If Spike never got the chip...

[jdgjordan]

It's the question that bugs us all. What would Spike be like if he never got his chip? Would he still be evil [thus never getting his soul] never saving the world and closing the Hellmouth; or would he have ultimately turned good no matter what?

I think Spike would have turned good no matter what because he fell in love with Buffy, but maybe would have done a few more evil deeds along the way.

[Whedon Fan]

He was never good without the chip, as Buffy said he was an "evil, soulless thing, there is nothing good or pure about you, you are dead inside" He could do whatever he wanted to without the chip except physically hurt people, but he done good things for Buffy and to help the scoobies.

[Alexandra]

It seems to me that Spike was from the beginning driven by love. As a human, he loved his mother and was madly in love with Cecily. Then he was sired by Drusilla and again, spent more than a century loving her until she dumped him. Harmony was obviously just his rebound & sex only phase and then he could move on to obsess over Buffy. The point is he was obviously capable of doing good deeds when he eventually fell for a good girl and his character really transformed trough Season 5. Which led to events of Seasons 6 & 7 with all ups and downs. If he never got his chip nothing would stop him from leaving Sunnydale as he did in Season 2 or he would keep trying to kill Buffy and Yoda knows how this would end.

[Alexandra]

Aug 14, 2009 11:29:58 GMT -5 Whedon Fan said:

He was never good without the chip, as Buffy said he was an "evil, soulless thing, there is nothing good or pure about you, you are dead inside" He could do whatever he wanted to without the chip except physically hurt people, but he done good things for Buffy and to help the scoobies.

Actually, I think it's a little more complicated. As I said above, soulless vampires are capable of doing good things. (Another example is Harmony. Yes, she eventually betrayed Angels but it's not sure she would do it if Angel treated her better. Anyway, Harmony has her own forum topic somewhere else.) I've read Why Buffy Matters by Rhonda Wilcox and the author believes that Spike might have started to feel change to the good even before he got soul. She also says that when he found out he could hit Buffy and in an instant ran to feed on someone and commented on his own actions...

"Just 'cause [Buffy's] confused about where she fits in, I'm supposed to be too? 'Cause I'm not."

"I'm evil ... I am a killer. That's what I do. I kill. And yeah - maybe it's been a long time. But it's not like you forget how. You just do it. And now I can again - all right? So here goes."

... he seems to protest too much and almost convincing himself.

Another quote from the book:

"In the end, he almost apologizes to the intended victim. "This might hurt a little." "

There's a whole chapter dedicated to Buffy and Spike's relationship.

I feel like by saying "Spike was unquestionably a monster and his lack of soul made him do the nasty" it makes it easier to put the attempted rape simply on the lack of soul. That might be true if he hadn't done anything good before. And Spike did the hell of a good stuff.
I know it's not the topic here, however, the Season 6 almost rape thing feels unresolved... generally and personally.

One more thing I want to mention from the WBM book is the scene Whedon Fan quoted. Wilcox's theory is that Buffy's speech to Spike is more about her own demons than is. Spike is seen as one of Buffy's shadow figures and when she's saying "evil, soulless thing ... nothing good or pure ... dead inside" she's talking about her own hated post-death quality represented by Spike, about not being able to connect to anyone but him.

(Whedon Fan, although I quoted your post, don't take it as I oppose it more like I was inspired by it. )

(And sorry for the lenght, I really need to talk Buffy right now. )

[gumgnome]

I disagree with you all on this. I think that without the chip, Spike would never have taken a long enough moment out of his un-life to assess his obsession with Buffy. I think he would have just carried on trying to kill her until either he succeeded or she killed him.
It is only when he is thrown out of a sense of self and belonging to the vampires that he actually even begins to contemplate her as more than just a nemesis and target and without the chip, I doubt that would ever change.

[Johanne]

I agree with what Alexandra said (great post
I think Spike would've become "good" eventually, even if he didn't have his chip. Although things definitely would've happened a lot differently.

[Joe]

If Spike wasn't given a chip, he wouldn't have been made a regular. Joss said in one of the commentaries that the chip was a way to get Spike almost into the group and without that, he wouldn't have been a regular.

[lightandmagic]

Without the chip, Spike would have kept trying to kill Buffy and either have succeeded or died trying. There is no way Spike would have remotely turned good without it.

[snizapman6294]

i was thinking about this the other day. i came to the conclusion:

Buffy would've killed Spike in season 4. without a doubt. and Spike probably would've killed a scooby, leading to his staking by buffy.

[cutiepatootie]

Yeah. Buffy would of killed him sooner or later. I never really liked him - good or evil. Giles and Robin had such a point when they tried to kill him. He WAS a liability. It's too easy to be wise in hindsight.

He probably would of killed Willow early season 4.

[elenasaur]

I feel like Spike did what he wanted, any way he could.
So, for the most part, Spike liked to fight people. He got his chip, and then he couldn't fight humans, but he could still fight demons. So he wasn't legit on the good side, he was fighting the good fight because that was the only fight he actually could fight.
Without the chip, he probably would continue on his moderately evil path, and what with the fully being capable of doing bad things part, Buffy probably would have staked him. Either because of some demonic plot or because he hurt one of the scoobies.

[qtip]

Lol, not a chance. Without a chip there is no way in hell Spike would have become good or give a toss about Buffy. The chip basically forced him to become good. His other option was to be a lame ass vamp that couldn't even kill.

[testingthetheory]

You seem to forget that Spike made a deal with Buffy to kill Angel in S2. Long before the chip was implanted in his head. He had already fought on Buffy's side, no matter what his reason was at the time. He was willing to help her, even when he had specifically come to Sunnydale to kill 'the slayer'

[gumgnome]

Sept 1, 2009 5:40:19 GMT -5 testingthetheory said:

You seem to forget that Spike made a deal with Buffy to kill Angel in S2. Long before the chip was implanted in his head. He had already fought on Buffy's side, no matter what his reason was at the time. He was willing to help her, even when he had specifically come to Sunnydale to kill 'the slayer'

I agree with this, but can even subscribe to the notion that Spike is obsessed with Buffy before he gets his chip (e.g. the Brazil flash-back with Drusilla). However, I don't think that this obsession would turn into anything like love without the chip - Spike needs to be pushed out of the violence and killing that he has enjoyed for a century and made to think about his existence and place in the world before something like that will develop in him.

[Chaos]

Aug 14, 2009 12:34:54 GMT -5 Alexandra said:

Actually, I think it's a little more complicated. As I said above, soulless vampires are capable of doing good things.

I agree with Alexandra on this point. It's more complicated than chip &/or soul makes a bad vampire good. And as the show continued to develop this character and explore what made him tick, black & white became gray.

The chip was an event that took Spike in a new & unexpected direction, ultimately forcing him to alter his behavior and mindset.

History shows that Spike has always been a creature motivated by his emotions. I don't think his ability to love and feel compassion was caused by the chip, but rather, concealing and denying those emotions became much more difficult for him.

Certain events might have taken a different course had he not been chipped, but I think the same outcome - getting his soul, falling in love with Buffy, saving the world, etc - was still possible for Spike.

[gumgnome]

Sept 1, 2009 8:26:21 GMT -5 Chaos said:

Aug 14, 2009 12:34:54 GMT -5 Alexandra said:

Actually, I think it's a little more complicated. As I said above, soulless vampires are capable of doing good things.

I agree with Alexandra on this point. It's more complicated than chip &/or soul makes a bad vampire good. And as the show continued to develop this character and explore what made him tick, black & white became gray.

The chip was an event that took Spike in a new & unexpected direction, ultimately forcing him to alter his behavior and mindset.

History shows that Spike has always been a creature motivated by his emotions. I don't think his ability to love and feel compassion was caused by the chip, but rather, concealing and denying those emotions became much more difficult for him.

Certain events might have taken a different course had he not been chipped, but I think the same outcome - getting his soul, falling in love with Buffy, saving the world, etc - was still possible for Spike.

I think that you're right in saying that the ability to love in Spike was not caused by the chip, but you also say immediately prior to this that the chip forced him to alter his behaviour. I think this is what is important. It is this radical change in direction for him that forces him into a position to change. Among other things, the inability to act (kill) makes him more thoughtful and it is this that turns obsession into love.

[willow333]

I'm going to go with alot of others here. I think Buffy would have killed Spike without his chip. He was harmless t oher with it, and without a monster. He might have eventually still loved Buffy and fought for his soul if Buffy allowed him to live, which I doubt.

[testingthetheory]

I always keep thinking that the chip was a catalyst. Like I mentioned before, Spike was more obsessed with killing The Slayer rather than 'Buffy'.