CONVERSATIONS WITH DEAD PEOPLE-truth and terror

[joxerlives]

CONVERSATIONS WITH DEAD PEOPLE
The Good;
All of it, pretty damn amazing the whole thing. In a pretty intense and serious episode I do like Dawn's fun anchovies song and dance not to mention her marhsmallow in the microwave (love to try that but then it didn't turn out too well for her)
The Bad;
The only problems I have is that there's no Xander and that the Cassie role was so blatantly supposed to be Tara. If it is The First that visits Dawn it's actions seem remarkably tame AND it seems to be able to move stuff with it's will which it can't do later. Also why put on the big show, why not just appear to Dawn as it did to Willow and Andrew? Maybe it is Joyce but the First is somehow manipulating her and only allows it to put over what it wants Dawn to hear? If it is The First trying to mislead Dawn why does it try to get her to leave the house?
Best line;
Holden; "Who knows, maybe I'll win?"
Buffy; (almost pityingly) "No, I'm the Slayer. You're not leaving this graveyard"
Women good/men bad;
We learn that Hank cheated on Joyce and that was the reason for their divorce.
Jeez!;
Holden hitting Buffy in the face with the virgin Mary statuette. Dawn getting all cut up. Cassie/The First's description of how she imagined Willow committing suicide.
Kinky dinky;
When confessing to Holden Buffy says that during her sex with Spike she felt she deserved to be punished which explains some of the violent/S&M nature of their relationship. Buffy says she hates the way vamps equate sex, pain, death and love but then as Spike said, they are evil, they should be treading on the darkside. Looking back on her previous boyfriends Buffy observes she sure can pick them, every one a doomed romance. There were rumours at SDH that Buffy was dating a really old guy but did this mean Angel or Giles? ("Older man, very handsome, likes it when I call him daddy") Holden says he is 'chatting Buffy up'. Spike effortlessly picks a hot blonde up at the bar. Buffy refers to Spike 'taking me over completely' and 'doing such things to me'. Holden refers to guy talk in 'nailing a girl'.
Captain Subtext;
So if Spike sires his blonde after picking her up in a bar does he do the same thing with Holden? Buffy confesses she feels superior to her friends and lovers but feels guilty about it. This suggests that Faith is actually the ideal girl for her as they're equal in every way. Scott Hope, Buffy's boyfriend from season 3 has now come out of the closet which must be a relief for her as it means their break up wasn't her fault. But apparently he told everyone she was gay which given her track record with guys might be the best option for her?
Note that Jonathon and Andrew actually want to be part of the Scooby gang which Andrew at least will achieve.
Guantanamo Bay;
Scoobies to the ER;
Missing scenes;
Supposedly we were to see Xander visited by Jesse and Anya by Halfrek but they couldn't get the actors which was a great shame.
Apocalypses; 7,
Wheldon Cliches (with kind permission from Boo)

Scoobies in bondage:
Buffy: 8
Giles: 4
Cordy: 5
Will: 4
Jenny: 1
Angel: 4
Oz: 1
Faith: 3
Joyce: 1
Wes: 1
Xander; 2
Dawn; 4

Scoobies knocked out:
Buffy: 19
Giles: 12
Cordy: 6
Xander: 14
Will: 8
Jenny: 2
Angel: 6
Oz: 3
Faith: 1
Joyce: 3
Wes: 1
Anya;5
Dawn; 4
Tara; 1
Kills: Buffy kills 1 vamp
Buffy: 110 vamps, 60 demons, 6 monsters, 3 humans, 1 werewolf, 1 spirit warrior & a robot
Giles: 8 vamps, 2 demon, 1 human, 1 god.
Cordy: 3 vamps, ½ a demon
Will: 6 vamps + 3 demons +1 fawn+1 human.
Angel: 3 vamps, 1 demon, 1 human
Oz: 3 vamps, 1 zombie
Faith: 16 vamps, 5 demons, 3 humans
Xander: 6 vamps, 2 zombies, 1½ a demon,
Anya: 1 vamp and 1½ a demon
Riley; 18 vamps + 7 demons
Spike; 8 vamps and 6 demons
Buffybot; 2 vamps
Tara; 1 demon
Dawn; 1 vamp + 1 demon

Scoobies go evil:
Giles: 1
Cordy: 1
Will: 3
Jenny: 1
Angel: 1
Oz: 1
Joyce: 1
Xander: 4
Anya; 1
Dawn; 1
Buffy; 1

Alternate scoobies:
Buffy: 8
Giles: 4
Cordy: 1
Will: 5
Jenny: 2
Angel: 3
Oz: 2
Joyce: 2
Xander: 4
Tara; 1
Dawn;1
Spike; 1
Anya; 2

Recurring characters killed: 13 byebye Jonathon, with us from the untransmitted pilot who came good in the end.
Jesse, Flutie, Jenny, Kendra, Larry, Snyder, Professor Walsh, Forrest, McNamara, Joyce, Katrina, Tara, Jonathon

Sunnydale deaths; Jonathon and Spike's victim
101

Total number of scoobies: 6,
Xander, Buffy, Dawn, Willow, Anya, Spike

Xander demon magnet: 5(6?)
Preying Mantis Lady, Inca Mummy Girl, Drusilla, VampWillow, Anya (arguably Buffy & Faith with their demon essences?), Dracula?

Scoobies shot:
Giles: 2
Angel: 3
Oz: 4
Riley; 1
Buffy; 1
Tara; 1

Notches on Scooby bedpost:
Giles: 2; Joyce & Olivia, possibly Jenny and 3xDraccy babes?
Cordy: 1?
Buffy: 4 confirmed; Angel, Parker, Riley, Spike. 2 possible, Dracula+RJ(?)
Angel: 1;Buffy
Joyce: 1;Giles, 2 possible, Ted and Dracula(?)
Oz: 3; Groupie, Willow & Verucca
Faith:2 ;Xander, Riley
Xander: 2; Faith, Anya
Willow: 2;Oz and Tara
Riley; 3; Buffy, Sandy and unnamed vampwhore
Spike; 2 Buffy and Anya
Anya; 2 Spike and Xander
Dawn in peril; 13 once again but this time she deals with it herself
Dawn the bashful virgin; 9
What the fanficcers thought;
Loads of fic where Joyce's real ghost visits both Dawn and Buffy, how wonderful if we could see the mother we loved and lost again if only for a minute. Interesting to see Dawn in Ash from Evil Dead mode, once read a fic where Tara's family are actually Texas Chainsaw Massacre types and kill everyone in the season 5 Scoobies except for Tara, Riley, Willow and Dawn. However when Tara and Willow ressurect Buffy she finds that Dawn has now turned into a combination of Ash/Lara Croft (but still has both hands). Meanwhile Faith defeated the First and shared her power with the Potentials but was presumed to have perished in the collapsing the Hellmouth. But whose is that gorgeous female hand holding a scythe breaking the surface at the Sunnydale crater...?
Questions and observations;
I take it that the Dartmouth Holden refers to is a college in the US rather than the town in Devon? By the commentary we know that it isn't really Joyce who visits Dawn but her warning that Buffy wouldn't choose Dawn in the end turns out to be prophetic. Dawn's battle with The First(?) references The Excorcist, Die Hard (glass in feet), The Shining, The Amityville Horror, Poltergeist, Highlander and especially the Evil Dead films . Andrew says he found Klingon easier to learn than Spanish but then as an artificial language it would be simpler. 'Insane troll logic' again. Kit from 'Lessons' reccurs although offscreen. Someone in the Summer's house likes Mariarchi music as it was also on their radio in 'Quelled'. Lovely music at the Bronze, is that the same band as in Dopplegangland? Is Jason Wheeler the guy who won the class clown award in The Prom? Holden has studied 2 years of Tae-Kwan-Do which is SMG's martial art. Buffy refuses to commit on the God question despite the effects of crosses and holy water on vamps. Considering how much real horror there is in Dawn's life you'd wonder that she watches a horror film? JE refers disparagingly to Charmed on the commentary. Holden refers to the SD mental hospital which was presumably built after season 5.
Both Spike and his date smoke in a bar which I didn't think you could do in California. Buffy still suffers from the Slayer deathwish to a degree to judge from some of the things she says.
How old is Buffy? Holden says she's 21 but if she's 15 in season 1 surely she's 22/23 now? The girl Spike picks up in the bar reminds me a lot of Christina Applegate. Holden seems to be a remarkably human vampire but then people sired by Spike and Dru always seem to be. So this was filmed in a real graveyard? I'm not sure I'd like my loved one's grave used as a prop in a TV series, especially with Holden sitting on it? Dawn can do magic, living with Tara and Willow all those years must have paid off.
Apparently they had to cut 9 minutes off this ep. WHY can't we have Buffy Special Edition DVDs with all this footage restored and commentaries for all the eps?
Marks out of 10; 9/10, only failing to be 10/10 due to no Xander and no Tara. This one I watched 4 times, twice with the commentary.

[emanuele]

"Him" which is a filler episode got a 10/10 and CWDP got a 9/10 because it has no Tara? I actually respect Amber for not wanting to be The First in S7.

[joxerlives]

Him is filler but it's BRILLIANTfiller! CWDP, is great but it's so obvious that this should be Amber. I mean if Joyce can come back one last time wouldn't it have been great to see Tara one last time?

[Randi Giles]

"Him" was a good episode I wouldn't go as far as saying it was brilliant(10/10), but definitely some good laughs. Though I do agree Amber should have been in this episode I understand why she wasn't. Even though Xander wasn't in this episode and I love him so much he really wouldn't have fit in this episode unless Jesse came back as the first, which was one thing I kind of wished for this episode. Besides I think Cassie was a great filler. So basically rather this episode had Tara and Xander or not overall it wasn BRILLIANT! 10/10

BTW I still don't know if Joyec was suppose to be the first or not. Does anybody else?

[Randi Giles]

Hmm, now that I think about it it I don't think I listened to the commentary for this episode. Oops. I'm going to check that out. As far as why Amber turning down being Tara/First I have to say I completely agreed with her reason. It really would have been a tease for us. Thank EWR. Karma.

[zamolxis]

Besides I think Cassie was a great filler

Buffy learned in Help that she won't be able to save everyone.

[joxerlives]

Very true. As for Joyce it's left ambiguous in the script but Jane clears it up in the commentary, unfortunately

[Rebecca]

Personally, I would have LOVED to see Tara as a bad guy. Amber never plays those roles, and I don't think the fans would love Tara any less had Amber appeared in CWDP.

[jellymoff]

Dec 22, 2009 18:55:31 GMT -5 Rebecca said:

Personally, I would have LOVED to see Tara as a bad guy. Amber never plays those roles, and I don't think the fans would love Tara any less had Amber appeared in CWDP.

I totally disagree Cassie being good in the role. They should have had someone that in some way was signifigant to Willow. I can't beleive that she would not be totally sketched out by some "Message from the beyond" from some chick she never met.

[Rebecca]

Dec 22, 2009 19:22:21 GMT -5 jellymoff said:

Dec 22, 2009 18:55:31 GMT -5 Rebecca said:

Personally, I would have LOVED to see Tara as a bad guy. Amber never plays those roles, and I don't think the fans would love Tara any less had Amber appeared in CWDP.

I totally disagree Cassie being good in the role. They should have had someone that in some way was signifigant to Willow. I can't beleive that she would not be totally sketched out by some "Message from the beyond" from some chick she never met.

Sure, but who?

After Amber pulled out and Tara impossible to use, what deceased person could the writers use in her place that could possibly fill the role adequately?

[Randi Giles]

Dec 22, 2009 20:21:26 GMT -5 Rebecca said:

Dec 22, 2009 19:22:21 GMT -5 jellymoff said:

I totally disagree Cassie being good in the role. They should have had someone that in some way was signifigant to Willow. I can't beleive that she would not be totally sketched out by some "Message from the beyond" from some chick she never met.

Sure, but who?

After Amber pulled out and Tara impossible to use, what deceased person could the writers use in her place that could possibly fill the role adequately?

I can't think of anybody either. That's why though I would have love for Tara to come back, Cassie wasn't a bad last minute choice. When she started getting all evil and obviously the First, I thought it was good.

[joxerlives]

Jesse springs to mind? Jenny Calender too but she's already been portrayed by The First. Loved to have seen Tara although Cassie does a good job

[Randi Giles]

Dec 23, 2009 16:15:42 GMT -5 joxerlives said:

Jesse springs to mind? Jenny Calender too but she's already been portrayed by The First. Loved to have seen Tara although Cassie does a good job

If Jesse came back as the first it only would have worked with Xander. And of course Jenny for GIles.

[Jaz ♀♀]

I think Tara would have been the perfect and only choice for Willow. Cassie did a great job and I remember the first time seeing it and in the beginning actually believing Willow was talking to Tara, i remember those scenes completely brought me to tears. Especially hearing Cassie/The First telling Willow the private moments Willow and Tara shared (Strong like an Amazon). The fact that the scenes were simply just Willow and Cassie and not having Tara in it at all and it still having it bring me to tears, omg I can't even imagine how harder the impact it would have on me if I really did see Tara there. As a hardcore Willow/Tara fan, it would have been beyond torture to then realize that it was the First and not Tara talking to Willow. At least with Cassie, for me, the pain of Willow not talking to Tara was a lot less.

So if Amber did come back and Joss's plan was to torture us Willow/Tara fans with heartbreak of seeing Tara as the First, it would have been an even more definite success....I don't think I would have liked it (because of my reasons above) but I won't be ignorant to the fact that I do honestly believe it would have been an even better heart-wrenching scene to have seen than with Willow and Cassie.

[CourtneyDax]

Dec 20, 2009 6:40:05 GMT -5 joxerlives said:

Interesting to see Dawn in Ash from Evil Dead mode, once read a fic where Tara's family are actually Texas Chainsaw Massacre types and kill everyone in the season 5 Scoobies except for Tara, Riley, Willow and Dawn. However when Tara and Willow ressurect Buffy she finds that Dawn has now turned into a combination of Ash/Lara Croft (but still has both hands). Meanwhile Faith defeated the First and shared her power with the Potentials but was presumed to have perished in the collapsing the Hellmouth. But whose is that gorgeous female hand holding a scythe breaking the surface at the Sunnydale crater...?

I've read that fic before (and LOVED IT) but I always thought that it ended with the idea of Dawn and Riley getting together and Will and Tara being farmers. Is there a sequel fic out there??

[Greer]

I really do wish that Tara would've come back for it. It would've been absolutely the worst scene to watch, worse than when Buffy finds Joyce and says "Mommy?"(and that kills me). I feel like Joss could've pushed it to that point, and made it beautifully tragic. I know that there is talk of disrespect to the great relationship that they had, but I'd like to quote D'Hoffryn and say "Go for the pain". It would've been an even larger impact if she would've been there. I wish that Jenny would've appeared to Giles, as that would've been equally heartbreaking. I do adore this episode, but I know they could've gotten more people.

[henzINNIT]

Honestly, I don't get the love for this episode. It's certainly not bad, but it stinks of an episode that is supposed to be a key episode that was thrown together in a rush.

Buffy's scenes are vital and brilliant. The rest are not.

Spike's trigger situation is an effective shocker but fairly pointless in the scheme of things.
Dawn's scenes with Joyce/First are confusing and later unresolved.
The nerds return with a great set-up for the seal and the hellmouth which sadly goes unexplained later on.
The Cassie scene is nice but she's an obvious temp after Benson declined (shame).
I am disappointed that Anya and Xander got shafted, as the ideas for their stories were interesting.

[joxerlives]

Dec 27, 2009 3:03:35 GMT -5 CourtneyDax said:

Dec 20, 2009 6:40:05 GMT -5 joxerlives said:

Interesting to see Dawn in Ash from Evil Dead mode, once read a fic where Tara's family are actually Texas Chainsaw Massacre types and kill everyone in the season 5 Scoobies except for Tara, Riley, Willow and Dawn. However when Tara and Willow ressurect Buffy she finds that Dawn has now turned into a combination of Ash/Lara Croft (but still has both hands). Meanwhile Faith defeated the First and shared her power with the Potentials but was presumed to have perished in the collapsing the Hellmouth. But whose is that gorgeous female hand holding a scythe breaking the surface at the Sunnydale crater...?

I've read that fic before (and LOVED IT) but I always thought that it ended with the idea of Dawn and Riley getting together and Will and Tara being farmers. Is there a sequel fic out there??

I THINK it's one of the Googlecaptain's happy sequals. Let me leaf through her stuff and I'll PM you with the link. Help me out, where did you read the original story?

[buffyfan21]

I would have loved to see Tara/Amber return for CWDP. I think it would have been interesting to see her play that more villainous role. At the same time I really liked Cassie's character also, so it great to see her back as well. Plus, it was probably a lot easier to see Cassie as The First terrorizing Willow, rather than having Tara as The First being so mean to her. I really don't think I would have wanted my last image of Tara on the series to be as someone evil, but on the other hand, it would have been neat to see her in a different way. Yes, a part of me wishes it had been Tara, but I think the episode turned out pretty awesome even without her. Definitely one of my faves.