I whose arms did Wesley die?

[XanderHarris]

So, this been bugging me quite a long time. I watched "Not Fade Away" for the very first time several years ago. Without having read any kind of article or production information or thread.
To me, it was not Illyria in the form of Fred who held Wesley in her arms - I always assumed it was Fred.

Yeah, she was not alive in the actual sense and we know Illyria could shift her shape, but the way she "lied" to Wesley - not even a demon-god can be that good at lying. Plus, we learned that it was intended Illyria could not only assume Fred's appearance, but that Fred would actually - with her personality - return into her former body (as seen in After the Fall).

So, my explanation for my theory is: When Wesley died, good old Fred resurfaced (Illyria permitting her so) and that it was actually Fred Wesley had his last conversation with.
Makes their heartbreaking goodbye not a lie, but a redemption for both of them.


What do you think?
At least, that's how it went in my little world. And it's gonna stay that way.

[Skytteflickan88]

Actually, in After the fall, Fred never returned. Illyria just "remembered" what it was like to be Fred, and I think she sometimes actually fooled herself into thinking she was momentarily Fred.

I don't know what the writers where intending to show in Not fade away: Illyria pretending to be Fred, or Fred resurfacing.

But I think it's safe to say after After the fall that Fred was never in there. Just her memories.

Of course, this opens up new questions. Could a part of Fred's essence be left in Illyria, or is it just memories? Do memories count as a part of a person? We can't say that vampires are just beasts without personlity, they are "people", yet they have no souls. How does that compare to what's left of Fred in Illyria? In case Illyria was drawn out of Fred's body, would the memories be enough to make a person? Like with vampires (minus the demon of course)?

[BlueJay]

Wesley died in Illyria's arms. It's established that Illyria can impersonate Fred perfectly in "The Girl in Question" and in After the Fall. Illyria even asks for Wesley's permission to pretend to be Fred by saying "would you like me to lie to you now?" And Wesley agrees and dies believing that he's dying in Fred's arm.

Fred's completely gone. It's been said by a lot of characters already that Fred's essence/soul was destroyed by Illyria taking over and the only thing that's left of Fred are her and her friends memories.

Could Fred come back? Maybe. But as of now, Fred has been out of the picture since "A Whole in the World".

[XanderHarris]

It just always seemed odd to me that Illyria, even though she never really had those strong feelings for Wesley (or at least not showing them) could devote to the feelings Fred had for Wesley, that she would even cry and be shattered by Wesley's death.
So I always assumed - even for a moment - Fred took over control and spoke to Wesley during his final moments. Just because their dialogue seemed so real.
And when Wesley passed away, Illyria regained control over their body and killed Vale.

[BlueJay]

The dialog between Wesley and Illyria during his final moments heavily implies that Fred's not really there.

Illyria (as Fred): It's gonna be OK. It won't hurt much longer, and then you'll be where I am. We'll be together.

I believe Illyria is speaking to him for Fred. She's saying what Fred couldn't be there to say.

[VampSlayer]

It was Illyria that was talking to Wesley. She even asked if Wesley wanted her to look like Fred for him. Poor Fred was destroyed completely to bring Illyria into our world. Her situation really was terrible, and still is. Poor Fred.

[willowsummers]

I thought I had posted on here before but my account says differently, so I'll say Hi.
I like thinking that Illyria is a separate being but that Fred still exists to some extent in her. Illyria is so able to reproduce her and her memories and she even seems to share the same emotions for certain characters are Fred did. If you carefully note her reactions to various characters she seems to almost remember them or feel the same as Fred did as if she shared something with her. I also believe that, in a strange way, Illyria loved Wesley. When she was brought into this world and found it so different than the one she'd come from, and when Wesley lost Fred, the two of them had a lot in common and seemed to share a common bond despite their reasons to hate each other. Illyria from the beginning seemed to show a certain amount of respect and then eventually almost affection for Wesley as time went on and during that last scene, her sacrifice and her ability to do what she did, showed a level of human compassion and maybe even love that is definitely notable. Illyria/Fred is fascinating to me and so is Wesley's relationship to them. I also happen to be watching the end of season 5 again right now so I am particularly thinking about these issues.

[VampSlayer]

Oct 17, 2009 21:28:40 GMT -5 willowsummers said:

I thought I had posted on here before but my account says differently, so I'll say Hi.
I like thinking that Illyria is a separate being but that Fred still exists to some extent in her. Illyria is so able to reproduce her and her memories and she even seems to share the same emotions for certain characters are Fred did. If you carefully note her reactions to various characters she seems to almost remember them or feel the same as Fred did as if she shared something with her. I also believe that, in a strange way, Illyria loved Wesley. When she was brought into this world and found it so different than the one she'd come from, and when Wesley lost Fred, the two of them had a lot in common and seemed to share a common bond despite their reasons to hate each other. Illyria from the beginning seemed to show a certain amount of respect and then eventually almost affection for Wesley as time went on and during that last scene, her sacrifice and her ability to do what she did, showed a level of human compassion and maybe even love that is definitely notable. Illyria/Fred is fascinating to me and so is Wesley's relationship to them. I also happen to be watching the end of season 5 again right now so I am particularly thinking about these issues.

Yes, Illyria has Fred's memories. She has Fred's memories of how she felt about Wesley, Spike, Gunn, Angel, ect.

[willowsummers]

Yes, but remembering and feeling are two different things. Illyria is her own person with her own pride and her own memories, but she seems to be able to share Fred's feelings as well as her memories. Maybe that's just how powerful our memories are, or maybe it's describing what our soul is like because I believe Fred's soul is IN Illyria.

[The Girl In Question]

^^Lol! I thought I told you to go watch the rest of Angel? Shame on you!

[The Girl In Question]

Ha ha. Very good then. I think you'll really enjoy it