Tara the hypocrite.

[faithswatcher]

Just chosen a random episode to watch. Chose family for the heart warming ending.
Anyway...
In season 6, Tara is maddened at the idea of Willow wiping her mind of a negative memory (the argument).
And then in the next episode, Willow again wipes everyones mind to rid a negative memory (Buffy being dragged out of heaven), but it goes horribly wrong. This is too much for her to cope with.

Ok now back to "Family". Tara uses magic to rid everyones sight of the demon in her. It goes horribly wrong and almost kills everyone. The scoobies understand and there are no hard feelings kept.

Tara's spell is alot more selfish, and yes although Willow was also in the wrong, she had good intentions. And again, although Willow was going off the rails which helped in Tara leaving Willow, her original reaction to mind rape is quite hypocritical in comparison to Tara's mind rape a year earlier.

Thoughts?

[Paul]

I think Tara's attitude towards Willow's abuse of magic actually stems from "Family". She used magic for selfish reasons and it nearly got her friends killed. The difference is, Tara learns her lesson and never does it again, whereas Willow repeatedly misuses magic with no regard for the consequences.

So I don't think she's hypocritcal at all, if anything her previous experience actually validates the points she makes to Willow in S6.

[faithswatcher]

Interesting, has redeemed that a bit for me now thinking about it that way. But i still think Tara should have stuck it out and been a (little) more patient. Willow did exactly the same thing as Tara, there were no hard feelings held towards Tara, whereas Tara just upped and left when Willow did it.

[snizapman6294]

i understand what you're saying, but hypocrite may not be the right word.

i think it's just that Tara had made one mistake where Willow was abusing magic throughout some of season 5 and most of season 6. So it's kind of like the "Three Strikes: You're Out" deal. Tara had one strike in Family. But Willow had Bring Buffy back, Tabula Rasa, Removing Tara's Memory. Which are all examples of Willow using Dark Magicks.

So you're right in saying that Tara did something wrong, but Willow had multiple chances throughout seasons 5 and 6, and almost every time, she made a mistake.

But Tara's biggest argument is that Glory basically wiped her mind of everything. and she was afraid that Willow may have caused some damage when she cast her spells.

[Alexandra]

I disagree. It's a lot worse to completely change someone's mind, which Tara didn't, in order to make life easier for herself which Willow did. She wanted to avoid more arguing, wanted to make her feelings of guilt disappear, but that's not the way.

It's like with Jasmine. I don't think the world needs to be forcibly made happy and peaceful by removing its free will.

Another example: Angel. I fully support his decision to give Connor a happy family life but I'm sure it would have been fairer not changing his friends' minds as well.

Edit: However, I'm not saying Tara acted right. Just don't think it's really comparable to what Willow/Jasmine/Angel did.

[Rebecca]

Aug 16, 2009 13:08:46 GMT -5 faithswatcher said:

Interesting, has redeemed that a bit for me now thinking about it that way. But i still think Tara should have stuck it out and been a (little) more patient. Willow did exactly the same thing as Tara, there were no hard feelings held towards Tara, whereas Tara just upped and left when Willow did it.

Tara didn't just up and leave. There were three very big reasons why Tara left.

(1) Willow was repeatedly abusing magic
(2) When Tara confronted Willow about her abuse, Willow didn't want to fight and avoided it, disallowing Tara's contribution to the relationship and therefore creating an unhealthy and abusive relationship.
(3) Willow used magic to manipulate Tara's mind knowing full well that Glory had already done this. Twice.

Tara didn't just up and leave for no good reason. I think she stuck it out like a trooper because she loved Willow, and the final--and biggest--reason for Tara leaving was to tell Willow that she needed help. Talking about it didn't work because Willow wouldn't allow it.... and actions speak louder than words.

[buffyfan21]

Aug 16, 2009 13:02:51 GMT -5 Paul said:

I think Tara's attitude towards Willow's abuse of magic actually stems from "Family". She used magic for selfish reasons and it nearly got her friends killed. The difference is, Tara learns her lesson and never does it again, whereas Willow repeatedly misuses magic with no regard for the consequences.

So I don't think she's hypocritcal at all, if anything her previous experience actually validates the points she makes to Willow in S6.

I agree 100%. Not much I can add except to say that I really don't think Tara has a hypocritical bone in her body. If anything, she is one of the most benevolent, caring, and loving characters on the show. Her anger towards Willow's misuse and abuse of magic is certainly understood, especially given all that Tara herself had been through. Tara's anger towards Willow did not come from a place of being hypocritical or acting better than or holier-than-though, it came from a place of concern and love for Willow. The others might not have seen just how far Willow's magic addiction had gone, but Tara, having been around magic her entire life (her mother was also a witch), probably knew when things were getting way out of hand. I think Tara is the last person to think herself a superior know-it-all, she only wished to protect the woman she loved from going down a path of destruction. And then when she finally realized there was nothing she could do to save Willow from herself, she got to a point where she could no longer just stand by and helplessly watch Willow destroy herself. And who could possibly blame her for this? The fact that Tara remained by Willow's side so long throughout her magic addiction shows just how much she was devoted and committed to her. But after a certain point there's only so much a person can take and the self-destruction just becomes to painful to watch. Even the kind-hearted Tara decided enough was enough and realized that the only way through was to let Willow hit bottom.

[buffyfan21]

And we must also remember that everyone makes mistakes. Tara made her mistake and learned from it. Never again did she attempt anything like the spell in S5. Willow, on the other hand, continued to put the lives of those she loved in danger, manipulating the world around her for her own selfish reasons. So, saying that the mistake Tara made in S5 is comparable to all that Willow did in S6, really isn't fair imo.

Don't get me wrong, I love Willow to death, I see a great deal of myself in her actually, but I did find myself getting fed up with her in S6, much like I imagine Tara was feeling.

[Jsebold87]

I too don't think Tara was hypocritical either. After all that Willow put her through it doesn't shock me that she couldn't put up with it any longer. What Willow did to her was horrible, especially after what Glory had done to her.

I really don't like magic-obsessed Willow at all, I love her as a cute nerd, but magic really changed her. I especially hated the scene where she brings up that she can make Buffy forget she was even in heaven. How can she even contemplate that? Just because it's easier for her to get rid of her own guilt, she shouldn't turn to magic for a solution to everything.

And what I want to know is why everyone assumed Buffy was in hell, could they not contemplate that Buffy was in heaven? Buffy was a hero, always fought for good, and yet they believed she was in hell? It should have crossed their minds, unless they were just being selfish in wanting her back that they made themselves assume the worst.

[buffyfan21]

Aug 17, 2009 19:31:16 GMT -5 Jsebold87 said:

And what I want to know is why everyone assumed Buffy was in hell, could they not contemplate that Buffy was in heaven? Buffy was a hero, always fought for good, and yet they believed she was in hell? It should have crossed their minds, unless they were just being selfish in wanting her back that they made themselves assume the worst.

I have often wondered the same thing. I pretty much came to the same conclusion as you. The Scobs were just selfish and did not want to know where Buffy was, they just wanted their friend back. Plus, I think it was a big coo for Willow, proving to the others that she was powerful enough to bring Buffy back from the dead. And when she finally did succeed in bringing Buffy back, she was stunned that Buffy did not immediately fall down on her knees and thank her for rescuing her from an eternal hell dimension. I think all the scobs were selfish in assuming that Buffy was suffering some unbearable torment (never one thought of her being in a happier/better place), but perhaps Willow was most selfish of all. I don't mean to sound harsh, but I think part of this was all about a power trip to Willow (as evidenced in the way she talks to Giles upon his return). The others were simply falling in line b/c they were too afraid to tell her no. We can clearly see that they had their misgivings about going through with the spell.

I don't mean to sound like I am some Willow-hater (I certainly am not), but I agree with you, I like the geeky/nerdy/charming Willow, before she became all addicted to magic. And while she was still those things, I feel a part of that got lost as she was dealing with her struggles. There were just moments in S6 where, while I felt for her situation, I really didn't like her very much sometimes. I just became so sick of the cocky/arrogant attitude of hers.

[Jsebold87]

I totally agree. I love Willow myself, but season 6 (and part of 5) was a bit too much for me to take.

Willow also didn't tell the gang how much dark magic was involved with resurrecting Buffy, I'm sure if the rest of the gang knew how bad it actually was they would have taken a stand against her.

We can also go back to the time when Joyce died, and when Dawn wanted to bring her back. Willow pops the book a bit off the shelf so Dawn can see it, knowing full well what could happen. I'm really not sure why she did that, she knew how much Dawn missed her mother, and that she would attempt to do what the book said, and yet she still did it.

After season 4 Willow lost respect for magic, and started doing it for personal gain, and just to do it.

I'm probably coming off as some Willow hater, but I'm really not, I just don't like the direction her character took in later seasons. We should have gotten back the nerdy Willow.

[gumgnome]

Aug 17, 2009 19:31:16 GMT -5 Jsebold87 said:

And what I want to know is why everyone assumed Buffy was in hell, could they not contemplate that Buffy was in heaven? Buffy was a hero, always fought for good, and yet they believed she was in hell? It should have crossed their minds, unless they were just being selfish in wanting her back that they made themselves assume the worst.

It's simply selfish desire to have their friend back, as Buffyfan21 says. I know they feel really bad about it afterwards, but I've always thought they never really had to face the consequences of those actions either. It's really Buffy who suffers over being brought back, even though she had no choice in the matter. The Scoobies spend a few episodes feeling bad about what they've done, and then their guilt just kind of fades, even though Buffy's clearly still not in a good place. Bugs me a little.

[lightandmagic]

I think their reasoning as to why Buffy would be in some hell dimension was because she dived through a portal that led to an unbearble hell dimension, Glory's homeland, or one of the many hell dimensions that was bleeding into the world through using the key. Sure her body may have stayed on this plane, but who's to say that her spirit didn't end up in one of those terrible places?

[buffyfan21]

You do make a good argument, lightandmagic, and I agree to an extent. My point is, though, that given what a good person Buffy was/is, so much so that she was willing to sacrifice her own life so that others may live, it just doesn't make sense to me that the scoobies wouldn't even consider for one moment Buffy being in a better place. I personally think it was their own selfishness that kept them from truly considering any alternative.

[lightandmagic]

Oh no definitely, it definitely was selfishness and their missing of Buffy over their fear of her being in a hell dimension. It was just that people kept asking why people thought she was there in the first place, so I thought I'd post their viewpoint as to why she may be in a hell dimension.

[buffyfan21]

Well, it does make sense that given all the demons, darkness, and badness that surrounds the scoobies on a daily basis, a better place isn't exactly the first thing that would come to mind. They knew what Angel went through, suffering years of hellfire and torment, perhaps they thought that Buffy met a similar fate (plus, it's as you said, she did jump into a portal that demons and other badies were escaping from). It does make sense. Something about the whole sitch just irks me is all. Given the nature of Buffy's death, one of ultimate love and sacrifice, it also makes sense that she would find herself in a better place.

[gumgnome]

Aug 18, 2009 17:50:46 GMT -5 lightandmagic said:

I think their reasoning as to why Buffy would be in some hell dimension was because she dived through a portal that led to an unbearble hell dimension, Glory's homeland, or one of the many hell dimensions that was bleeding into the world through using the key. Sure her body may have stayed on this plane, but who's to say that her spirit didn't end up in one of those terrible places?

That's a good point. I had never thought of it like that before. Of course, if that portal was meant to lead to all dimensions then how come we never saw anything nice come out of it. I mean, do all of the other dimensions suck that badly?

[lightandmagic]

When I first watched it and didn't know Buffy was in heaven, I was siding with Willow in the ressurection, although a bit creeped out went she went all deer-killy. Then when I found out she was in heaven, it just made me rethink the situation, and how they just kind of charged into it without even thinking. It's kind of a tough judgement call. =/

[Smashed]

As a humongous Tara fan, this thread kind of made me gasp.

Faithswatcher, you do make a lot of good points!

I love reading active Buffyverse conversations!