Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
One Good Scare
Tonight I'm Dancing.[Mo0:16]
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Post by Nicholas on Feb 9, 2009 13:38:43 GMT -5
Willows feelings will most likely come rushing back when she sees Oz again. I really wonder if Willow & Oz will share a kiss or possibly something more. With Buffys little lesbian tryst it wouldn't surprise me if the writers wanted to emphasize this 'liquid sexuality' idea even more with willow going back to Oz. The only problem is Kennedy, but as evident with the saga vasuki story willow hasn't been the most honest companion. Come to think of it, Willows never really been an honest companion. She kissed xander behind oz's back, wiped taras memory & is apparentally getting sexual kicks with saga vasuki. Who knows, but I'm sure the 'retreat' title refers to the slayers retreating as well as willows feelings towards oz. My thoughts exactly. Willow hasn't exactly been honest.
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Malsad
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by Malsad on Feb 9, 2009 14:13:24 GMT -5
indeed
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Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
One Good Scare
Tonight I'm Dancing.[Mo0:16]
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Post by Nicholas on Feb 9, 2009 16:08:05 GMT -5
I do forsee something happening between her and Oz more than just tension.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 9, 2009 16:19:41 GMT -5
Willow has become a real heroine to the lesbian fandom community. If they're planning to put her back together with Oz for more than just a kiss or a moment of temptation, they'd better be ready for the fallout.
Just sayin'.
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Post by CowboyGuy on Feb 9, 2009 17:59:50 GMT -5
Willow has become a real heroine to the lesbian fandom community. If they're planning to put her back together with Oz for more than just a kiss or a moment of temptation, they'd better be ready for the fallout. Just sayin'. I agree completely! *gives reputation points While it might be cool to explore the "sexual fluidity" theme...I don't think it is worth the fallout that would happen with the lesbian fanbase. I'm not saying that Joss should play it safe and not mess with Willow's sexual identity, as I don't really care one way or another (her sexual preference was never a plot point to me). But I know that there are many Willow fans, who identify with her because of that reason. To take that away might hurt a large number of fans worldwide. Is it worth it just for the sake of stirring up things with Oz, her former lover from more than 4 years ago?
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Malsad
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by Malsad on Feb 9, 2009 18:41:46 GMT -5
in a word YES
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Post by birdandbear on Feb 9, 2009 19:12:27 GMT -5
On the other hand, is it worth curbing the story he wants to tell, just so as to not tick off one demographic? Joss claims to tell the story we need to hear, not the one we want to hear, and IMO, he's proven it. Maybe what the lesbian feminist fanbase needs is to own their own power, and let go of the mascot. Willow said long ago that she felt like part of her would always be waiting for Oz....maybe the wait is over. I don't think that's what will, or even should happen - but I trust Joss to tell the story unfettered by the bonds of political correctness.
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Mathieu
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Mathieu on Feb 9, 2009 19:52:17 GMT -5
What Willow has with Oz is way more romantic than what she has with Kennedy. Kennedy is someone she feels comfortable with but, as many put it already, a part of her will always be with Oz. Remember the end of New Moon Rising people!! I believe it is kind of sad if there are directions the story cannot take just because of a fanbase that is too "powerful" and that could cause too much damage if they got upset with a storyline. I know that gays and lesbians are a big part of the fandom but... I don't know, come on! Be open to all possibilities!
I know that Joss won't have Willow get back together with Oz, I just don't see it. And I'm not saying it would be the best idea either. I don't discard the possibility of her cheating with him though. Would even that get the gay fanbase to fly off the handle?? It's not like we don't already have Satsu and Kennedy on the side with potential for a new love story...
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 9, 2009 21:30:40 GMT -5
This is only a story for entertainment, not a vital historical document or a piece of wisdom imparted from on high. I don't think the world will end if Joss takes into consideration the feelings of what has been an incredibly loyal and vibrant part of his fandom. He might love to hurt his fictitious characters, but I think he sees the difference between that and hurting real live people with real feelings. At least I hope so. If the story becomes more important than the people listening to it, there's a problem with priorities somewhere.
Hurting people for the sake of *bad* storytelling would be even worse.
I'm sure Willow's words about waiting for Oz will be in play, but "waiting for him" doesn't have to mean "waiting to have sex with him." There are other options for meaningful character interaction besides orgasms.
There is nothing whatsoever in Willow's recent history that would make such a development true to or even plausible for her. She's been perfectly happy in her orientation -- and Oz is a great guy, but he's not so awesome that Willow's entire lifestyle and character development depends on whether he is in her line of sight or not at any given time. She's not that person anymore.
And JW has come right out and said he's sensitive to the bad old cliches that all lesbian characters have to die, betray their lovers, or see the error of their ways and turn straight. The fact that Satsu and Kennedy were able to interact perfectly well without falling in bed together showed me that Joss and his writers still have a more sophisticated sense of story than recycling predictable cliches (aside from Joss's own particular ones, of course).
Having Willow go back with Oz would not be true to her character at this point, and would be bad, cliched and inconsistent storytelling, IMO.
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Post by birdandbear on Feb 9, 2009 22:42:25 GMT -5
I don't actually want Willow and Oz to get together again. I'd be far more interested in seeing them interact as friends after such a long time. I think you're exactly right, in that "waiting for him" can mean something much deeper than sex - her little old lady reference brings to mind the kind of lifelong bond that's more intimate than that of simple lovers. I just sometimes have an urge to play devil's advocate.
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rufio
Novice Witch
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Post by rufio on Feb 9, 2009 23:12:18 GMT -5
i'm gay & I wouldn't be offended if willow & oz got back together in some way- not regarding her relationship with kennedy but w/her sexuality in general. I think the world would be more interesting if everyone was open to relationships with men AND women anyway!
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Mathieu
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Mathieu on Feb 9, 2009 23:58:41 GMT -5
Rufio: I agree a hundred per cent with what you said.
Birdandbear: I love to play devil's advocate too ;-). My favorite hobby in the world.
AndrewCrossett: I agree that Oz and Willow sleeping together would not be the best idea but I'm pretty sure that she still has feelings for him that go beyond just friendship. But most importantly, are you serious when you say that it would be "mean" of Joss Whedon if he hurt the gay fanbase on purpose by breaking up Willow and Kennedy? Would people be THAT hurt? I mean, you're saying that it's not a big deal to hurt the character's feelings because they're ficticious but it would be wrong to hurt real people's feelings... I am a HUGE fan of the Buffyverse but I would not feel "personnally hurt" if something happened to one of the characters. It's just nuts to cross the line like that. You have to see the difference between the real people you care about and a bunch of characters on paper. Or else you are losing your sanity. I think I even want those characters to go through harsh times because it's more fun to see them suffer, it makes for more drama. Break them up, get them back together, whatever. You can wish anything, they're NOT real.
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Post by wenxina on Feb 10, 2009 0:03:47 GMT -5
Really? Coz I'm still shaking at my head at the outrage that poured forth when Willow started snuggling Kennedy. Outrage, screams of betrayal, screeches of infidelity and inconstancy of heart. You want to tell those fans they are nuts? Please watch yours... some of them are prone to kicking and ripping human bits off.
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Mathieu
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Mathieu on Feb 10, 2009 0:13:08 GMT -5
Really? Coz I'm still shaking at my head at the outrage that poured forth when Willow started snuggling Kennedy. Outrage, screams of betrayal, screeches of infidelity and inconstancy of heart. You want to tell those fans they are nuts? Please watch yours... some of them are prone to kicking and ripping human bits off. Ahaha, I'm picturing scary things in my head now. I'm not going to sleep well.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 10, 2009 0:20:07 GMT -5
I think I'll bow out of this conversation now.
What happens, happens.
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Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
One Good Scare
Tonight I'm Dancing.[Mo0:16]
Posts: 656
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Post by Nicholas on Feb 10, 2009 13:05:51 GMT -5
On the other hand, is it worth curbing the story he wants to tell, just so as to not tick off one demographic? Joss claims to tell the story we need to hear, not the one we want to hear, and IMO, he's proven it. Maybe what the lesbian feminist fanbase needs is to own their own power, and let go of the mascot. Willow said long ago that she felt like part of her would always be waiting for Oz....maybe the wait is over. I don't think that's what will, or even should happen - but I trust Joss to tell the story unfettered by the bonds of political correctness. I 110% agree with this statement. I really dont think that Joss is going to think about the way that the story goes in order to please the fans. Otherwise, we wouldnt have a Mecha-Dawn and Spike and Xander would be sleeping with eachother. This is Joss's story and we are just along for the ride. He knows how to tell a damn good story but the fans are not going to be catered to for everything, especially the lesbian fanbase. If Willow does manage to go back with Oz for whatever reason, that doesnt erase all the history that she has with women. She isnt going to stop loving Tara and she cant erase the feelings that she had for Kennedy. Lord knows, she cant erase the sexual mystical thing thats going on with her and Saga Vasuki. And if you look back, you can clearly tell Joss doesnt cater to the fans. Buffy slept with Satsu. People were OUTRAGED! I remember reading it and then flipping on the news to see that panel on the television! People were posting with suchs topics as "Today, I lost a role model". So believe me, anythings possible.
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Post by Essentially Yours on Feb 10, 2009 20:00:15 GMT -5
I think that if Joss wanted or foresaw that Willow could have a relationship with a guy after Tara, he wouldn't have made great strives for Willow's character to announce, "Hey, gay now." Willow reinforces that she's gay on the show. I don't deny her love for Oz or her bisexuality, but I the fact that Joss/the writers chose to make Willow's character GAY instead of bi, it would kind of tick me off if Willow got back together with Oz. I know Joss finds sexuality fluid, but if labels have already been placed on the characters BY the characters, it would be out-of-character for them to say otherwise. (Was that confusing?)
In any case, I see Kennedy getting severely jealous over Oz. Hopefully, Kennedy won't tick him off and make him go wolfy on her.
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Post by Essentially Yours on Feb 10, 2009 20:10:04 GMT -5
Rufio: I agree a hundred per cent with what you said. Birdandbear: I love to play devil's advocate too ;-). My favorite hobby in the world. AndrewCrossett: I agree that Oz and Willow sleeping together would not be the best idea but I'm pretty sure that she still has feelings for him that go beyond just friendship. But most importantly, are you serious when you say that it would be "mean" of Joss Whedon if he hurt the gay fanbase on purpose by breaking up Willow and Kennedy? Would people be THAT hurt? I mean, you're saying that it's not a big deal to hurt the character's feelings because they're ficticious but it would be wrong to hurt real people's feelings... I am a HUGE fan of the Buffyverse but I would not feel "personnally hurt" if something happened to one of the characters. It's just nuts to cross the line like that. You have to see the difference between the real people you care about and a bunch of characters on paper. Or else you are losing your sanity. I think I even want those characters to go through harsh times because it's more fun to see them suffer, it makes for more drama. Break them up, get them back together, whatever. You can wish anything, they're NOT real. Also, mathieu... I don't find it nuts that people CARE about fictional characters. Joss, himself, has stated that he cares about the characters that he's created. I was deeply upset when Tara died. I didn't go crazy and write hate mail or blow anyone out, but it did affect me personally. I guess if that affects my sanity, so be it.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 10, 2009 20:44:41 GMT -5
I agree with both those posts, EY.
For fans who may have been very young, almost 10 years ago when Willow began her relationship with Tara, or who live in countries where homosexuality is not as controversial as it is in the U.S., it's hard to understand what a *big deal* this was to lesbian fans, who had never before had one of their own to identify with and admire in a major TV role. It meant a lot to them (and to people like me...I'm neither female nor gay, but I have several lesbian friends and I loved seeing how happy Willow (and Tara) made them.)
I know for a fact that Joss respects that, and values those fans, and will not lightly take this away from them. Especially when it would directly contradict Willow's character evolution over the past several years. But, we won't know what direction he's going to take the story until it comes out.
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Smashed
Junior Vampire Slayer
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Post by Smashed on Feb 10, 2009 20:48:12 GMT -5
I wouldn't mind Willow sleeping with Oz. Who knows, her and Kennedy could break up and she might be looking for a rebound. Haha, IDK. I don't really care for Kennedy though.
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