kaan
Common Vampire
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Post by kaan on Jun 7, 2010 12:10:13 GMT -5
I didn't. It was Dorotea who referenced him to highlight the possibility of Twilight being a good guy. This is what you said: That sounded to me like you believed him, and are now irritated that he may have lied. For the record I probably believe he was telling the truth to, but if it turns out he wasn't then it wouldn't worry me. He is a demon after all. I'm not going to dig up the quote but they were said there will be flashbacks. Well, he wasn't completely shameless in S7 yeah. How on earth do you track that S8 is gonna end in happy Bangel-land? When has Buffy EVER ended like that? 'Pandering' to ones audience just for the sake of 'pandering', which to me is what your suggesting (ever consider it might be what Joss wants to do with his own characters and story?) must then take into account the opinions of fans on these matters. Do you really believe Joss seriously listens to his fans on the shipping issue? Or any issue for that matter? Who would he listen to? Spuffies, Bangel's, Bander's, Biley's? There is fan service, yes, and their opinions can help shape what a creator does, but they do not dictate what one does. If at the end of S9 or S10 Buffy rides off in the sunset with a Shanshu'd Angel, it will be because thats how Joss wants to end it. Not because he is 'pandering' to one segment of his audience.
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moscowwatcher
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You're the one, Buffy[Mo0:0]
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Post by moscowwatcher on Jun 7, 2010 13:20:35 GMT -5
It's the narrative per se that irritates me. Nobody can be trusted. Everything may be - or may be not - a lie. Three years have passed and with every new issue the situation becomes more and more incomprehensible, especially from a moral standpoint.
Cool. Looking forward to them.
It's already ended in Bangel-land. They're each other's true loves. He's the yin to her yang. Everybody knows that. Even Angel's apocalyptic behavior can't change Buffy's eternal love for him, let alone her pesky relationships with other people - former lovers or friends he wanted her to forget.
Of course, by the end of Joss' arc they will be forced to part ways, because Angel has to return to his own series. But they will part on "maybe some day" soul-matey promise.
Okay, Joss made the season all.about.Bangel because he believes that it's the right character development. No pandering. Just the creator's urge to end the story the way he thinks is the bestest.
Still, frustrating. Sorry if my frustration offends you.
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veiriti
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Post by veiriti on Jun 7, 2010 14:25:57 GMT -5
Hee, hee, Moscow, I’d love Spike to kick Angel’s butt! It doesn’t matter it’s in the middle of the apocalypse. And who brings this Apocalypse?! Angel! Who tried to trap Buffy in his twilight zone forever? Angel. Who killed all these people? Angel. Who killed those slayers? Angel again. So, his a** deserves to being kicked. ;D Sorry, but it sounds too cheesy! Joss is not such cheesy author as S. Meyer is. I do not believe Angel's Buffy's "one and only" love! I do not believe she should end up with him. The flying Bangel sex was Joss's "last gift" to the Bangels fans. “Last Gleaming” (Twilight’s Last Gleaming?) suggests the end of Twilight as Spike promised on issue 35 to end "this twilight crap." And that doesn’t sounds well for a certain relationship, connected with the “twilight zone” . I hope so! I haven’t many hopes for Spuffy happy ending, but I’d love to see the end of the Bangelight crap! ;D p.s And Shanshu is possible to be for Spike, not for Angel. It would be funny and absolutely in Joss's style Spike to gets the Shanshu in the end!
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kaan
Common Vampire
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Posts: 78
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Post by kaan on Jun 7, 2010 15:29:51 GMT -5
It's already ended in Bangel-land. They're each other's true loves. He's the yin to her yang. Everybody knows that. I think your being sarcastic here, but what you say is true in a storytelling construct. Every relationship Buffy has will be compared, by her, to her relationship with Angel. This universe is one big melodrama and Buffy and Angel will forever be the Romeo and Juliet of the 'verse. Do you think that if Angel had been around without his pesky curse at ANY TIME during Buffy's run that she wouldn't be with him? That really remains to be seen with what she does in the next arc, but your probably right, Buffy will always love Angel no matter what. She does not, however, love him enough to abandon her friends and family to live forever in Bangel bliss, so her love does have limits. Maybe, if Joss wants to retread over familiar ground. And realistically the characters demand that, because again Buffy will always love Angel and he will always love her. All of that doesn't rule out, or lessen, any other relationships Buffy may or may not have. Well to me Bangel, by definition, means the Buffy/Angel romantic relationship, and beside the last three issues it hasn't been about them at all. And in one of those issues Buffy rejects Angel ( for the very first time? [EDIT: Forgot about the rejection in Chosen]). So you should be happier. Spike is back next issue. Joss is writing again (the same guy that gave you the church scene in Beneath You, as well as those flamey hands in your avatar) and Angel will be back to his own series and out of Buffy's life once again come season's end. There isn't any offence felt. Or directed back at you. This is the internet after all, and if something as trivial as all this offends anyone then they shouldn't really be on a computer. It's just that whenever shipping comes up the argument almost always degrades into a personal one, and I try to argue points impersonally based on the material as I see it. It's all about having fun and relieving the boredom for a few minutes. Sorry, but it sounds too cheesy! Joss is not such cheesy author as S. Meyer is. I do not believe Angel's Buffy's "one and only" love! Oh yeah, of course that would be a completely crap ending. One I hope we'll never see. Angel is not Buffy's "one and only" love, but he is "one" of hers. One that she isn't fully over yet, and I believe never will be. And again, that doesn't reflect on her other relationships, but it is a part of her character and one people shouldn't just ignore because they ship someone else.
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moscowwatcher
Potential Slayer
You're the one, Buffy[Mo0:0]
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Post by moscowwatcher on Jun 7, 2010 16:17:33 GMT -5
cough"I Will Remember You"cough
I don't recognize this Buffy and especially this Angel, who suddenly doesn't give a damn about humanity as long as he can live with Buffy in their paradise. And I'm afraid that writers will change Spike's personalyty as radically as they have changed Angel's. I understand that the story needs these kind of characters - deluded and corrupted by power - but why couldn't Joss use original characters? "The Chain" is brilliant. It's the only comic that made me cry.
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kaan
Common Vampire
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Post by kaan on Jun 7, 2010 17:16:06 GMT -5
cough"I Will Remember You"cough Ummmmm, do you remember that episode? Buffy DID want to be with him. It was Angel that made the decision to reset time. Buffy broke down and said she would never forget. Great, tragic stuff there...
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moscowwatcher
Potential Slayer
You're the one, Buffy[Mo0:0]
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Post by moscowwatcher on Jun 7, 2010 18:18:09 GMT -5
Exactly. Angel's decision. He didn't have the curse and she wouldn't be with him, because he had chosen to get back his curse.
Yet 10 years later he conspires behind Buffy's back to create the "magic pull" to make her have sex with him. And Buffy loves him so much that she doesn't mind being drugged with "magic glow" that makes her epically horny.
It just doesn't make sense to me. If Angel knew that Buffy was in danger why didn't he warn her? Why did he act behind her back? Was he under the influence from the very beginning? Was he under the influence when he asked Buffy to forget about her friends?
I will be very happy if we'll get any clarification. But I'm afraid we won't. My impression is that it's just a poorly constructed plot. Meltzer said that the sex issue was written before the first issue was on sale; everything that happened in the first issues was just a build-up for sex, ploys to raise the tension between lovers. That's why I say that the season is all.about.Bangel.
Sorry for the rant.
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kaan
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Post by kaan on Jun 7, 2010 22:04:07 GMT -5
Exactly. Angel's decision. He didn't have the curse and she wouldn't be with him, because he had chosen to get back his curse. He didn't have the curse and she was with him. Then she couldn't be with him because Angel made the choice himself to become a vampire again, so he could have the strength to continue in the fight, and hence that old damn curse is once again a factor. She desperately wanted to continue to be with him. This episode is one of the biggest pro-Bangel episodes in the entire 'verse. Did you read #34 and #35? One of the things it stresses, (whether it was written well or not), is that there is some higher power or 'universe' urging them on. Now you can view that as some kind of control/rape metaphor or maybe a breaking down of barriers to their true wants and feelings. Whatever, people are going to see it how they want. Also BUFFY initiates the sex. There is no evidence that Angel's plan from the beginning was simply sex with Buffy. Angel seemed just as amazed by what they'd done as Buffy was. Once the sex was over, and the "magic glow" had worn off, Buffy wasn't exactly upset or outraged about the sex. Embarrassed maybe, and disturbed by what their coupling had brought down upon her family and friends, but it didn't look as though she regretted the actual act itself. I hope some of these questions get answered to. I suspect Meltzer meant either he wrote that before the first issue of his arc, or that they always knew from the very beginning that issue #34 would be the porn issue. It doesn't really matter. This is common is fiction. J.K. Rowling wrote the final chapter of the Harry Potter series waaay before the last book. Go back and re-read S8 again up till the Twilight arc. There is no build up of tension between lovers re:Bangel. It only states Buffy is lonely and missing the sex. Then there is the Buffy/Satsu fling and then the X/B/D kinda-triangle. Why #34 was such a shock was precisely because there was no build up between Buffy and Angel. It was literally in half an issue: Twilight unmasked->ZOMG it's Angel->Buffy tries to kill Angel->Angel and/or the 'Universe/Twilight/Whatever' convinces her to search out her own inner feelings->BOOM with the sex. I always found it funny how before they spoiled the whole Twilight is Angel thing months in advance, one of the key criticism of S8 was that 'Twilight' was a pretty weak Big Bad who hadn't really done much all season. As soon as it was revealed it was Angel, it turned into "LOOK, LOOK HOW BAD HE IS!!!"
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jun 7, 2010 23:22:34 GMT -5
He WAS a pretty weak Big Bad, right up until the "Retreat" arc. In the last two arcs, he became by far the most effective villain in the history of the Buffyverse. Nobody else has ever succeeded in killing and hurting so many people so close to Buffy. And now, the world is ending because of him. Angelus, Glory, Dark Willow, and the First Evil never got this far.
Which is why her having sex with him under these circumstances is repulsive in the extreme.
If the universe's urging was the only reason she had sex with Angel, then I'd kinda like to see her more realistically upset at being forced to have sex against her will with a man who, according to her own stated beliefs, just murdered 200 of her friends.
If it wasn't the only reason, then she made a disgustingly uncaring, selfish, inexplicable, and out-of-character decision.
I'd like to believe that Willow was right, and the universe's influence was the only reason Buffy was boffing Angel instead of trying to kill him, as she should have been doing. But her actions afterwards don't indicate that at all. ("I really did miss you..." Yeah, Buff. There's a lot of people missing their 206 dead friends and family members, too. Yeesh.)
Others will have their own opinions, but for me Buffy was greatly diminished as a character by #34, partly (but not fully) redeemed by her actions in #35, and Angel is still a villain... whether he remains one or not depends on how he deals with what he's done.
Buffy is in need of a severe tongue-lashing (and not the good kind) from... well, just about everybody she knows.
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kaan
Common Vampire
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Post by kaan on Jun 8, 2010 1:22:12 GMT -5
He WAS a pretty weak Big Bad, right up until the "Retreat" arc. In the last two arcs, he became by far the most effective villain in the history of the Buffyverse. Nobody else has ever succeeded in killing and hurting so many people so close to Buffy. And now, the world is ending because of him. Angelus, Glory, Dark Willow, and the First Evil never got this far. Yeah, well in "Retreat" he was kinda doing exactly what he'd been doing all season: standing around watching. But he didn't do anything to stop the army or goddesses Buffy and Willow released, so that was pretty bad. As for "Retreat", besides acting completely loony-tunes crazy, the baddest thing he did was smash Faith's face open. Pretty bad, but he felt remorse straight after. These 206 dead slayers. Point me to the panel showing Twilight killing them please. Or ordering them killed. Or ANY evidence he was involved at all. I'm not saying he wasn't but no-one right now can say he absolutely was responsible because there is 0% evidence of it in the text. This, I think, is really a personal question. People will either see this whole 'urging' on thing as non-consensual sex or not. I don't think it was the only reason Buffy had sex with him, because that would require a stance that it did not matter who Twilight was and Buffy would still have slept with him. It wouldn't matter if it was Andrew or Parker under the mask. Which I don't believe. Only three people I could realistically see Buffy sleeping with at that moment: Angel, Spike or Xander. Because those sexual urges, those emotional tug-strings are already there, and all the 'universe' did was push them so far to the forefront, Buffy lost all self-control. Again with those 206. Buffy confronts him with that number and Angel says he didn't kill anyone. And a bunch other 'cryptic crap'. Now, do I believe him? I don't know. I'll wait to see the final arc before ruling on Angel. Should anyone other than Buffy who is in that same position believe him? No. Should Buffy had tried to continue to stake him, and when that didn't work demand again to explain himself properly? Definitely. But Buffy does believe him, or the 'universe' forces down all her reservations and she 'feels him' inside her. Could she unconsciously 'feel' exactly what angle Angel has been coming from? Who knows. They are 'connected', becoming 'one' entity as they frak and create the TwilightZone. Just because I try to understand/comprehend/fanwank Angel as something other than a irredeemable monster for what he has done in S8, doesn't mean I'm all cool with it either. I pretty much agree with you here. Buffy wasn't as greatly diminished to me as you have felt, but I did think the sex was a bad move. People were upset because Angel wasn't explained or whitewashed or whatever in #35 and I never thought or wanted that to happen. I want him to have a really hard time going forward. To answer some tough questions. You could, and have, argued how many chances does one guy get before it becomes a fool's game: I want this to be his last one. There's great drama in that. Well Willow seemed to be filling that need even in #35. It's a start. But if all this has to do with this 'universe' malarkey, then exactly how responsible is Angel and Buffy for their actions? Is Giles responsible for not telling Buffy about a Watcher myth? All good questions...
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jun 8, 2010 7:42:58 GMT -5
These 206 dead slayers. Point me to the panel showing Twilight killing them please. Or ordering them killed. Or ANY evidence he was involved at all. I'm not saying he wasn't but no-one right now can say he absolutely was responsible because there is 0% evidence of it in the text. It looks like the majority of those 206 were killed in the two big battles... the one in Scotland, just before they teleported away in the submarine, and then the one in Tibet. In both cases, those were Twilight's troops killing Slayers, under his direct oversight and orders. Yeah, he was trying to get his own soldiers killed too... which is no better, since they were just regular soldiers who thought they were fighting for their country. And he's responsible for the 7 who died in the missile strike. That missile was created and fired by his employees, using his resources, with his full knowledge and indifferent permission, and fired from his HQ. That makes him responsible. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt regarding the murdered Slayers that Willow found. If Angel agreed with Willow that Buffy's superpowers came from dead Slayers, then I'd say he probably was responsible. But he said he didn't believe that. (If Marcie Ross and her squad of invisible assassins are in play here... and there's a good chance they are, if she's the mystery character in the Riley one-shot... they might very well have been the ones responsible, working directly for the government.) But now it's moved well beyond the 206 Slayers, who were after all soldiers who knew they might be killed in action. Now, thanks to a parade of tremendous natural disasters and six invading demon armies, people are probably dying by the millions as we speak... civilians, women and children. Angel's reaction strongly suggests he knew this would happen eventually, but didn't expect it to be so sudden. And even then, he decided to help only because Buffy did. The good news for Angel (believe it or not) is that it's now too late to fix this simply by stopping it. The die is cast, and the world is screwed. The only way to fix it now is to un-do it, and make it so it never happens. And that's the only possible way Angel can save himself morally at this point.
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jellymoff
Ensouled Vampire
Claimer of Funn[Mo0:0]
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Post by jellymoff on Jun 8, 2010 8:52:02 GMT -5
The good news for Angel (believe it or not) is that it's now too late to fix this simply by stopping it. The die is cast, and the world is screwed. The only way to fix it now is to un-do it, and make it so it never happens. And that's the only possible way Angel can save himself morally at this point. This is a really good point, but makes me wonder: If they "undo" this and "Twilight" does not happen, then is all forgiven? Will it be like ATF where everyone still remembers, or will everyone forget what he did? I really don't want everything that happened this season to be wash, it would seem like a waste. With ATF, the character still had to deal with the ramifications of their actions. I hope that the same is true for Season 8.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jun 8, 2010 8:59:05 GMT -5
I would think they'll all remember what happened. Angel will (hopefully) still have a lot of guilt to deal with, and may feel like he's right back to square one... but it should be a lot easier for others to forgive him, and him to forgive himself, if he is able to put things right again. That's certainly the only way I'd forgive him, at this point.
Unless he's not sorry for what he did, in which case... dust him as soon as the universe allows it.
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Dorotea
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Post by Dorotea on Jun 10, 2010 13:50:17 GMT -5
The good news for Angel (believe it or not) is that it's now too late to fix this simply by stopping it. The die is cast, and the world is screwed. The only way to fix it now is to un-do it, and make it so it never happens. And that's the only possible way Angel can save himself morally at this point. Strangely enough I feel exactly the opposite way. Firstly, I believe the world WAS screwed since the ending of S7 - but now things are moving in the direction when it actually can be saved. The question with proposed 'rolling back' the Twilight is actually the question of - either (1) the world will continue as it was - i.e. 'in every generation the Slayer...' and then she dies after a short while, or (2) the world that cannot contain 1800 plus Slayers will continue to suffer for it - with all the related consequences ( ie human governments hunt for Slayers, demons hunt for Slayers, crazy mobs hunt for Slayers ) while the vampires enjoy their coming out of the coffin and the rogue bands like Simone's roam the countryside. How long would the world last with configuration like this? Therefore undoing the Twilight would make things much much worse - and in the end all the sacrifices would be for nothing. As to why you see this roll back as the 'redemption' for Angel - well, you have your view on the story and I respect it. But I don't think such 'redemption' would be worth much in view of the world decaying around.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jun 10, 2010 14:39:16 GMT -5
Therefore undoing the Twilight would make things much much worse - and in the end all the sacrifices would be for nothing. As to why you see this roll back as the 'redemption' for Angel - well, you have your view on the story and I respect it. But I don't think such 'redemption' would be worth much in view of the world decaying around. Well, if they don't undo Twilight, the world doesn't decay. It ends right now. I see undoing it as Angel's only viable path to redemption, because it's the only way right now to make right what has been done. They could let Twilight happen, in which case Angel (and Buffy, partly excused by her ignorance) are responsible for the deaths of billions. Or, they could find a way to end Twilight in progress right now, in which case he's responsible for the deaths of only, perhaps, millions. In that case, he either has to pay for those crimes (and how could he?) or be let off for them, in which case we now have a story in which you can choose to kill innocents with impunity, as long as you think you have a good reason. Twilight is now too far along, I think, to be stopped in progress. But we know it does get stopped somehow, because the world of Fray/ToYL comes about, with all demons and magic banished. And since Sunnydale no longer exists, an arc that was going to be titled "Sunnydale" would have to involve time travel, or reminiscing (at a time like this?) or non sequitur. I think the first is most likely. Making it so everything he did as Twilight is erased from the timeline is the only way Angel can make right what he's done. (As for the sacrifices being for nothing... in this scenario, they never would have happened in the first place.)
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Dorotea
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Post by Dorotea on Jun 10, 2010 15:26:55 GMT -5
Well, if they don't undo Twilight, the world doesn't decay. It ends right now. Not a fact for me. Twilight is supposed to be - in part - about triumph of base humanity over demons. See, I am like that pitbull - I won't let go of that line until I am certain it does not mean what it means. Firstly, how is Angel responsible for being chosen by the Universe and falling under the influence of Twilight? Sounds a bit one-sided to me. Secondly, millions have not died yet, and with two God-like creatures back on Earth they don't have to. On other hand , if Twilight is stopped - everything goes back to 1800 slayerettes in the world and the Universe would certainly not be returned to balance point. Which means - demons will continue to multiply as they did through entire S8. Actually coming about of the Fray word with all demons and magic banished happened BECAUSE Twilight happened not despite of it. At least that's my take on the issue 34 - remember - the Fray with her scythe image appears only after the plane of Twilight is opened - as a consequence of it being opened, not before. I take it as Fray future was confirmed as a given in a flashforward only after the Twilight happened, and if not for it - it would have still been uncertain. I have long speculated that the first attempt at 'reset' will happen via a sort of a vengeance demon spell - ala Wish - and it will be a wish of a type 'I wish that Angel never came to Sunnydale'. Thus the cover of 36 - with green zombie corpses on the cover - remember that Angel saves the Scoobies/Giles locked in the basement with poisonous gas leak ( by Marcie) ? Then there possibly will be re-reset - same way as in Wish.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jun 10, 2010 15:50:30 GMT -5
Well, we're obviously separated by vast differences where Twilight, Angel, and his culpability are concerned. I guess we may as well leave it at that until we know more. I certainly hope Angel wasn't responsible for his actions as Twilight, but if so the writers haven't done a very good job of conveying that.
I'm not sure how Twilight can be a "triumph of base humanity over the demons" as Sephrilian said, since the complete destruction of "base humanity" seems to be well in progress. Either Seph is a liar or there's some big twist coming up as to what Twilight actually is.
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Dorotea
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Post by Dorotea on Jun 10, 2010 17:56:20 GMT -5
Well, we're obviously separated by vast differences where Twilight, Angel, and his culpability are concerned. I guess we may as well leave it at that until we know more. I certainly hope Angel wasn't responsible for his actions as Twilight, but if so the writers haven't done a very good job of conveying that. I'm not sure how Twilight can be a "triumph of base humanity over the demons" as Sephrilian said, since the complete destruction of "base humanity" seems to be well in progress. Either Seph is a liar or there's some big twist coming up as to what Twilight actually is. Agreed to disagree then. As a parting shot though, I want to speculate a little - what strikes me as very important and what seems to be not discussed at all in any of the S8 threads is the complete relevance of the latest Shanshu prophecy reading in AtF ( possible destruction of the world with Angel standing over a pile of corpses both human and demonic as the last MVP) to what is actually happening in S8 34-35. Or not happening - depending on our interpretation. It looks like this Twilight thing was what Joss had had in mind for Angel since AtF at least...
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jun 10, 2010 21:20:25 GMT -5
Yep. I've been insisting (on another board) that we're seeing the Shanshu being fulfilled right here. And I think it's especially interesting that both souled vampires are on hand for it.
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Post by wenxina on Jun 10, 2010 21:48:15 GMT -5
Cavemen vs astronauts part deux then?
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