Saturn 5
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 638
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Post by Saturn 5 on Dec 13, 2009 7:38:46 GMT -5
Got up to season 7 episode reviews on the Buffytube section of this forum (ONLY 22 left to go!) so for a more step by step version of this discussion go there. It strikes me season 7 is all about the Scoobs seeking redemption (although you could argue that of every season?).
Angel (ok yes he's in LA but he does show up for the end). Bumped into the wrong girl in the alley one night. Not culpabe for his actions as Angelus but even when he gets resouled he still kills humans, just sticking to criminals (like DarkWillow?). Kills several humans over the years although you could justify them all? Takes over WR&H and get's into some extremely grey areas in the final season of Angel. Throws it all away in the final episode
Verdict; undecided
Spike; also bumped into the wrong girl in an alley. Pure evil up until season 2 but keeps his word to Ford and sides with Buffy against Angelus at the end of the season and sides with her again in Lovers Walk, revealing the location of Willow and Xander. Chipped Spike alternatively helps and betrays the Scoobs when the mood takes him. When he thinks the chip isn't working he goes out to kill the first girl he meets although seems to psych himself up in order to do so. He helps Dru kill the young couple at the Bronze and even when he's having his affair with Buffy he is selling demon eggs as The Doctor.
Souled Spike by contrast is pure good, the people he kills under the First's influence not his fault. And eventually sacrifices himself to save the world
Verdict; good
Up next, Willow and Anya
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willowsummers
Respected Watcher
Quality time with Mr. Gordo?
Dabbling with magic[Mo0:9]
Posts: 579
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Post by willowsummers on Dec 13, 2009 10:59:06 GMT -5
Nobody in Buffy or Angel is always good. But that is what makes the show so realistic, so appealing to me, and the most touching. When the characters are good or they are hurt, it means more to me because they aren't always good. They don't have to be. We couldn't learn much from them if they were.
In both shows, Buffy, Willow, Tara, Fred and Lorne probably seem like the most good characters, but even they do things wrong. Buffy is so used to being right that sometimes she gets really high and mighty and can do hurtful things to people when she's like that. Willow went dark as we know and we saw what she was capable of. Tara was willing to change everyone's mind so they wouldn't see the real her. Fred tasered Connor and tried to kill that professor. Lorne hit two people if I remember correctly. I know he hit Eve.
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Post by buffyfan21 on Dec 13, 2009 12:19:04 GMT -5
Interesting topic. Can't wait to hear your take on Willow and Anya. That's one of the things I love about Joss. With his characters, be they white hats or villains, there is always moral gray area. Nothing in Joss' world is completely black and white, or cleanly split down the middle with clearly defined sides of good versus evil. Almost every character has been both good and bad at some point, and despite bad behavior, most of them have the ability to be good as well (well, Warren is one of the few characters in the verse whom, I would argue, is intrinsically evil. We never saw any good in him, any redeeming qualities, etc. At least I certainly didn't). I would argue that Spike and Angel are equally good and equally evil. One doesn't trump over the other in my view. Nobody in Buffy or Angel is always good. But that is what makes the show so realistic, so appealing to me, and the most touching. When the characters are good or they are hurt, it means more to me because they aren't always good. They don't have to be. We couldn't learn much from them if they were. 100% agree! ;D |
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The Girl In Question
Ensouled Vampire
Lumpy Space Princess
"It eats you starting with your bottom."[Mo0:33]
Posts: 1,674
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Post by The Girl In Question on Dec 17, 2009 18:19:20 GMT -5
Saturn 5 you should do Anya and Willow next  |
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Jaz ♀♀
Junior Vampire Slayer
Kisses & Gay Love
'Hey Lezallbefriendsbians!'[Mo0:30]
Posts: 941
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Post by Jaz ♀♀ on Dec 17, 2009 23:29:26 GMT -5
Nobody in Buffy or Angel is always good. But that is what makes the show so realistic, so appealing to me, and the most touching. When the characters are good or they are hurt, it means more to me because they aren't always good. They don't have to be. We couldn't learn much from them if they were. i agree with this as well...if they were innocent or perfect, how could we relate to them? the show would get boring way to fast if the characters stayed in a perfect two-dimensional state. Buffy- always the heroine and never doubting herself as the Slayer Willow- the innocent witch who would never abuse her power Xander- the guy who's always confident in himself Giles- the Watcher who knows everything and has no past that would be a horrible show if the characters were like that. |
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Post by buffyfan21 on Dec 18, 2009 0:23:14 GMT -5
Nobody in Buffy or Angel is always good. But that is what makes the show so realistic, so appealing to me, and the most touching. When the characters are good or they are hurt, it means more to me because they aren't always good. They don't have to be. We couldn't learn much from them if they were. i agree with this as well...if they were innocent or perfect, how could we relate to them? the show would get boring way to fast if the characters stayed in a perfect two-dimensional state. Buffy- always the heroine and never doubting herself as the Slayer Willow- the innocent witch who would never abuse her power Xander- the guy who's always confident in himself Giles- the Watcher who knows everything and has no past that would be a horrible show if the characters were like that. Agreed. I love that the characters are fallible and have flaws, makes them all the more human and relatable to me, not to mention all the more loveable. |
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Jaz ♀♀
Junior Vampire Slayer
Kisses & Gay Love
'Hey Lezallbefriendsbians!'[Mo0:30]
Posts: 941
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Post by Jaz ♀♀ on Dec 18, 2009 2:02:09 GMT -5
^^....definitely more loveable!  |
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Post by joxerlives on Dec 19, 2009 10:46:12 GMT -5
Anya;
Unlike virtually all the other scoobs she actually chooses to be a demon, purely because her boyfriend cheated on her. And what's more she chooses to be so again when Xander jilts her. She only really helps the scoobs because Xander is her boyfriend. And contrast the sort of punishments Anyanka deals out (mass murder) with those of Halfyrek (trapped in a house with Dawn, getting papercuts).
I think that's why it's so important that Anya remarks upon her growing love of humanity at the hospital and her geniuine mourning for Joyce. I think she was a work in process and by saving Andrew at the end she maybe earnt heaven?
Next up; Willow
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Post by Greer on Dec 20, 2009 10:57:25 GMT -5
Oh, Willow.
She's a hard one to figure out.
On the good side: In most of the seasons (even parts of 6), she is the constant researcher and helper. She is almost always constantly on the side of Buffy, following her blindly. She did good, because it was right and she wanted to help people. She stayed in Sunnydale because she wanted to help people and she wanted to fight evil(she really could've gone anywhere in the world). She was able to make the hard decisions in her personal life, with regard to Oz and Tara, without dragging either of them along for too long. She is respectful of most of Buffy's personal decisions, which is really hard for others to understand and accept.
On the bad side: Going chronologically, the first time we really see Willow doing anything "bad" is in Season 3 when her and Xander decide to cheat on their respective significant others, with one another. This was a little shocking to see at first, but not really surprising. It's very visible that Willow had been wanting Xander's attention for all of time, but he didn't notice her until she wasn't able to sit there and pine away for him. Although it was cheating, it never went further than kissing...and not to downplay it, but it was in high school. But it all worked out in the end...I suppose. Onto later in the series, she stayed kinda quiet on the bad front until she really began to get a high off the magic. A couple of the characters on the show brought it up to her (Tara, Giles, Anya), but there were ones that doubted she was having a problem(Xander). She really did try to not do the magics, but once Tara died, there was nothing to control her rage, so we all know what she did by killing Warren and trying to end the world. This was bad, I do understand. I just feel as though she was so unstable anyways, that she wouldn't be able to control her emotions, which are on hyper-drive while living on top of the Hellmouth. Following that whole catastrophe, she was completely broken. She had complete sorrow and shame for killing Warren, and she was remorseful. She was able to be rehabilitated, and was so scared of herself going dark again. I'm not excusing the murder, but she did realize that it was wrong and that she had to make up for it(unlike other characters at different times in the series; i.e. Anya, Spike, Giles, when they all murdered people, although they all have rationales for each of their situations). She was able to contribute to the greater fight in Season 7, even after the First entered her and when she opened the portal and went all black-haired. The only thing left is when she joined in the ganging-up on Buffy at the end of the series. Buffy would've never done that to them, but that's another issue for another time.
Final verdict? I still say that she's good. She may not be entirely innocent, but she's made the effort and tried vehemently to make up for her wrongs.
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willowsummers
Respected Watcher
Quality time with Mr. Gordo?
Dabbling with magic[Mo0:9]
Posts: 579
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Post by willowsummers on Dec 21, 2009 12:08:57 GMT -5
Willow is a very realistic character because the things she does good and bad are very similar to things we have to deal with on a daily basis. Buffy, Angel, Anya, Spike and other supernatural characters have to deal with much different things. Willow wants to help people, does research, sacrifices herself for others and when she does bad; she cheats, she wreaks vengence because someone she loves has been killed, she has an addiction problem and she lies to cover up something that will hurt people she cares about. These are very human, everyday things we can all relate to.
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zamolxis
Novice Witch
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 210 
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Post by zamolxis on Dec 21, 2009 23:56:39 GMT -5
On the bad side: Going chronologically, the first time we really see Willow doing anything "bad" is in Season 3 when her and Xander decide to cheat on their respective significant others, with one another. This was a little shocking to see at first, but not really surprising. It's very visible that Willow had been wanting Xander's attention for all of time, but he didn't notice her until she wasn't able to sit there and pine away for him. Although it was cheating, it never went further than kissing...and not to downplay it, but it was in high school. But it all worked out in the end...I suppose. It's not the cheating thing that's bad it's the easy way out she tried for the first time: the delusting spell, she is ready to alterate Xander feelings without his consent. Confronted with it, Willow lies and said that it's for chemistry lab. She already saw how bad a love spell could end, she knows she cannot match Amy's capabilities as a witch, but she try to do it anyway. |
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Post by Greer on Dec 22, 2009 19:43:34 GMT -5
On the bad side: Going chronologically, the first time we really see Willow doing anything "bad" is in Season 3 when her and Xander decide to cheat on their respective significant others, with one another. This was a little shocking to see at first, but not really surprising. It's very visible that Willow had been wanting Xander's attention for all of time, but he didn't notice her until she wasn't able to sit there and pine away for him. Although it was cheating, it never went further than kissing...and not to downplay it, but it was in high school. But it all worked out in the end...I suppose. It's not the cheating thing that's bad it's the easy way out she tried for the first time: the delusting spell, she is ready to alterate Xander feelings without his consent. Confronted with it, Willow lies and said that it's for chemistry lab. She already saw how bad a love spell could end, she knows she cannot match Amy's capabilities as a witch, but she try to do it anyway. Ooh, good point. I completely forgot about that de-lusting spell that she did. That makes me wonder why she has taken the easy way out, more than one time. Oh, Willow. |
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Post by buffyfan21 on Dec 22, 2009 23:00:55 GMT -5
It's not the cheating thing that's bad it's the easy way out she tried for the first time: the delusting spell, she is ready to alterate Xander feelings without his consent. Confronted with it, Willow lies and said that it's for chemistry lab. She already saw how bad a love spell could end, she knows she cannot match Amy's capabilities as a witch, but she try to do it anyway. Ooh, good point. I completely forgot about that de-lusting spell that she did. That makes me wonder why she has taken the easy way out, more than one time. Oh, Willow. I agree. We can see as far back as S3 that Willow is already using magic for an easy out, or, "to fix things to her liking," as Tara says to her later on. Even at this early point in the series, she would rather rely on magic than to deal with, and take responsibility for, what is right in front of her. In Willow's eyes, it is much easier to simply do a spell, forget, and move on. Now, don't get me wrong, I adore Willow. Like most of the characters she has done some bad things, but does that make her evil? Absolutely not. I would argue that the good Willow has done over the years is far greater than the bad. Sure, she has has made her share of mistakes, she's not perfect (no character in the verse is), but I would say Willow is predominately good at heart. I would certainly not label her as "evil." |
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Tea - Total
Bad Ass Wicca
?The hardest thing in this world is to ...live in it....? [Mo0:4]
Posts: 2,118
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Post by Tea - Total on Dec 24, 2009 9:48:39 GMT -5
I think every character has a dark theme to them and a light side to them also, which makes the show so realistic.
We have character going threw redemption,which makes the character appealing to the real world because half's this populations had an experience of redemption.
Also theirs some character with no heart and just pure sin, like for an example warren.
He was desirably evil, he had no remorse of his actions, but again, we have them characters in today society. Which was an realistic theme of the character.
But we have champions , protectors .
I Think every character is not all innocent which is a good thing because for that reason the show could be really boring, so if we relate to them of our own experience we will watch them go threw their path,which makes Buffy so appealing and realistic to the audience.
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Post by joxerlives on Dec 29, 2009 15:22:05 GMT -5
Ok, Willow, a girl who is by her standards 'very seldom naughty'
1. Cheats on Oz with Xander. But forgiveable, an affair of the heart
2. Get's addicted to magic and uses it to alter Tara's mind and then has sex with her whilst she's under it's influence. Arguably this is rape and it's a measure of tara's humanity that she can forgive her
3. Kills Wrack and Warren, tries to kill Jonathon and Andrew, tries to destroy the world.
Now you can justify her killing Wrack and Warren who are both bad guys. The sadistic manner in which she tortures Warren first is harder to take. When she threatens and mocks Dawn then you know that she's so far gone. As for her destroying the world, I guess you have to argue she's overwhelmed by the darkness at this stage.
But she does help save the world in season 7. All told I think we can forgive Willow her sins but I would LOVE to see a face off between her and Warren (and Amy?) in the comics
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