Mathieu
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Mathieu on Feb 10, 2009 22:16:57 GMT -5
I think that if Joss wanted or foresaw that Willow could have a relationship with a guy after Tara, he wouldn't have made great strives for Willow's character to announce, "Hey, gay now." Willow reinforces that she's gay on the show. I don't deny her love for Oz or her bisexuality, but I the fact that Joss/the writers chose to make Willow's character GAY instead of bi, it would kind of tick me off if Willow got back together with Oz. I know Joss finds sexuality fluid, but if labels have already been placed on the characters BY the characters, it would be out-of-character for them to say otherwise. (Was that confusing?) In any case, I see Kennedy getting severely jealous over Oz. Hopefully, Kennedy won't tick him off and make him go wolfy on her. I strongly disagree with your label theory. People don't label themselves. I had labeled myself for a long long time as straight until I fell in love with a guy (who didn't love me back but that's another story). Now I didn't place a new label on myself saying gay. No. I know I'm just open to any possibilities. i don't understand why you guys try to make things simpler than they actually are. Life is not a walk in the park. You never know what's around the corner. So, so much for Willow having the gay label placed on her for life. |
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sarahi
Potential Slayer
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Post by sarahi on Feb 10, 2009 22:17:20 GMT -5
This arc is being written by Jane Espenson, so I for one will definitely be reading it. She's one of my favorite Buffy writers.
I don't know about Willow sleeping with Oz, but since I heard that Oz didn't leave in New Moon Rising because Willow is gay, I've been a little confused. I can see Twilight trying to use Oz, but I don't see how he could recruit Oz into a Buffy-hating organization. The last time we saw Oz, he was dabbling in something to try to control the wolf, and since that went horribly wrong, I can see Twilight trying to pull something.
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Post by Essentially Yours on Feb 10, 2009 22:39:26 GMT -5
Exactly, AndrewCrossett. You totally get me.  I think that if Joss wanted or foresaw that Willow could have a relationship with a guy after Tara, he wouldn't have made great strives for Willow's character to announce, "Hey, gay now." Willow reinforces that she's gay on the show. I don't deny her love for Oz or her bisexuality, but I the fact that Joss/the writers chose to make Willow's character GAY instead of bi, it would kind of tick me off if Willow got back together with Oz. I know Joss finds sexuality fluid, but if labels have already been placed on the characters BY the characters, it would be out-of-character for them to say otherwise. (Was that confusing?) In any case, I see Kennedy getting severely jealous over Oz. Hopefully, Kennedy won't tick him off and make him go wolfy on her. I strongly disagree with your label theory. People don't label themselves. I had labeled myself for a long long time as straight until I fell in love with a guy (who didn't love me back but that's another story). Now I didn't place a new label on myself saying gay. No. I know I'm just open to any possibilities. i don't understand why you guys try to make things simpler than they actually are. Life is not a walk in the park. You never know what's around the corner. So, so much for Willow having the gay label placed on her for life. Willow announcing to all of her friends that she's gay instead of saying, "I found someone new, gender doesn't matter," is what I consider labeling one's self. She identifies herself as gay, as told by the writers and Joss. The only point that I was stressing is that on the show they had the option to make Willow announce herself as bisexual, but they didn't. Personally, I find Willow's character bisexual, so if I was personally trying to label her, I'd say bi, but that isn't what she identifies herself as. |
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 10, 2009 22:43:45 GMT -5
I strongly disagree with your label theory. People don't label themselves. I had labeled myself for a long long time as straight until I fell in love with a guy (who didn't love me back but that's another story). Now I didn't place a new label on myself saying gay. No. I know I'm just open to any possibilities. i don't understand why you guys try to make things simpler than they actually are. Life is not a walk in the park. You never know what's around the corner. So, so much for Willow having the gay label placed on her for life. No offense, but the fact that you don't label yourself doesn't mean most people don't. In fact, most people will have a very ready answer if you ask them whether they're straight, bi or gay. Willow has, by her own words, labelled herself as gay. It's right there on the screen and the printed page. "I don't truck with the stubbly crowd." - Willow, "The Long Way Home" |
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Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
One Good Scare
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Post by Nicholas on Feb 10, 2009 22:46:33 GMT -5
Buffy also labeled herself as straight, yet slept with a girl.
Willow for 3 years labeled herself as straight, but turned out being gay.
Larry considered himself straight, until Xander convinced him to admit it to themselves.
So why couldnt Willow pull a "Buffy/Satsu" with Oz?
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Post by Essentially Yours on Feb 10, 2009 22:51:42 GMT -5
I'm not saying that Willow couldn't end up with Oz, but from the reasons that I listed earlier, I feel it would be a step backwards in her character progression. I guess it's just a matter of opinion. I trust Joss and will accept whatever he decides to do.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 10, 2009 23:09:11 GMT -5
Buffy also labeled herself as straight, yet slept with a girl. Willow for 3 years labeled herself as straight, but turned out being gay. Larry considered himself straight, until Xander convinced him to admit it to themselves. So why couldnt Willow pull a "Buffy/Satsu" with Oz? After pointing out to both Buffy and Satsu what a questionable idea that was, and seeing for herself how brilliantly that turned out for them? 'Cause she's not dumb. Willow is very obviously comfortable in her sexuality and lifestyle, she isn't dealing with the loneliness and isolation issues Buffy is, she's in a loving relationship (unlike Buffy), and she's strong enough now not to have to redefine herself in reaction to the presence or absence of another person. And because I don't think Joss really wants to waste the whole season re-hashing the same plot points over and over. Scott Allie has already said there will be a "triangle" of sorts with Willow, Kennedy and Oz... obviously. It would be stupid if he just showed up, said "Hey, Willow, how's it going?" and went to talk football with Xander. There will be interaction, probably loving interaction, between Willow and Oz. But it won't be sexual. There's no reason for it, and a dozen reasons against. |
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Post by birdandbear on Feb 10, 2009 23:43:24 GMT -5
Okay, I have to take issue with the idea that having a relationship with another man would be a reversal of Willow's character development. That's like saying that nothing that happened in Hell A mattered because everything got "reset." Willow will always have that development, and the changes that accompany it. I can only see attraction to another man as yet more development for her character, another way for her view of herself to be challenged. After all pigeonholing anyone, yourself included, is a fools game and can lead to some pretty intense soulsearching when you find your assumptions about your own identity called into question. That said, I reiterate - I don't think Oz and Willow should get back together sexually, at least not in the long term. On the other hand, I have a feeling Willow and Kennedy aren't long for this world either, what with Saga Vasuki and the apparent chemistry between Kennedy and Satsu. I kinda think Buffy isn't the only one who's still baking. You guys are fun to debate with.  |
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 10, 2009 23:58:21 GMT -5
I agree about Willow and Kennedy, but I will be very disappointed if Kennedy and Satsu wind up together. So predictable, so cliched. I was quite happy when "Swell" avoided falling into the "all lesbians must sleep with each other" abyss.
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Post by Essentially Yours on Feb 11, 2009 0:02:04 GMT -5
Okay, I have to take issue with the idea that having a relationship with another man would be a reversal of Willow's character development. That's like saying that nothing that happened in Hell A mattered because everything got "reset." Willow will always have that development, and the changes that accompany it. I can only see attraction to another man as yet more development for her character, another way for her view of herself to be challenged. After all pigeonholing anyone, yourself included, is a fools game and can lead to some pretty intense soulsearching when you find your assumptions about yourself challenged. That said, I reiterate - I don't think Oz and Willow should get back together sexually, at least not in the long term. On the other hand, I have a feeling Willow and Kennedy aren't long for this world either, what with Saga Vasuki and the apparent chemistry between Kennedy and Satsu. I kinda think Buffy isn't the only one who's still baking. You guys are fun to debate with. You're fun to debate with too. When I said: I didn't mean that if Willow made a decision to date a man again for whatever reason, it reverses her character development. I was specifically referring to if Willow dated Oz again. She chose Tara over Oz, so if she went back to Oz, I personally see that as a step backwards. Especially, since Kennedy is still in the picture (so far). |
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Post by birdandbear on Feb 11, 2009 0:16:43 GMT -5
Oh. Well that's a whole 'nother argument, lol. Kennedy..... Meh, I've always been really lukewarm towards Kennedy, not because she was a betrayal of Tara (gasp!) I think I was just turned off by her pushiness. I don't care if she ends up with Willow, or Satsu, or goes off to Tibet and is never heard from again. Maybe she'll grow on me some more - I do like her better now than I did before S8. But I can see your point Andrew, about all lesbians sleeping with each other being cliched (but hot! ) It would be nice to see two people so predictable for each other wind up as purely platonic friends instead. |
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Post by Essentially Yours on Feb 11, 2009 0:25:39 GMT -5
I agree, birdandbear, about all your opinions on Kennedy. If she had more character development going on in "Swell", I'd be more inclined to like her. I find her character very pushy (I guess as she refers to it, "bratty") and annoyingly possessive of Willow. When Kennedy was talking with Satsu, she seemed lighter and more likable to me somehow.
EDIT:
I'm not saying that Satsu and Kennedy should get together, but I enjoyed reading more about their banter as friends than most of the panels with Willow and Kennedy.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 11, 2009 0:28:03 GMT -5
But I can see your point Andrew, about all lesbians sleeping with each other being cliched (but hot! ) It would be nice to see two people so predictable for each other wind up as purely platonic friends instead. Definitely! I think they were brilliant together, and I'd love to see more stories about them having adventures. I hope they both make it through this season alive. |
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Mathieu
Ensouled Vampire
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Posts: 1,069
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Post by Mathieu on Feb 11, 2009 0:34:52 GMT -5
Just so you know, I don't see Willow gettin back together with Oz and Satsu and Kennedy having a thing together. i just don't see it. We can at least agree on that ;-). Labels are another story...
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 11, 2009 0:38:42 GMT -5
Labels are always a problem in Joss's world, since he doesn't respect them.
It's all about what's true to the story and the characters.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Feb 11, 2009 0:57:25 GMT -5
I definitely wouldn't want Willow to get back with Oz, not only because it would feel like a regression for the character, but because I'm fast becoming a Willow/Kennedy shipper.
Some have criticised her pushiness, but that's exactly what works about Kennedy, and why she's such a good match for Willow. As we all know, Willow can get addicted to power, and she certainly exploited Tara's submissiveness. Throughout the majority of their relationship, Tara massaged Willow's ego by going on about how powerful and amazing she was. Willow, who was trying to outgrow her "mousy" past and gain power for herself, fed off that adoration. When Tara stopped worshipping her and started to speak for herself in S6, Willow got pissed off and erased her memory. So that relationship clearly wasn't as perfect as people like to think; there was an unhealthy inequality to it. Only near the end of S6, when Tara had attained her own identity and Willow had worked through her problems, did they become equals.
Willow/Kennedy has a different dynamic to it because Kennedy isn't submissive. Unlike Oz or Tara, she was aggressive in her relationship with Willow, and audiences were thrown because they hadn't seen that before. But because we know Willow's such a power addict, I think she needs someone like that. They're on more of an equal footing. Kennedy's definitely the right person for Willow at this point in her life, and so far we've seen them to be very happy with each other. The only problem seems to be Willow/Saga Vasuki, which is a mysterious element that I don't know enough about to comment on, but am sure will have dark consequences. I just hope it doesn't break them up.
So I'm firmly against any Kennedy/Satsu or Willow/Oz hook-ups. Although I believe it will be amusing to see the relationship between Oz and Kennedy, since I doubt either character will take to the other.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 11, 2009 1:27:04 GMT -5
I agree completely. I've become a Willow/Kennedy fan too.
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Post by eco on Feb 11, 2009 3:16:14 GMT -5
BTW. Buffyfest blog (who's at Comic Con) reported that, due to the new ToTV, there will be no new S8 issue in June - which means a one month delay for the Oz arc.  But June's my Birthday! Come on! |
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dane5by5
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
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Post by dane5by5 on Feb 11, 2009 7:07:32 GMT -5
Going by the dictionary definitions for 'retreat' it could apply to the story in several different ways, however it seems the military use of the term would be more applicable in the context of the story and the situation that the story is meant to be set it (things going from bad, to worse according to Joss Whedon/Scott Allie).
I think the title reveals Buffy's plan to withdraw from the spotlight, take the fight underground or back into the shadows, due to all the recent bad PR.
Regarding Willow "retreating" or returning to Oz, it is a valid possibility. With Buffy's relationship with Satsu, which did have precedent in terms of Buffy's past relationships (i.e. Spike) being a relationship of need (of a connection and physical intimacy to feel something more than depression and loneliness) and Joss Whedon's view of sexuality as being "fluid", it would not be shocking for Willow and Oz to have something between them when he returns. Although, Willow did choose Tara over Oz, who is to say she would not now choose Kennedy over Oz?
With the story of Willow's various relationships being quite provocative and contentious, this would continue the pattern. Joss has never shied away from telling the story that needs to be told, due to the perceived possible negative reactions of fans. The story should always come first, the audiences feelings should hold little or no weight in terms of story direction.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 11, 2009 9:24:35 GMT -5
With the story of Willow's various relationships being quite provocative and contentious, this would continue the pattern. Joss has never shied away from telling the story that needs to be told, due to the perceived possible negative reactions of fans. The story should always come first, the audiences feelings should hold little or no weight in terms of story direction. I strongly disagree with this "the audience doesn't matter" philosophy I keep hearing expressed. Good storytelling is a relationship between the teller and the listener, not an imposition. What you're describing is masturbation. If the audience doesn't enjoy the story, there's no point in telling it. As for Joss's notion of "fluid sexuality," I think too much is made of that. It may be a spectrum that can be moved along, but that doesn't mean characters should sprint from one end of it to the other with no rhyme or reason. This is supposed to be a plausible story, not a Penthouse Forum letter. The story reasons for Buffy being with Satsu are not valid in Willow's case. They are two very different characters whose lives are following different paths at the moment. |
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