The First = The Devil?

[rogue11]

The first was a master manipulator, shapeshifter, and cannot physically harm anyone.
This sounds like how the bible has made the devil sound like.
So is "the first" from season 7 really the devil?

[drgreenevil]

I have always thought this to.
And I hate it.

I hate it when authors and creators spend so much time and energy creating a really good protagonist, but then can't spend 2 seconds j3r%ing out atleast a somewhat original villain.
They make this really awesome hero then just say "and his enemy is the devil".
Seems like an enormous cop out. Other really good protagonists suffer from this to - Constantine, Spawn, heck even Bibleman fits in this catergory.
Plus your already fighting the biggest bad ever. Theres no where to go after that. Thats one of my issues with the Buffy comic series. The First is still there, and not going anywhere, yet it just fell off the face of the Earth for some reason deciding not to do anything.

In fact, since I never watched Buffy during its original run on tv, when people talked about the first, I thought they were talking about the first slayer. I would sit there and think "man the first slayer as a villain going around killing everyone, THATS AWESOME!!!!!".
If I ever write a Buffy fan fic, I'm gonna go rewrite season 7 where the big bad is the first slayer.

DrGreenEvil

[wenxina]

If by Devil, you mean Satan, then no, The First =/= The Devil. Caleb explicitly refers to Satan as a "little man" in "Dirty Girls"; a somewhat dismissive term. Considering his reverence for the First, Caleb wouldn't refer to It as "little", or any such diminutive term. It also hints that the First is much older than even Satan, considering the First is the birthplace of evil. The First would have to exist before any evil could exist. Thus, the First precedes Satan/Lucifer.

[drgreenevil]

Its one of those things that the show may say it wasn't but you can clearly see that it was the analogy they were going for.

[tkts]

Sept 28, 2009 1:55:13 GMT -5 drgreenevil said:

Its one of those things that the show may say it wasn't but you can clearly see that it was the analogy they were going for.

I don't know about that.

I mean, sure, in their respective mythologies, both characters are evil and deceptive. But those tend to be characteristics of villains. I think you would need a lot more in order to make a case that one is clearly an analogy for the other.

[rogue11]

Well wasn't satan around since God. Wasn't God the begining of everything so to have the first evil it would be the devil right? What could have possibly come before the devil?

[CowboyGuy]

In the Bible, Satan was at first one of God's first angels. He was not around since God was, he was created by God and later rebelled against him in primeval times. Cast down to Earth along with his followers who became what Christians would consider the first demons.

Now, if The First Evil was a real being in this equation, it would had to have been around BEFORE the creation of beings (angels, humans, etc). Because it is the thought and action of evil itself. It is evil, actual and absolute. It cannot be destroyed. It would have been the thing motivation Satan's rebellion against God in the first place. In biblical concepts, Satan will be destroyed during "Armageddon" which makes him ineligible of being The First Evil.

[tkts]

Sept 28, 2009 10:49:27 GMT -5 rogue11 said:

Well wasn't satan around since God. Wasn't God the begining of everything so to have the first evil it would be the devil right? What could have possibly come before the devil?

In Christian mythology, Satan is generally depicted as an angel who rebelled against God (although there are a lot of variations). This wouldn't negate the possibility of an earlier evil.

In any case, the Bible and the Buffyverse are two different works; events depicted in one work can't necessarily be assumed to be true in the other.

[wenxina]

Why are we drawing comparisons between the Bible and the Buffyverse? It's established early on that the mythology system is completely different. Giles states that instead of a paradise, Earth started out as a violent demon realm. This has been echoed several times in S7, Fray, and Angel.
The First precedes all evil, hence Its name. It is Evil... everything else is just an incarnation of Its will. It's primordial, older than even the Old Ones. As for the First being analogous to the Devil, it's only true if you view it through the Judeo/Christian-Islamic lens.

[Paul]

I always saw the First as the Buffyverse equivalent of the Devil, just because it was the Biggest Bad. Also because, I've heard that the Devil is supposed to be seductive and manipulative, which definitively characterises the First.

Whether the First gels with what it says in the Bible, who cares, because as Wenxina already said, the Buffyverse doesn't follow the mythology of the Bible.

[spurtyknowledge]

Attempting to mold the Buffyverse mythology into a Judeo-Christian structure, is bound to be a rather thin comparison, as Joss Whedon's humanist values certainly precede his forays into religious allegory. The First, to me, is Whedon's depiction of all the wrongdoing that mankind has inflicted on itself, and it might have been his way of questioning where this violence comes from. The First is far more representative of dominance over human will (to contrast with Buffy's ideals of individual freedom, equality, etc.) than some eternal struggle between absolute good and evil in the Bible. Not to mention that the moral ambiguity through which the Powers that Be worked in both Buffy and Angel, basically negates the notion that either series ever tried to do a God vs. Satan spiel.

As Xi mentioned, the Buffyverse mythology already deviates from the Judeo-Christian by the first episode of the series.

[dravenuk]

The Buffyverse isn't solely rooted in Judeo/Christian mythology but grabs bits and pieces from lots of myths and legends as well as inventing its own. The only obvious Christian stuff is the fact that the vamps fear the cross for some reason. But Satan himself doesn't seem to figure. And if he did he'd probably be just one of many demonic badboys from the many hell dimensions with others being possibly worse. The First was an invention of Joss and co. based upon the mythology they created for Buffy. How we as the audience interpret that is based upon all of our individual cultural influences.

[Paul]

Sept 28, 2009 18:37:10 GMT -5 dravenuk said:

The Buffyverse isn't solely rooted in Judeo/Christian mythology but grabs bits and pieces from lots of myths and legends as well as inventing its own. The only obvious Christian stuff is the fact that the vamps fear the cross for some reason. But Satan himself doesn't seem to figure. And if he did he'd probably be just one of many demonic badboys from the many hell dimensions with others being possibly worse. The First was an invention of Joss and co. based upon the mythology they created for Buffy. How we as the audience interpret that is based upon all of our individual cultural influences.

Karma for that nice rounded comment. ;D

[gumgnome]

The fact that in "Conversations with Dead People", Buffy tells Holden that nothing solid has been produced in favour of God's existence, aside from clearly being a little dig by Joss at Christians, certainly sugests that there is room for the Judeo-Christian mythology in the Buffyverse alongside various other mythologies. With the numerous dimensions etc. around in the Buffyverse, it seems that there could be room for all manner of supremely-powerful entities.

[rogue11]

interesting points made. Even if the Whedonverse doesn't focus primarily on christian mythology, whose to say that satan isn't included in that? I think in all kinds of beliefs systems, there exists the ideas of the great good being and the great bad being. so what if the first is the great bad being?

[wenxina]

The point is that it's been explicitly stated that the First =/= The Devil. That was your first inquiry, and it's been answered. The First is the first bad being. That much is explicit in Its name. Satan is not excluded from the realm of the evil here, but he isn't as big a bad as Judeo-Christian belief makes him out to be. He's just a "little guy". ;D

[snizapman6294]

in terms of modern religion, yes, the first could absolutely be seen as "the devil". in Catholicism, the devil was seen as the thing that created sin... in buffy, the first is the thing that created all evil.

but in the show, no.

[Tea - Total]

The first evil is the source and embodiment of all that is evil, true existence of sin.
The first is older then everything that was created, plus the first is in stoppable force, it can’t be killed unless all evil was gone, when evil stays, the first stays as well.

if i recall it stated on the show that the first evil is the source of an embodiment of all evil. Older than demons, even the Old Ones, it is older than the written word and transcends all realities and dimensions. The first evil is the first ever entity ever to have existed, its even lurked in the darkness long before the universe was even created and it shall never end even when the universe ends.
So the development of the first evil was excellent and the mythology of evil was deep, But to me i think the first evil has more potential, who agrees and what are your thoughts.

[gumgnome]

I'd just like to clarify that being older than the written word isn't actually that old - first writing appears in Mesopotamia about 8,000 years ago and is associated with the start of civilisation. Thus, vampires, demons, slayers are almost certainly older than the written word.

If the First is the embodiment of all evil, and you acknowledge that it probably wouldn't exist without evil in the world, then how can it exist before the universe. Was there some disembodied evil just hanging about in the void of nothingness? It strikes me that the First would need to have some vessel for evil to inhabit before it could truly exist. But then that becomes a chicken and egg argument, like the search for the beginning of existence is liable to become...

[Tea - Total]

Dec 5, 2009 5:22:55 GMT -5 gumgnome said:

I'd just like to clarify that being older than the written word isn't actually that old - first writing appears in Mesopotamia about 8,000 years ago and is associated with the start of civilisation. Thus, vampires, demons, slayers are almost certainly older than the written word.

If the First is the embodiment of all evil, and you acknowledge that it probably wouldn't exist without evil in the world, then how can it exist before the universe. Was there some disembodied evil just hanging about in the void of nothingness? It strikes me that the First would need to have some vessel for evil to inhabit before it could truly exist. But then that becomes a chicken and egg argument, like the search for the beginning of existence is liable to become...

The first evil is the source of an embodiment of all evil,
It quoted in the show
BUFFY
we don't know how to fight it. We
don't know when it'll come. Can't
run, can't hide... can't pretend it's
not the end 'cause it is. Something
has always been there to try and
destroy the world. We've beaten them
back, but we're not dealing with them
anymore. We're dealing with the
reason they exist. Evil. The
strongest. The First.
The quote, Indicate that the Buffy verse villains, was the reason their existed, so basically the first is their God, their creation.

Before the universe was even created and it shall never end even when the universe ends, if I recall did good exists first, because in the mythology of God, God was the creator of the universe so which indicates a chance that the first evil could represent the devil, which the first lurks in the darkness and shadow before universe was ever created. True existence of sin.