Normal Again; could it be real?

[Saturn 5]

Could Normal Again be real? Currently discussing it in greater detail on the Buffytube part of the forum. On the face of it it's impossible that Buffy is a mad girl in the asylum. Things happen in the Buffyverse that she never knows about. She makes cultural references that she couldn't know if she was locked up. What happens when's she's dead or trying to avoid her calling? How can Joyce and Hank (and Ford) exist in both her delusion and the 'real' world?

But think of the last scene in Buffy? Faith tells Buffy that she's going to have to live like a normal person from now on, Dawn asks what they're going to do now? The Hellmouth is closed, she can now share her responsibilities as a Slayer. She's defeated her demons and herself in the shape of the First. When the picture fades out is this actually asylum Buffy waking up sane again after 7 years?

Of course the alternate theory is that they're both real and that asylum Buffy does wake up sane after Chosen, the season 8 comics her dreams and the real world for Sunnydale Buffy?

[Mathieu]

I defended the theory of Buffy being crazy/insane for years. i'm sure you can find plenty of other threads related to this subject on this forum.

[Randi Giles]

How can you really define which world is the real and which is not? Though I believe that the Buffyworld(non-asylum) is the real one for all we know the Wishverse could be the real one. I think they all could be real in someway.

[henzINNIT]

It would imply that Buffy's incredibly active imagination was busy at work inventing stories for Angel as well, but it isn't impossible.

[gumgnome]

The cultural references arguments is the strongest I've heard against the idea of the asylum world being real. It doesn't seem possible that she could be totally catatonic and able to pick up pop culture references at the same time.

[Midnight Butterfly]

I believe that either could be real. The episode was a great idea.

[Skytteflickan88]

Dec 8, 2009 5:14:50 GMT -5 gumgnome said:

The cultural references arguments is the strongest I've heard against the idea of the asylum world being real. It doesn't seem possible that she could be totally catatonic and able to pick up pop culture references at the same time.

What is she made all the references up? Maybe in the non-asylum world, those movies and books didn't exist?

Or, her mom read her the entertainment section to her when she was crazy and she picked some up. Maybe the doctors talked about movies and her subconsience heard.

[gumgnome]

Dec 8, 2009 5:35:20 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

Dec 8, 2009 5:14:50 GMT -5 gumgnome said:

The cultural references arguments is the strongest I've heard against the idea of the asylum world being real. It doesn't seem possible that she could be totally catatonic and able to pick up pop culture references at the same time.

What is she made all the references up? Maybe in the non-asylum world, those movies and books didn't exist?

Or, her mom read her the entertainment section to her when she was crazy and she picked some up. Maybe the doctors talked about movies and her subconsience heard.

Surely, if the asylum world exists, it is our reality, which is why pop culture references that exist in our reality also exist in "Buffy". I think to suggest that she made the references up is a little far-fetched - would that suggest that both realities exist but are separate from our own?
The argument that she heard them while catatonic and reacted sub-consciously to them is more feasible and can't be ignored, although I think it seems quite unlikely that doctors would casually discuss the movie on TV last night, while treating a patient in a total state of catatonia. But the simpler explanation by far is that the Buffyverse is real. In the absence of better evidence, I would still opt for the simpler explanation.

[Saturn 5]

If I would have a choice I would say that they're both real and that post-Chosen asylum Buffy wakes up sane once more

[CourtneyDax]

I believe in the theory of alternate universes, like in Star Trek, so I think that both of these worlds can exist. If that means that Buffy is a strange girl who can shift her focus into two different realities, then so be it.

[tkts]

Dec 8, 2009 20:58:48 GMT -5 CourtneyDax said:

I believe in the theory of alternate universes, like in Star Trek, so I think that both of these worlds can exist. If that means that Buffy is a strange girl who can shift her focus into two different realities, then so be it.

Ah, yes, but are there shrimp in the other reality?

[Saturn 5]

They are and asylum Buffy enjoys them greatly after she regains her sanity at the end of Chosen, get's out of the hospital, goes back to her real life and starts writing the Buffy comics. Then she moves to Europe, marries Christian Slater and starts churning out grandkids for a delighted Hank and Joyce. She calls the first one Dawn, then Faith, Willow, Rupert and Alexander....

[mergedloki]

well ti's right that they could all be 'real' if you subscribe to the whole 'multiverse' theory. parallel worlds and the such.

but yea interesting idea that the whole 'buffy' thing is all in her head

[CourtneyDax]

Dec 9, 2009 1:25:51 GMT -5 tkts said:

Ah, yes, but are there shrimp in the other reality?

I'm 95% sure that both realities can acknowledge the existence of said shrimp.

[Saturn 5]

Dec 10, 2009 19:26:33 GMT -5 CourtneyDax said:

Dec 9, 2009 1:25:51 GMT -5 tkts said:

Ah, yes, but are there shrimp in the other reality?

I'm 95% sure that both realities can acknowledge the existence of said shrimp.

Of course 89% of statistics are made up on the spot!

[hellmouth]

I will say that Buffy was not crazy, the events that took place in Sunnydale with Buffy as the slayer were real. Why, I think the Angel spin-off proves it. Does it make sense that crazy Buffy would take the time to create all the associate Angel dillusion that happen completely independent of herself? I don't think so.

[buffyfan21]

Given my attachment to the Buffyverse, the world I have come to know, love, and associate myself with over several years, I am, of course going to say that the world in which Buffy is the slayer is indeed the real one. Do I think asylum Buffy could be real? Absolutely. Do I think she is? No. Of course, I am aware that I am more than a little biased here, but I much happier believing in the world I know as the real one for Buffy and Co. I think "Normal Again" was simply a very clever exercise on the part of Joss and Co to throw the audience a curve ball. It certainly gives us fans a lot to discuss and debate!

One argument I can come up with against asylum Buffy being real is this: no way, no how, would Buffy create an alternate reality in which her mother is dead. It just doesn't make sense. If this delusion was supposed to represent for Buffy the perfect world in which she gains comfort and acceptance, than Joyce would still be alive. I can think of no reason why Buffy would do away with her mother in her own fantasy version of life. The doc says she created Dawn to accommodate a need for a familial bond. If a familial bond was needed, while kill of her mom? Have her parents be divorced, etc? Not to mention all the other horrible things that happened in the Sunnydale world over the years. Certainly doesn't sound like an alternate reality someone would make for themselves! So, in a nutshell, given that things are so miserable and such horrible things had happened over time, the Sunnydale world has to be the real reality!

Dec 9, 2009 5:07:52 GMT -5 Saturn 5 said:

They are and asylum Buffy enjoys them greatly after she regains her sanity at the end of Chosen, get's out of the hospital, goes back to her real life and starts writing the Buffy comics. Then she moves to Europe, marries Christian Slater and starts churning out grandkids for a delighted Hank and Joyce. She calls the first one Dawn, then Faith, Willow, Rupert and Alexander....

[gumgnome]

Dec 13, 2009 14:59:44 GMT -5 buffyfan21 said:

One argument I can come up with against asylum Buffy being real is this: no way, no how, would Buffy create an alternate reality in which her mother is dead. It just doesn't make sense. If this delusion was supposed to represent for Buffy the perfect world in which she gains comfort and acceptance, than Joyce would still be alive. I can think of no reason why Buffy would do away with her mother in her own fantasy version of life. The doc says she created Dawn to accommodate a need for a familial bond. If a familial bond was needed, while kill of her mom? Have her parents be divorced, etc? Not to mention all the other horrible things that happened in the Sunnydale world over the years. Certainly doesn't sound like an alternate reality someone would make for themselves! So, in a nutshell, given that things are so miserable and such horrible things had happened over time, the Sunnydale world has to be the real reality!

I take your point, but the fact that her life has been going downhill is cleverly used as a reason for why she may be drifting away from it. Her feelings of escapism allow the asylum world to appear more tempting and attractive. I guess the "fantasy" Buffyverse is something that still develops organically inside her head, and her ability to forge a happy story for herself is limited.

[joxerlives]

Yeah, that was one of my original points, if Sunnydale is an escape for Buffy from the problems of the real world, why aren't things more pleasant for her?

Still, I'm happy that both are real and asylum Buffy is cured when Sunnydale is destroyed

[wenxina]

Dec 16, 2009 16:56:14 GMT -5 joxerlives said:

Yeah, that was one of my original points, if Sunnydale is an escape for Buffy from the problems of the real world, why aren't things more pleasant for her?

Still, I'm happy that both are real and asylum Buffy is cured when Sunnydale is destroyed

Things aren't more pleasant for her because that detracts from the messiah complex, which is what Asylum-Buffy was diagnosed with.
And explain how Asylum-Buffy would be cured after the end of Sunnydale. If the Slayer-Buffy is all made up in her head, one would argue that her fantasy just got even more elaborate, with her now being the figurehead of an international organization, with giant issues (pun intended) to iron out. Plus, now she has the entire world against her. To rise above all that... that's like messiah complex times ten.