Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Feb 11, 2010 11:19:41 GMT -5
Then why continue? I'm reading because I like the way Joss Whedon tells stories. Because of his others strengths, the characters and dialogue. I agree that characterisation and dialogue are Joss' strengths as a writer. IMO, his biggest weakness is telling a logical story. Almost all of the major plots in Buffy make NO sense whatsoever. Ask yourself: Why does the Master want to open the Hellmouth? When the Old Ones come out, they'll just kill him. Why does Angelus want to suck the world into hell? It's not his m.o. at all, he prefers intimate, personal torture. What's he going to do with all the humans dead and gone? Why does the Mayor want to be a snake? He'll kill a few people and then someone (Buffy, the army) would blow him up. Pointless. Why does Glory sit around doing nothing when she's on a deadline and she knows Buffy has the Key? What the hell was the First's plan? Seriously? Joss doesn't care about these things so he doesn't worry about them making sense. He's quite lazy in that respect. He's also guilty of using cheap and obvious plot devices, like the Scythe. I actually agree with Joss' stance; plot should play second fiddle to characterisation. A lot of old fashioned Doctor Who fans bitch about Russel T Davies putting drama before science, but I prefer it that way. But let's not pretend he and Joss are flawless writers. Plot holes shouldn't be obvious just because you can't be bothered explaining them.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 11, 2010 11:42:11 GMT -5
I'm thankful for my innate stupidity and lack of refinement that allows me to not care about these things.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Feb 11, 2010 11:48:35 GMT -5
I'm thankful for my innate stupidity and lack of refinement that allows me to not care about these things. What? You've spent the last year complaining about how the vamp fad story in S8 doesn't make any sense. To be honest, I wouldn't have noticed these things if I hadn't rewatched the series like 10 times. Few stories can probably hold up under that much scrutiny.
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Post by henzINNIT on Feb 11, 2010 12:05:42 GMT -5
Paul, you summed it up pretty well. Generally a season of Joss-verse tv will deliver brilliant character arcs, but the same can't be said for the plots - which Joss openly admits aren't a priority. Characters should definately come first, I'm a long-term fan because of those, but it's not an excuse for lazy plotting. Shows are hurt by plot holes and questionable twists. Nothing is perfect, this is generally Joss's achilles heel.
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The Girl In Question
Ensouled Vampire
Lumpy Space Princess
"It eats you starting with your bottom."[Mo0:33]
Posts: 1,674
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Post by The Girl In Question on Feb 11, 2010 13:35:55 GMT -5
Because of his others strengths, the characters and dialogue. I agree that characterisation and dialogue are Joss' strengths as a writer. IMO, his biggest weakness is telling a logical story. Almost all of the major plots in Buffy make NO sense whatsoever. Ask yourself: Why does the Master want to open the Hellmouth? When the Old Ones come out, they'll just kill him. Why does Angelus want to suck the world into hell? It's not his m.o. at all, he prefers intimate, personal torture. What's he going to do with all the humans dead and gone? Why does the Mayor want to be a snake? He'll kill a few people and then someone (Buffy, the army) would blow him up. Pointless. Why does Glory sit around doing nothing when she's on a deadline and she knows Buffy has the Key? What the hell was the First's plan? Seriously? Joss doesn't care about these things so he doesn't worry about them making sense. He's quite lazy in that respect. He's also guilty of using cheap and obvious plot devices, like the Scythe. I actually agree with Joss' stance; plot should play second fiddle to characterisation. A lot of old fashioned Doctor Who fans bitch about Russel T Davies putting drama before science, but I prefer it that way. But let's not pretend he and Joss are flawless writers. Plot holes shouldn't be obvious just because you can't be bothered explaining them. I think some of those Big Bad errors are very fanwankable
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 11, 2010 15:00:15 GMT -5
All I care about is whether I enjoy the story as a whole. Nothing else really matters to me.
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Billie Erin
Ensouled Vampire
"I go back to December"
"I picked up a hitchhiker. You've got to when you hit them."[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,536
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Post by Billie Erin on Feb 11, 2010 15:43:59 GMT -5
I reckon fix it for the trade, if you care so much about getting a different story in the trade then you can always buy it (or just read that page in the comic store, nobody will notice)
I was actually really impressed with Allie's answer to this, it takes a lot of courage to be totally honest and just fess up to mistakes and in the business of media courage and honesty aren't things you see often. I don't hold the fact that they made a mistake against them, the Buffy mythology can be very complex at times and if tons of us hardcore fans who've watched the series for years didn't notice it then how were they supposed to?
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Feb 11, 2010 16:54:43 GMT -5
I think some of those Big Bad errors are very fanwankable I'm all for a bit of fanwank but some of those plots are downright stupid. Seriously, what was the Mayor's reasoning for becoming a snake? I guess you could just say he was crazy but that's kind of a copout.
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Post by wenxina on Feb 11, 2010 17:22:28 GMT -5
I think some of those Big Bad errors are very fanwankable I'm all for a bit of fanwank but some of those plots are downright stupid. Seriously, what was the Mayor's reasoning for becoming a snake? I guess you could just say he was crazy but that's kind of a copout. It probably sounded really cool when he first started the plan a hundred years or so ago. Also, Sunnydale being on the Hellmouth, he could probably have gotten some acolytes to open the Hellmouth, bring hell on earth, and ruled a sizable chunk of real estate. The Mayor, having Ascended, would be pure demon, and therefore one of the big wigs then, unlike the filthy hybrids that walk the earth now. Which probably means that he would have sided with Glory and her plan to bring down the dimensional barriers in S5... which would've been an interesting concept. Try that one for a "What if?" fic... Glory would be like his prodigal daughter... always "me me me!" and the Mayor acting like the hurt but indulgent father.
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Post by henzINNIT on Feb 11, 2010 17:24:40 GMT -5
It was said in Season 3 that he'd be damn near invincible soon after the transformation. Pretty cool perk, Buffy had to act quickly to stop him before he gained the strength. I'd rather keep the regular body and invincibility he had earlier in the season though, personally lol.
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Post by Emmie on Feb 11, 2010 17:32:05 GMT -5
The Mayor would have been a pure demon, which I'm surmising is an Old One. By turning into the pure demon, he probably would have mastered more powers as he became accustomed to his new body. I can easily imagine him having a fondness for the ability to light things on fire with his breath--instantly kills the germs!
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Post by wytchcroft on Feb 11, 2010 21:17:31 GMT -5
a fondness for the ability to light things on fire with his breath--instantly kills the germs! oh... poor Molly...
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Feb 12, 2010 9:08:31 GMT -5
It was said in Season 3 that he'd be damn near invincible soon after the transformation. Pretty cool perk, Buffy had to act quickly to stop him before he gained the strength. I'd rather keep the regular body and invincibility he had earlier in the season though, personally lol. Did he say that he'd become invincible after his Ascension? I don't remember that, that would make marginally more sense. And I agree, I think having an invincible human body would be more useful than being a big snake. This isn't an actual complaint, because I know there were limited by television SFX, but the Mayor picked a really crappy Old One to turn into, didn't he? Olvikan isn't a patch on Illyria!
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Billie Erin
Ensouled Vampire
"I go back to December"
"I picked up a hitchhiker. You've got to when you hit them."[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,536
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Post by Billie Erin on Feb 12, 2010 14:41:58 GMT -5
It was said in Season 3 that he'd be damn near invincible soon after the transformation. Pretty cool perk, Buffy had to act quickly to stop him before he gained the strength. I'd rather keep the regular body and invincibility he had earlier in the season though, personally lol. Did he say that he'd become invincible after his Ascension? I don't remember that, that would make marginally more sense. And I agree, I think having an invincible human body would be more useful than being a big snake. This isn't an actual complaint, because I know there were limited by television SFX, but the Mayor picked a really crappy Old One to turn into, didn't he? Olvikan isn't a patch on Illyria! I don't think it was an old one- I swear it was just a "pure demon" or are they the same thing? And I don't think he became invincible afterwards either . . .?
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Post by henzINNIT on Feb 12, 2010 18:06:04 GMT -5
It's said he'd be really really hard to kill, and the Mayor said to Faith that he'd need to gain strength after the transformation. It's never said that he would be invincible, but I thought it was clear that Buffy's chances of taking him down relied on that window before he grew too strong.
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martodd
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 36
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Post by martodd on Feb 13, 2010 1:58:56 GMT -5
The Mayor wanted to become a higher being, a special individual. Isn’t that what all the politics want in real life? He wanted to become a special god-like monster. I, personally, am more than happy to have my human side, but he wasn’t. He wanted to be become more, to be more.
And you’re seriously asking for the First’s plan? “It’s all about power”. It’s not en exact quote, but I remember Buffy saying something like “So that’s what it wants. To kill all the potentials. And then Faith. And then me.” The First’s plan from the beginning was the destroy the slayer line. And than, eventually, when the world is no longer a world of the slayer, to tame it.
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weredog
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Post by weredog on Feb 13, 2010 15:11:38 GMT -5
The Mayor wanted to become a higher being, a special individual. Isn’t that what all the politics want in real life? He wanted to become a special god-like monster. I, personally, am more than happy to have my human side, but he wasn’t. He wanted to be become more, to be more. I support this! Here, I have to argue that obtaining absolute power wasn't the First's plan, but rather the First's goal. If I understand the other poster's dismay correctly, they meant 'plan' as in strategic actions. In which case, The First was, uh, lacking. He spent approximately six months (Summer to Christmas) on Spike to the point of the driving him insane, so that The First could what? Open the seal? No, that was Andrew's case. There is no answer to the extensive 'work' on Spike since none was ever given. Anytime the writers tiptoed around that discussion, it was always nailed shut with a "The First isn't done with him yet" or "We still don't what The First wants with Spike." Which is a similar case with Andrew. Andrew and The First plotted to get Jonathan's blood to open the seal so that they can unleash a Turok-Han. They realize after sacrificing Jonathan that the man had too little blood. Great homework, guys. So what's their second plan? A piggy. Because we all know pigs hold more litters of blood than a 5'2" man. At first, I wasn't sure if the writers were trying to be funny by showing two dimwits trying/failing at unleashing world-devastation. But later episodes confirmed that they're not actually two dimwits; the one dimwit is with his friend: the Earth's original evil. Really? If The First is the supposed master manipulator, he doesn't seem to know exactly what he's manipulating people for. This affair with Andrew, like with Spike, is never answered: "The First isn't done with him yet," "We still don't know what the First wants with Andrew." This is why I think season seven contains some of the series' worst. The ideas were overly convoluted; the creative laziness was nothing but blatant. The First teased about a Master Plan: one that involved Spike, Andrew, Willow, Dawn, and Wood -- none of which were ever explained, let alone explored. So the question remains: what was the The First's plan? And why does he suck at thinking of one?
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martodd
Innocent Bystander
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Post by martodd on Feb 13, 2010 17:10:58 GMT -5
I have to think more about Andrew, I’ve seen his storyline as a mystery, so your rising interesting questions and I should rewatch some episodes of the season when I have the time. But everything else I see as First’s attempt to weaken Buffy and eventually kill her, ending the slayer line forever. The First’s plan was simple – to kill all the potentials, then Faith, than Buffy. It killed as many of the potentials as it could. It tried to kill Faith in jail (in an Angel episode). But with Buffy it was more difficult, because Buffy is not alone and she has some really powerful allies. As for Spike, I have always believed, that First’s plan was to use him at the very end, he would have been the one to kill Buffy, when all the potentials and Faith are already gone. The First probably decided he would have been the best for the job, because Buffy had a soft spot for him and he was really easy to manipulate, having the trigger and all. They have never said it on the show, but I have always believe that this was the First original plan for him And also Spike was part of another plan, but more on that later. Willow’s part seems quite simple for me. The First knew just how powerful Willow is and it didn’t want to have her as an enemy. The First tried to convince Willow to stop doing magic and it failed. And in the end Willow’s light magic was the thing that gave Buffy her powerful army. The case with Wood was similar. The First knew he is a strong fighter and didn’t want Buffy to have an ally like that. The First knew Wood would eventually die in a serious fight with Spike, that’s why it wanted to provoke that fight. The First missed again. Spike didn’t act as the First hoped, he faced and battled his inner demons and he eventually won. So he didn’t kill Wood. But if the plan had worked, Buffy would be one fighter short. And ever worse – the split in Buffy’s team would have been really big if Wood had actually died. But here the First partly succeeded – it broke the connection between Buffy and Giles, which was crucial for its plan. The other actions I see as an attempt to weak Buffy’s confidence and inner balance. The First tried to convince Dawn that Buffy’s not worthy for her trust. The First managed to separate Buffy from her mentor, Giles. The First managed to make Buffy look inappropriate for a leader in the eyes of her team. Every connection Buffy had, every support she counted on were twisted and turned and Buffy lost everybody. Well, almost. She never lost Spike. He came to her at her weakest moment and he gave her the straight to keep fighting. But if he hasn’t? It the First had succeeded with its original plan for him? If the First had succeeded to gain full control of him? Then no one would have been there for Buffy. That’s why Spike was crucial for the plan - if Buffy had lost him, she would have given up. So what would have happen if all of the above plans were not failures, but had succeeded? Spike would have killed Wood. Dawn, Giles and the girls would have had turned their backs on Buffy. Buffy would have been alone and she wouldn’t find the straight to keep fighting. So Faith would have been the leader in the final fight. She would have led the girls to the bomb. The bomb would have exploded killing or seriously hurting the girls. The ubervampires would have done the rest. With Faith, Wood and the girls dead, Spike out of control and Willow out of magic, the rest of Buffy’s friends would have been really easy to kill. And then Spike would have been sent to Buffy, when she is alone and weak and he would have killed her. And that’s how the slayer line would have ended forever. I don’t think it was the best plan ever, but then again, it really could have worked with a better luck. The First maybe changed some things in the progress, but its main goal was always to weaken Buffy and to end the slayer line. Even in its season 3 episode, the First try to work with the material it had. It tried to convince Angel to kill Buffy and when it failed, it decided that Angel killing himself would also work, because that would have crushed Buffy’s inner balance, as weak as it was back then. Actually, season 7 was my favorite season of the show
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cant
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 32
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Post by cant on Feb 13, 2010 18:15:47 GMT -5
İ know it never mentoined or explained but for me first want to get scythe and cast a spell that makes slayer passing rule broke (like what willow did but totally opasite way ) and make only faith and buffy slayer then kill them all and like first itself said after it kills enough people it ll be corporeal that what first real plan for me.İt gonna use caleb for casting spell or like ...
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