Malsad
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Post by Malsad on Feb 11, 2009 9:30:02 GMT -5
actually the reasons are even more valid Oz would wait for willow because he truly loves her Willow didnt take Oz back because she loved Tara more than him, but Im not sure that she loves Kennedy
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 11, 2009 9:34:59 GMT -5
You know what?
This all comes down to a question of, do you personally want to see Willow get back with Oz or not?
We're all going to adopt and reject whatever viewpoints we need to to justify our preferred outcome.
I think Willow's love for Kennedy was conclusively established in "Anywhere But Here."
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Feb 11, 2009 10:39:45 GMT -5
I strongly disagree with this "the audience doesn't matter" philosophy I keep hearing expressed. Good storytelling is a relationship between the teller and the listener, not an imposition. What you're describing is masturbation. If the audience doesn't enjoy the story, there's no point in telling it. Sometimes a good writer knows what's best for the story when the audience doesn't. The fans were furious, for example, when Willow was written into a lesbian relationship and during season four, Tara was extremely unpopular. If they went with what the fans wanted, that story would never have happened. Two seasons later, the Willow/Tara relationship was sacred and Tara has one of the most rapid fanbases known to man. Give the fans what they need, not what they want, is Joss' mantra. That said, the "relationship between the teller and the listener" is a complicated thing. I remember reading an interesting essay about Cordelia ( www.jennycrusie.com/essays/cordeliachase.php ), and how season four's biggest failing was destroying her as a character without letting the audience in on the reason why she was being destroyed. By the time Jasmine was revealed, it was too late, the damage had been done and the viewers already felt betrayed over the treatment of their character. It wasn't that the story itself was bad, just that it was badly told. So I guess you just have to strike a healthy balance between letting the fans dictate the story and totally screwing them over. I think Willow's love for Kennedy was conclusively established in "Anywhere But Here." Agreed.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 11, 2009 10:58:46 GMT -5
One way the comic medium is different from TV is that there's a month-long wait between episodes instead of a week-long one. If you make a story decision that gets people up in arms, that has a lot more time to grow and fester than if you can just say "wait till next week and it'll be clearer where we're going with this."
I think if there were any chance of Willow going back to Oz, we would have seen her character tending in some way to such a decision. We haven't... it would be completely out of the blue. For her to do so, having been so comfortable and happy in her lifestyle for so long -- even when she wasn't in a relationship and could have started looking at guys again if she wanted to -- would be a very, very strange storytelling decision.
(Remember "Him" when Willow -- who is not in a relationship, and is under the influence of a love spell -- still feels the need to magically transform RJ into a woman before even considering having sex with him? That's a committed lesbian.)
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Nicholas
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Post by Nicholas on Feb 11, 2009 12:07:21 GMT -5
One way the comic medium is different from TV is that there's a month-long wait between episodes instead of a week-long one. If you make a story decision that gets people up in arms, that has a lot more time to grow and fester than if you can just say "wait till next week and it'll be clearer where we're going with this." I think if there were any chance of Willow going back to Oz, we would have seen her character tending in some way to such a decision. We haven't... it would be completely out of the blue. For her to do so, having been so comfortable and happy in her lifestyle for so long -- even when she wasn't in a relationship and could have started looking at guys again if she wanted to -- would be a very, very strange storytelling decision. (Remember "Him" when Willow -- who is not in a relationship, and is under the influence of a love spell -- still feels the need to magically transform RJ into a woman before even considering having sex with him? That's a committed lesbian.) I think the fact that Willow wanted to turn RJ into a woman was because A) Anya got the idea in her head and B) She was comfortable at that time with defining herself as a lesbian. Joss likes to explore sexuality so really it just goes by what Willow is defining herself with at that time. There is no doubt that at one time she was sexually attracted to men. Buffy slept with a girl, twice, yet still defines herself as straight. I think Willow is gender blind but only defines herself as a lesbian because currently, she is with one.
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Post by Essentially Yours on Feb 11, 2009 12:17:39 GMT -5
You know what? This all comes down to a question of, do you personally want to see Willow get back with Oz or not? We're all going to adopt and reject whatever viewpoints we need to to justify our preferred outcome. I think Willow's love for Kennedy was conclusively established in "Anywhere But Here." Agreed, as well. I hope for Oz's sake alone, that he's actually found someone else and moved on like Willow has. He's a great guy. He doesn't deserve to have been pining over Willow all these years alone.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 11, 2009 12:25:53 GMT -5
Joss likes to explore sexuality so really it just goes by what Willow is defining herself with at that time. There is no doubt that at one time she was sexually attracted to men. Buffy slept with a girl, twice, yet still defines herself as straight. I think Willow is gender blind but only defines herself as a lesbian because currently, she is with one. Can't agree, because she has consistently defined herself that way even when she is *not* in a relationship. When Tara left her, after Tara died in such a scarring manner, and for most of season 7. Her traumatic experiences might well have caused her to "give up on women" if she didn't feel so much identification now as a lesbian. Even in "Him" when she was under a spell that would make her true desires come out. Joss's ideas of fluid sexual identity don't mean none of his characters ever have fixed preferences. We know for a fact that Willow, right up to the present moment, identifies strongly as a lesbian and has no interest in men at this point in her life. I know she has special feelings toward Oz, but again... not sexual. And if Oz is still hung up on her after all these years, maybe Kennedy needs to parachute down on top of him and start yelling "She gay! You male! Wake up and smell the lesbo!"
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Post by Essentially Yours on Feb 11, 2009 12:36:57 GMT -5
The scary part is... after Kennedy used the words "Les Faux." (I think those were the words, I don't have my comic with me.) I can see Kennedy trying to make it painfully clear to everyone that Willow and her are together. I wouldn't be surprised by a parachuting Kennedy.
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Post by iamthewalrus on Feb 11, 2009 12:55:34 GMT -5
I think that if Joss wanted or foresaw that Willow could have a relationship with a guy after Tara, he wouldn't have made great strives for Willow's character to announce, "Hey, gay now." Willow reinforces that she's gay on the show. I don't deny her love for Oz or her bisexuality, but I the fact that Joss/the writers chose to make Willow's character GAY instead of bi, it would kind of tick me off if Willow got back together with Oz. I know Joss finds sexuality fluid, but if labels have already been placed on the characters BY the characters, it would be out-of-character for them to say otherwise. (Was that confusing?) In any case, I see Kennedy getting severely jealous over Oz. Hopefully, Kennedy won't tick him off and make him go wolfy on her. i totally agree it doesn't matter if Joss thinks sexuality is fluid, Willow (or any other character) won't neccessarily think the same as Joss anyway, i'm just starting to like Kennedy and i don't want her poor little heart to be hurt by Willow and Oz :unsure:
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Post by Essentially Yours on Feb 11, 2009 13:10:16 GMT -5
I think that if Joss wanted or foresaw that Willow could have a relationship with a guy after Tara, he wouldn't have made great strives for Willow's character to announce, "Hey, gay now." Willow reinforces that she's gay on the show. I don't deny her love for Oz or her bisexuality, but I the fact that Joss/the writers chose to make Willow's character GAY instead of bi, it would kind of tick me off if Willow got back together with Oz. I know Joss finds sexuality fluid, but if labels have already been placed on the characters BY the characters, it would be out-of-character for them to say otherwise. (Was that confusing?) In any case, I see Kennedy getting severely jealous over Oz. Hopefully, Kennedy won't tick him off and make him go wolfy on her. i totally agree it doesn't matter if Joss thinks sexuality is fluid, Willow (or any other character) won't neccessarily think the same as Joss anyway, i'm just starting to like Kennedy and i don't want her poor little heart to be hurt by Willow and Oz Exactly. Not everyone views sexuality the same way. Joss is not going to make all of his characters completely open to all types of relationships because of the fact that everyone is different. If all of the characters were fluid, then maybe we shouldn't be discussing the possibility of Willow and Oz getting back together and start wondering if Oz will possibly sleep with Xander.
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Nicholas
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Post by Nicholas on Feb 11, 2009 13:58:59 GMT -5
Believe me when I say I agree with you on the fact that it would be strange and idiotic if Joss made all his characters open to everything. Its obvious that the characters do have fixed prefrences BUT I am basing my opinion and what I think may happen based on Willows actions in Season 1-4 and how she told Oz she felt like she would always be waiting for him.
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Post by Essentially Yours on Feb 11, 2009 16:31:23 GMT -5
I do see your point, Nicholas.
Willow's sexuality has always been a huge debate. Personally, I think it could have been avoided/ make more sense if Willow hadn't have used any labels at all. She could have just said that gender doesn't matter, and it just depends on that particular person. If she was going to use labels, I think the best choice would have been bisexual, unless she truly has decided to never date or be with a man again.
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on Feb 11, 2009 18:31:01 GMT -5
Wow, what a huge debate. And more and more I feel like there's no point debating as everybody is so stubborn and will stick to their first ideas.
Let's say that we don't know yet and only the Oz arc will tell us what's in store for Willow.
However, I have to pick up on something:
Iamthewalrus - it doesn't matter if Joss thinks sexuality is fluid, Willow (or any other character) won't neccessarily think the same as Joss
Joss created the characters, Joss decides the Characters' directions in life, Joss pretty much is the characters. Willow is a ficticious character. Whatever she thinks was thought up by Joss in the first place. I know it's a given but I feel like some people need to be reminded we are talking fiction here, not real people.
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Post by Essentially Yours on Feb 11, 2009 18:45:09 GMT -5
Wow, what a huge debate. And more and more I feel like there's no point debating as everybody is so stubborn and will stick to their first ideas. Let's say that we don't know yet and only the Oz arc will tell us what's in store for Willow. However, I have to pick up on something: Iamthewalrus - it doesn't matter if Joss thinks sexuality is fluid, Willow (or any other character) won't neccessarily think the same as Joss Joss created the characters, Joss decides the Characters' directions in life, Joss pretty much is the characters. Willow is a ficticious character. Whatever she thinks was thought up by Joss in the first place. I know it's a given but I feel like some people need to be reminded we are talking fiction here, not real people. Hmm... well I was about to bow out of this conversation until the issue has actually arrived, but I'm going to have to disagree with you again. Joss did create these characters, but that does not necessarily mean that he made all of the characters have the same beliefs that he does. I think that would pretty obvious just considering the fact that he made Willow a Jewish wiccan lesbian. He gives the characters specific traits that he may not share. You've mentioned that you wanted everyone to keep in mind that these characters are fictious on another post too. I don't see anyone on here that has stated otherwise. This is merely a debate about a character's sexuality based on opinions, references, and facts.
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on Feb 11, 2009 19:02:51 GMT -5
Sorry what I said is confusing. I was not saying that the characters think like Joss but that they think what Joss want them to think. Maybe I wasn't clear and I think I also misunderstood what was said in the first place.
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sarahi
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Post by sarahi on Feb 12, 2009 0:44:58 GMT -5
When Scott Allie talked about the Oz arc, I thought he said that there wouldn't be any big Oz/Willow/Kennedy love triangle.
While I agree that Willow would be taking a step backwards if she drifted back to Oz, I think that Willow being with any other guy would be a development of her character. I don't think of Kennedy and Satsu being together as being a cliche so much as Kennedy finding someone who doesn't stash her away and is seen on canon engaging in social activities other than sex, witchcraft, or fighting evil.
On the subject of RJ, I think that if Willow was really only attracted to women, she would have had the same reaction to the jacket as someone with a y chromosome. Willow still shows hurt reactions when someone gets too close to Xander and when someone brings up Oz. I get how a lesbian would be attracted to someone with Oz's physique, but I don't think Willow's attraction to Xander in S3 can be explained away so easily.
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Post by CowboyGuy on Feb 12, 2009 0:54:55 GMT -5
I was watching Nip/Tuck the other day on DVR...and I thought of Willow.
A character on that show, Liz, is a lesbian. After a one night stand with another male character on the show she acknowledged:
"I am a lesbian. I don't love men Christian, I love you."
I wouldn't be upset if there were a similar exchange as this between Willow and Oz. Willow is now in lesbian relationship number two. I take this as her more or less being a complete lesbian. But I do believe she still loves Oz in some capacity, and always will. Just as Buffy will always love Angel, and will always love Spike. As a gay male, I know that I would never be with a new woman. But I will always love as well as feel a sexual attraction to my first girlfriend. It's a feeling that will never subside, although I would never act on it now. Does that make sense to anyone?
Well, that is merely how I relate my life to how I think Willow might be. I am sure that once Oz does reappear our questions will be answered one way or another.
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Post by SlayerLV on Feb 12, 2009 5:04:33 GMT -5
I was watching Nip/Tuck the other day on DVR...and I thought of Willow. A character on that show, Liz, is a lesbian. After a one night stand with another male character on the show she acknowledged: "I am a lesbian. I don't love men Christian, I love you." I wouldn't be upset if there were a similar exchange as this between Willow and Oz. Willow is now in lesbian relationship number two. I take this as her more or less being a complete lesbian. But I do believe she still loves Oz in some capacity, and always will. Just as Buffy will always love Angel, and will always love Spike. As a gay male, I know that I would never be with a new woman. But I will always love as well as feel a sexual attraction to my first girlfriend. It's a feeling that will never subside, although I would never act on it now. Does that make sense to anyone? Well, that is merely how I relate my life to how I think Willow might be. I am sure that once Oz does reappear our questions will be answered one way or another. I watched that also and now that you say it reminds you of Willow in my mind it does also. Also you totally hit the nail on the head with the always loving someone and will be in your memories; but you won't hook up with them. So pretty much I agree with your whole post.
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Feb 12, 2009 5:56:02 GMT -5
I would love Willow and Oz to get back together, without Tara I don't want Willow with anyone but Oz..
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ligeia
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Post by ligeia on Feb 12, 2009 9:28:16 GMT -5
Scott Allie was right when he said the issue title would make people talk !
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