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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 14, 2009 4:05:55 GMT -5
This is a quote from issue 26-Q&A.
How to fix it?
I'm very much against fixing it for the trade. I have nothing against changing a expression or fixing spelling errors and other small details that appears in the single issues. But wouldn't "fixing" the Warren-scene in issue 26 be re-writing the meaning of the scene?
The fans who buy the single issues and the fans who buy the trades would in a way get a different story. A alternative story.
Maybe it could be fixed without changing too much of the scene, but I doubt it. Maybe a explanation could be given later on in the series.
Maybe Joss Whedon could write a reasonable explanation in the fan-letter-section(like with the first Warren mistake)? Maybe Amy had put a spell on Andrew, making him forget that it was the First in season 7 that haunted him, and made him think it was Warren instead so that Warren could more easily trick Andrew...actually, that would be a dumb plan considering that then Andrew would have more reason to dislike the real Warren.
Seems hard to explain this. So what do you guys think?
Sweep it under the rug, fit it for the trade, or come up with a good explanation?
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Post by henzINNIT on Jul 14, 2009 4:23:56 GMT -5
Fix it.
Warren put Andrew on a bad path with them all under the impression that they'd be some kind of awesome supervillains. This is very similar to what's mentioned, so it's not too hard to fix. Under his "care", Andrew and Jonathan attmepted to rape innocent women and were accessories to murder.
I do think whats written goes for the most emotional punch, so it's a shame but it's completely wrong so I think it should be dealt with.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 14, 2009 7:29:24 GMT -5
I think the error should be fixed, but with as little disruption to the story as possible. It might just be a matter of changing the dialog a bit to indicate that Warren and Andrew both know it was really the First who appeared in season 7... but that Andrew had no trouble believing it was Warren asking him to do those things. That alone would be enough to prove that Warren was no good.
Warren could have found out about that incident from Twilight, or Amy... the battle of Slayer vs. First was a pretty major showdown, and it stands to reason a lot of interested people with magical abilities would have been scanning the situation.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 14, 2009 7:42:30 GMT -5
I think the error should be fixed, but with as little disruption to the story as possible. It might just be a matter of changing the dialog a bit to indicate that Warren and Andrew both know it was really the First who appeared in season 7... but that Andrew had no trouble believing it was Warren asking him to do those things. That alone would be enough to prove that Warren was no good. Warren could have found out about that incident from Twilight, or Amy... the battle of Slayer vs. First was a pretty major showdown, and it stands to reason a lot of interested people with magical abilities would have been scanning the situation. That does sound good, but didn't Andrew admit in Storyteller, in tears, that he deep down knew it wasn't Warren? And he was told by the others that it wasn't Warren? I'm no fan of Andrew, but saying that he was so deep in denial he still thought it was Warren would be disgracing his character far too much. *googling* "ANDREW:Because I killed him. Because I listened to Warren, and I pretended I thought it was him, but I knew?I knew it wasn't." |
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Post by henzINNIT on Jul 14, 2009 8:04:26 GMT -5
Looking at the panels, the only thing that needs to change is one speech bubble...
"I was mislead. I really thought if you killed Jonathan that the three of us would live as Gods"
This can change to something like...
"We got carried away, killed that girl. I really thought we could be supervillains, gods even"
That would be fairly easy and you wouldn't need to change anything else. I think Joss should avoid making Andrew's beliefs in season 7 blurry. It's obvious that the real Warren had nothing to do with it.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 14, 2009 8:55:39 GMT -5
Looking at the panels, the only thing that needs to change is one speech bubble... "I was mislead. I really thought if you killed Jonathan that the three of us would live as Gods" This can change to something like... "We got carried away, killed that girl. I really thought we could be supervillains, gods even" That would be fairly easy and you wouldn't need to change anything else. I think Joss should avoid making Andrew's beliefs in season 7 blurry. It's obvious that the real Warren had nothing to do with it. Making it about Katrina instead of Jonathan is an interesting approach. Even though it was Warren that killed her, Andrew's role in the cover-up could certainly have led him to see himself as a killer after that point. Andrew may also feel that the dark moral path Warren led him down is what made him capable of doing what he did to Jonathan... so in that sense, Warren made him a killer. But Andrew has known at least since "Storyteller" that he is ultimately the one responsible for his own actions, so blaming Warren would be backsliding a bit in his character growth. But, maybe we can excuse Andrew for having an emotional and non entirely logical reaction to seeing Warren like this. This is a tough mistake to understand. The First Evil wanted Andrew to kill Jonathan so his blood would unlock the Hellmouth. That was a major plot point of season 7, so it's odd that Jane or Joss would forget it. They might end up re-doing that whole page, art and all, to eliminate the "We are as Gods" panel and make the whole thing make more sense. |
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Post by buffyfan21 on Jul 14, 2009 11:07:54 GMT -5
They might end up re-doing that whole page, art and all, to eliminate the "We are as Gods" panel and make the whole thing make more sense. I hope they don't take out the "we are as gods" "scene." That was just too funny and I was so glad to see it referenced again. I love it when they include flashbacks in the comics. I am not too worried. I think it is just one of those minor mishaps that Joss will find a way to fix (though I have to say I am a little surprised that Joss and Jane would allow such a slip up to get by them. I know its been a few years, but still). I have confidence that he will come up with an explanation that makes everything make sense. I hope it doesn't change the overall story too much though. |
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Jul 14, 2009 11:20:46 GMT -5
I hope they don't take out the "we are as gods" "scene." That was just too funny and I was so glad to see it referenced again. I love it when they include flashbacks in the comics. Actually, I kind of groaned when I saw that panel. That joke was hilarious in "Storyteller" but I couldn't help thinking "give it a rest already". It seemed a bit indulgent on Jane Espenson's part, and a waste of panel space. |
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Post by wenxina on Jul 14, 2009 11:21:51 GMT -5
Actually, I kind of groaned when I saw that panel. That joke was hilarious in "Storyteller" but I couldn't help thinking "give it a rest already". It seemed a bit indulgent on Jane Espenson's part, and a waste of panel space. At least it wasn't given the whole page treatment. |
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Post by Paul on Jul 14, 2009 11:23:55 GMT -5
Actually, I kind of groaned when I saw that panel. That joke was hilarious in "Storyteller" but I couldn't help thinking "give it a rest already". It seemed a bit indulgent on Jane Espenson's part, and a waste of panel space. At least it wasn't given the whole page treatment. Or a double page spread. Come to think of it, we haven't had too many double page spreads in S8 have we? I can remember Buffy jumping out of the helicopter, and the montage-y scene in #20. Any more? |
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Post by wenxina on Jul 14, 2009 12:05:32 GMT -5
Mel and Buffy falling and fighting in #16. Double-page spreads are usually reserved for really epic things though, right?
EDIT: And if I remember correctly, the panel of Willow and Amy duking it out in #3.
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Post by buffyfan21 on Jul 14, 2009 12:17:37 GMT -5
Eh, maybe Jane is just a really big fan of the "we are as gods" moment. Knowing her, this is entirely possible...  I got a chuckle out of it, but I understand this may not be the case for everyone... |
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Jul 14, 2009 15:15:33 GMT -5
Dawn partying in #11 "A Beautiful Sunset".
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Post by Joe on Jul 14, 2009 16:09:22 GMT -5
Ehh, I'm against just fixing it for the trade. They could easily add a small line or two in the next upcoming Warren scene explaining his reasons for acting like it was him in "Conversations with Dead People" and not The First.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 14, 2009 16:16:24 GMT -5
Ehh, I'm against just fixing it for the trade. They could easily add a small line or two in the next upcoming Warren scene explaining his reasons for acting like it was him in "Conversations with Dead People" and not The First. That still wouldn't explain why Andrew acted like it was Warren, when he clearly knows it wasn't and has said so ("Storyteller") |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 24, 2009 23:25:54 GMT -5
All the listed 'correction' methods, changes, 'letters of explanation', kinda getting freaky. Huh? I didn't understand that sentence. And I have yet to see a good explanation for both Andrew's and Warren's behavior. Can you give me one? EDIT- Why did you delete the post? |
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Post by wenxina on Jul 24, 2009 23:32:19 GMT -5
And I have yet to see a good explanation for both Andrew's and Warren's behavior. Can you give me one? One was offered in the #26 thread. It's actually quite simple: Since Jonathan was the black sheep of the Trio, it's highly possible that Andrew and Warren talked about offing him for the greater good at some point. Andrew was always easily swayed by any promise of grandeur, and Warren telling him that killing Jonathan would make them gods would be about as grand as it gets. Of course, they never killed him in S6, instead opting for the more practical solution of making him the fall-guy for their misdeeds. All the First had to do in S7 was pick up on the whole "Kill a geek, be a god" scheme to try and convince Andrew again. Simple enough. |
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Post by hitnrun017 on Jul 24, 2009 23:38:36 GMT -5
And I have yet to see a good explanation for both Andrew's and Warren's behavior. Can you give me one? One was offered in the #26 thread. It's actually quite simple: Since Jonathan was the black sheep of the Trio, it's highly possible that Andrew and Warren talked about offing him for the greater good at some point. Andrew was always easily swayed by any promise of grandeur, and Warren telling him that killing Jonathan would make them gods would be about as grand as it gets. Of course, they never killed him in S6, instead opting for the more practical solution of making him the fall-guy for their misdeeds. All the First had to do in S7 was pick up on the whole "Kill a geek, be a god" scheme to try and convince Andrew again. Simple enough. I still don't think that works. Andrew tells Warren that he " made him a killer" when they never killed Jonathan. So even if they were hyperthetically planning on killing him in Season 6, that still wouldn't really work. Using Katrina would make a lot more sense. |
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Post by snizapman6294 on Jul 24, 2009 23:39:11 GMT -5
okay... hear me out: i mean, it's not impossible that Amy and Warren were aligned with the First. That Amy was in the process of reviving Warren and could only make him incorporeal at that time... and The First asked them to do this for it because it was busy trying to get the Turok Han out... but that's wayyyyyy out there.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 24, 2009 23:52:05 GMT -5
Wenxina, I guess that's good enough. Has anyone PMed Scott with the idea?
Maybe it could be put in the Slay the critics section of the comic, like with the other Warren-misstake.
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