping them all away from everything they know.

The method she uses to force Slayerhood onto all of them is different than the Shadow Men, but the effect is the same. Therefore, I can't agree with the "processes" argument.

[Reika]

Aug 21, 2009 4:26:35 GMT -5 gumgnome said:

Buffy doesn't give a choice to those she gives Slayer powers to. In fact, it is by far one of the most irresponsible actions she ever performs.

I do not agree with that. Either Buffy making the decision she had made or not, the First and its allies wouldn't have stopped murdering those potentials until the very last one was gone. Even though Buffy was the Slayer and was trying her hardest to stop it and put an end to its plan to end the line, basically, it wasn't up to her, the First was something much biggger than she was and there probably was no defeating it and its army alone, just with the help of her friends, and it wouldn't have stopped until it succeeded. You might argue that Buffy being the Slayer essentially makes her responsible for those potentials, thus it was her responsibility to take care of them from the beginning, to stop their deaths, to put an end to that, but the truth of the matter is, Buffy was responsible for their lives as much as the life of any other normal person who lived when it comes to each, individual circumstance.

Buffy did give all those potentials there the opportunity to make a choice: it was either kill or be killed. And, as far as we know, none of them backpedaled, because they were tired of being picked on, tired of being scared, tired of hiding behind someone who had the power while they didn't and ultimately waiting for their deaths.

Buffy's decision to share that power wasn't similar to the Shadow Men's, because when Buffy had been chosen, her life wasn't at risk, she wasn't faced with the decision of choosing to either take that power or be killed. Whereas the potentials there present in Buffy's living room were in that predicament. If now, after that battle, they choose to not engage in the duty of a Slayer, they can effort to what that choice, because they're no longer alone, whereas Buffy never had the luxury of that. When they were present there in Buffy's living room, the choice they didn't have was to run, to turn their back on the upcoming battle, because even though Buffy was still the Slayer and it was still her responsibility to try to put and end to that, same responsibility would fall on the potentials' shoulders: it was their battle as well. Yes, it's not fair that they were given that potential, same as it wasn't fair when Buffy was chosen or when any of the Slayers were chosen before her, or when Sineya had been given that power. But it isn't about being fair or not, it was about making a decision, and the only decision Buffy saw that would actually succeed in winning them that battle was in sharing her power --a power that she herself had never chosen to have to begin with, but still used it to do good nonetheless-- with all those potentials, in hopes of saving their lives, her life and the life of her friends, and every single human being out there that probaby woudl've died if they hadn't succeeded in winning that battle.

You could say for potentials not present there that they hadn't been given the opportunity to make a choice, but that's the thing: I believe Joss purposefully showed most of the potentials girls who wanted that power, being given that power. The baseball girl? She desperately wanted to win that game. The girl being beaten, she also wanted to put an end to that. Then, now in the comics, Soledad received her powers when she actually needed it. Perhaps it's stretching it a bit, but unlike the Shadow Men's decision to force that power into the First Slayer, we've only seen girls who wanted this power, the power to be strong, to make a difference, to stand up to themselves, receive the power since Willow's spell, so that's probably how the triggering works now. That's why Soledad had only been chosen after 18 months of Willow's spell, because she had never so desperately wanted to stick up to herself until that moment. They might complain afterwards, but when they were triggered, they wanted that. As Buffy herself said in her speech during Chosen, "From now on, every girl in the world who might be a Slayer, will be a Slayer. Every girl who could have the power, will have the power; can stand up, will stand up. Slayers, every one of us. Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?" The truth of the matter is, Buffy's decision could've been wrong, but she was still the only person present there with the option to make that decision. A young woman who has been fighting evil since the age of 15, who had gone through so much heartache and suffering due to her duty as a Slayer, who sacrificed her life on several occasions and even literally gave up her life twice, who kept on standing up after constantly being knocked down, and not once did she truly give up, was the only person present there with the choice to make that decison. Having come from anyone else, I would've agreed that it was one of the most selfish and irresponsible decisions that a person could've made, but since it came from Buffy, who, le'ts face it, wasn't seeing that as an opportunity to put down her own sword, who didn't make that decision because she thought up a way to finally be free of her responsability as a Slayer, quite the contrary, she made that decision because she wanted to save those girls' lives, so I don't actually see it that way... although, I do agree the action in itself is still somewhat deserving of skepticism and judgment when it concerns the degree of irresponsibility when it came to the decision to hand in power to oblivious, young girls.

But, at the same time, Buffy didn't neglectfully thrust all those girls a life of responsibility that ultimately came with a short life, she shared her responsibility, shared their responsibility, even though now with hundreds of active Slayers, any of these new Slayers can choose what they want with their lives. Truth is, even if Buffy hadn't made that decision and activated all those potentials, those same potentials never would've led a normal life just for the fact that they had potential in them to become a Slayer. It was just as fast as the life of the current Slayer ending, that any of those potentials would've been stripped of their normal life in a heartbeat. Buffy actually gave them something she and none of the previous Slayers had been given before, that was the opportunity to not fight alone. Once the current Slayer dies, a new Slayer is chosen, and this Slayer had to fight alone. Now that isn't needed nor necessary anymore. And, perhaps I might be looking at it too much from my own point of view, but Buffy actually deserved that, to not have to shoulder any longer that burden alone.

While I do agree that this subject isn't just black and white and Buffy's decision does hold many moral ambiguities, conflicting thoughts and contradictions concerning what she had done; the perplexing situation Buffy was faced to begin with was a complex one, and it does bring ambivalent thoughts concerning her decision when faced with our own moral dilemmas, and it deserves to be looked upon beyond being chalked up to one of the most irresponsible decisions Buffy could've made it, as I believe it deserves a more in-deth analysis and view to it than that.

Btw, I had never seen it from that perspective before, suemey & J Ryan, and I gotta say, I really agree with some of the points you two made. It does make sense that, in the end, what truly matters are the results, not the sources in which the result comes from.

[Watcher J]

Thanks Reika! You have some pretty interesting points yourself! I have to agree with you. You stated a point I was thinking when reading the posts about Buffy's irresponsibility. Her actions aren't selfish. She didn't activate the potentials to hide behinds them, she did it to fight alongside them and protect them. She acted as a leader, not a coward and that makes a huge difference. I see her actions as the exact opposite of what the Shadow Men did.

[gumgnome]

I think that you make a fair point about Buffy sharing a power that previously led to one isolated figure standing alone. However, when you state that Buffy is essentially the only person who can make the decision because she is "a young woman who has been fighting evil since the age of 15, who had gone through so much heartache and suffering due to her duty as a Slayer", don't you think that's something she shouldn't force on others?

I think that you're right about the potentials that are actually with her at the end of Chosen. They choose to be Slayers because they have been thrust into a life or death situation. However, by the time we get to season 8, Buffy is commanding more than a thousand slayers. Do you honestly think that if each and every one of them were asked where they'd rather be at that time - in a castle in Scotland, fighting for their lives, or back in their homes with their families - that none of them would rather none of this had ever happened. That's why I think Buffy's actions are irresponsible. She has single-handedly made the decision to drastically change thousands of people's lives without their consent, fully knowing how dangerous and unpleasant their fate might be.

[Watcher J]

As much as I would like to defend Buffy, you have a point. However, it was really the only option at the time she made the decision. I don't really see any other way for her to have defeated the First Evil and saved the world. I think you have to get Buffy a little credit for the position she was placed in. She was presented with the option of Apocalypse or unlocking the slayers....which would you choose? All of the potentials that had came to Sunnydale were accepting of the responsibility. You can't account for everyone in the world, but them you can...and Buffy took responsibility for them. She trained them and led them to the frontline...While it may be categorized as a rash decision....it was really the world's only option.

[Watcher J]

I agree completely. Buffy had no way of knowing the long term consequences of her actions and staring an apocalypse in the face, choices are limited.